Talk:Prem Rawat

Project status as of October 6 11, 2004 May 26, 2005 (updated by ≈ jossi ≈)

Here are the main points of project status at this time:

• The overall project structure now appears stable as a main biographical article, a criticism article (linked from main page), and a teachings article (linked from main page), with other ancillary articles as well.
• The major revision to the main article is online, accepted and stable; its "dispute tags" have been removed
• The criticism article has been fully negotiated, its "dispute tags" have been removed, and it has been marked in the edit history as a "baseline reference consensus version" for future editors' use
• Characteristic of the classic successful compromise, everyone is a little unhappy with the results but everyone can also live with them
• We have commitments from our editors' group to protect these articles from vandalism attacks and to ask their respective constituencies to respect the articles (and our hard work!) as well
• Existing ancillary topic articles such as Elan Vital, Hans Ji Maharaj, Techniques of Knowledge and Divine Light Mission may see some work in the coming days; no additional ancillary articles appear to be on the horizon, but who knows?
• New articles Current teachings of Prem Rawat and Evolution of teachings of Prem Rawat are being currently developed. A lively discussion about these articles is being held at Talk:Current teachings of Prem Rawat
• A preparatory stub has been created for the teachings article, and I am informed Richard G is close to presenting a first draft version

Having come to the end of the intensive edit period, I am content to have this status section now scroll off into the archives. Anyone who feels it should continue to be maintained, however, is of course free to do so. And now I give you all the secret Wikipedia salute! --Gary D 20:04, Oct 5, 2004 (UTC)

• Updated by Senegal, based on previous edit by Gary D. --Senegal 03:38, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Updated by ≈ jossi ≈, based on previous edit by Senegal ≈ jossi ≈ 01:08, May 27, 2005 (UTC)

Critical information and copyrights

Elan Vital has a history of complaining to the DCMA about copyright violations by the critical wesbites. The last complaint caused one critical website to be offline last week but was found unjustified by the DCMA and is now online again. Critical followers of course see these complaints as attempts at censorship, not as genuine, justified concern by Elan Vital about copyright violations. [1] (http://prem-rawat-critique.org/) Andries 20:36, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

That is interesting. Can you provide more details about this purported DMCA case? I searched and could not find any reference to a recent DMCA ruling on a critic's website. My take is this is just expremie propaganda. --Zappaz 05:26, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I doubt whether DMCA even made the effort of a ruling because the complaint by Larry Leblang was flimsy. He had used a template and had not even specified what and where in the website was a copyright violation. I did notice that the website was offline last week. Andries 05:35, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I took a look in the archive and did not see a clear consensus. It is not for us to decide the copyright status of third-party websites. They claim fair use- who are we to say differently? I am amenable to moving this to Criticism of Prem Rawat until that article's pending merger back with this article is completed. Cheers, -Willmcw 05:44, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)

Please note that many links to that site are already in Criticism of Prem Rawat. Also note that there is no such a "pending" merge. Read the summaries of both articles, the consensus edit, and the notes on last VfD on attempt on Criticism of Prem Rawat. --Zappaz 20:35, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The last one I saw recommended a merger. It is clearly called for. We can talk about that later. Cheers, -Willmcw 00:54, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

Nope. Read the archived VfD for Criticism of Prem Rawat a couple of months ago... --Zappaz 15:26, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Willmcw that from an encyclopedia view there should be a merger but there are several practical problems that make the merger very difficult i.e. size issues, mutual distrust of the opposing factions editing this article, and the fact that the people who have edited the Prem Rawat related articles (incl. me) do not want to re-start an exhausting, arduous edit process. In practice, the merger can only be done by somebody who is perceived as neutral by the opposing factions, such as happened before by user Gary_D who has left Wikipedia. Andries 19:42, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

None of those are insurmountable impediments. It's not on my list of "things to do" but it is a worthwhile goal. -Willmcw 20:25, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

Will, could you explain why do you consider a merger of the articles a "worthwhile goal"? I would be interested to understand why do you think so. --Zappaz 12:03, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

While hypertext allows for the easy interconnection of articles, I believe that individual articles should attempt to treat their topics comprehensively. We don't have "Prem Rawat, part one" and "Prem Rawat, part two." A biography of a person should depict both the good and the bad about a person. To put the good in one article and the bad in another is an artificial split that leads to two incomplete articles. That's my basic opinion on it. -Willmcw 23:28, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

I see. Please note that the Criticism of Prem Rawat article, is 'not a biographical account: It is a collection of allegations made by a small group of ex-members and rebuttals by supporters. On the other hand, this article is a biography, and includes the salient points of the controversy (e.g. succession, family rift, criticism, etc.) There are other articles covering other topics, such as teachings, organizations, etc. I do not believe that this article is about "the good" and the other about "the bad", not at all. --Zappaz 13:16, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Also, I didn't see the link in the list on Criticism of Prem Rawat, so I've added it there. -Willmcw 00:57, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

I found some links on Criticism of Prem Rawat from "pro-Prem" sites that were already on this page, so I deleted the duplicates. -Willmcw 08:24, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

Excellent. I also done the same here, deleted links already listed in the Criticism of Prem Rawat article. Also deleted from there a 'pro' site that was a dead link. --Zappaz 15:24, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

See also

I see that there's been some dispute on the "See also" section. There are several articles about Prem Rawat and related topics. For some reason (?) they are categorized under "Maharaji". A template would allow us to group articles into a logical format and avoid the need for "see also" sections entirely. Any objection to a "Prem Rawat" template? -Willmcw 08:45, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

Good idea. Done. I will add the template to all related articles. --Zappaz 15:22, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

'See Also ' discussion

Dear Zappaz,
          I have just re-deleted my own See Also section after finding the link-box at the very bottom of the page. This is the first Wiki article that I've ever seen such a link-box. Is this format a common Wiki format?

Scott P. 20:13, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)