Talk:Parliament of Canada

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WHY is the FRENCH page smaller than the polski page??? someone needs to flush out the french page, come on people, this is a CANADA page!

Contents

1 Splitting Parliament of Canada and Parliament Hill 2 Federal/provincial responsibilities: conflicts 2.1 Successful FAC nomination 3 Some minor quibbles 4 Vandalism? 5 Too many capitalized phrases? 6 Parliament House

Splitting Parliament of Canada and Parliament Hill

It seems to me that in an encyclopaedia, the Parliament Buildings would have their own article, if they were of sufficient importance to be included, rather than lumped in with the Parliament of Canada.

Does anybody else think this article should be split? Cafemusique 21:19 Apr 18, 2003 (UTC)

I attempted to do so when I wrote the article but could find no graceful way to do it. I don't think it's necessary. - Montréalais

I think it is fine. Why should it be split? But as it is about the Parliament Buildings not parliament, this article should be called [[Parliament Building of Canada]]. ÉÍREman 22:30 Apr 18, 2003 (UTC)

That's not true, the first three paragraphs are about the Parliament as an institution. (Furthermore, since there are at least three main buildings, I would suggest Parliament Hill if anything.) - Montréalais

The first three parapraphs are a passage description of parliament but nowhere up to encyclopædic standards. The rest is about the building. Parliament Hill is unworkable because it is an unrecognised term outside Canada. An article on the Parliament of Canada should be about that; the nature of parliament, its membership, the constitution, the process of legislative enactment. the role of the crown, etc. That requires an article devoted to that topic. The opening paragraphs here are enough to include in an article on the buildings, but not enough for a serious encyclopædic article on parliament itself. That requires a separate article, with this becomiong Parliament Buildings of Canada. ÉÍREman 22:52 Apr 18, 2003 (UTC)

If the article is to focus on the buildings, then the focus should probably be made clear earlier...that said, I think the first few paragraphs do provide a stub from which a fuller article on the Canadian parliament could be written. As for your comment about naming the resulting article, I would think that, as long as [[Parliament Hill]] doesn't conflict with another article, I can't imagine why it would be a problem to name it as it is normally referred to. That said, I'm quite aware that this is my first day here, so I'm not well-versed enough on the naming conventions here to engage in any meaningful discussion on that topic. Cafemusique 23:29 Apr 18, 2003 (UTC)

In choosing titles, we have to make at least some stab at creating an internationally recognised name. If the building has that name officially and unambiguously then it should be used. But as far as I know, it is simply a generalised name applied but not the actual name. The generalised name used for the Irish Government Buildings is Merrion Street. Wiki does not put the Irish Government Buildings in as Merrion Street but as Irish Government Buildings. The Irish parliament is in a building officially called Leinster House so it is in under that name. If it hadn't that name and was just generally known as Kildare Street we wouldn't use that name to refer to the location of Oireachtas Éireann. That doesn't mean you can't create stubs saying that Parliament Hill/Merrion Street is the location of whatever and a generalised word applied to whatever. But the article, in the absence of either a specific name or an international recognised name would be to call things what they are; the Parliament Buildings of Canada, The Irish Government Buildings, etc. ÉÍREman 23:53 Apr 18, 2003 (UTC)

"Names of articles should be the most commonly used name" according to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names). Parliament Hill contains only the buildings that are the subject of this article, and a large lawn upon which demonstrations are often made. It is an unambiguous reference to the place in question. (In the two examples you cited, I think it was a case where the street name is often used. In that case, it would be ambiguous, because, I assume, there are other locations on that street which are not the subject of that article.) As long as it does not conflict with another place, I do not follow your arguement. (Yes, I do know that there are other geographical naming conventions, but the only ones I saw are still under development and refer to cities, not to places generally.) I'm not trying to provoke you...I'm just trying to reconcile what I'm reading here with what I'm finding in the help pages. - Cafemusique 09:38 Apr 19, 2003 (UTC)

We use most common recognisable name, not merely most common used. Most common can mean most common in a country. Wiki doesn't use names that are most common if they aren't known to anyone outside its borders, without linked pages, disambigulation pages, etc. For example often the most common name is one in a different language in a large state. Wiki has got to use forms that are internationally not merely nationally recognisable. And no, Kildare Street and Merrion Street have no other means but the Irish parliament and Irish government buildings and known to millions are meaning that. In the case of Merrion Street, that is undoubtedly the most common name, with no alternative meanings, but because it is exclusively an internal national meaning that means absolutely nothing outside Ireland it is not an option. ÉÍREman 20:04 Apr 19, 2003 (UTC)

As a further complication, note that any article about the buildings will include information about the land, precinct, and scenic location, which are not covered by the term "Parliament buildings." I think if any title is used, it should be Parliament Hill. If that fails to please, we should leave it put. - Montréalais

Besides which, AFAIK, "Parliament Hill" is an Official Geographical Name. - Montréalais

I've just been visiting the Hill's web site (http://www.parliamenthill.gc.ca/text/home_e.html), there's lots of great stuff in there on history and layout. also of interest is the expansion and renovation plans for the next 20 years. Lots of article fodder there, could easily support a separate entry. Radagast 03:30, Mar 7, 2004 (UTC)

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There is no reference to the Queen as an element of the Parliament of Canada as is stated in Canada's constitution. See: http://www.parl.gc.ca/information/library/inside/institutions-e.htm. I am adding a reference to the Queen in the first paragraph. Alex756 04:58, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Good call. - Montréalais 06:19, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Federal/provincial responsibilities: conflicts

I removed the following sentence: When, however, a federal law conflicts with a provincial law, the federal law takes precedence.

I believe that one of the differences in the Canada/US system is that neither federal nor provincial laws supsersede each other. If there is a conflict, either the federal government or provincial government has acted outside their sphere of responsibility. The law belonging to the government with responsibility for that subject stays in force. What the federal government does have is outlined in section 91 of the Constitution Act, 1867 (formerly named the British North America Act): "It shall be lawful for [the Parliament of Canada], to make Laws...in relation to all Matters not coming within the Classes of Subjects...assigned exclusively to...the Provinces;"

In other words there is a so-called "residual power," giving the federal government power over anything not enumerated as being a provincial responsibility. - Cafemusique 11:22, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

In the case of immigration and agriculture areas, however, the federal law does indeed take precedence:

In each Province the Legislature may make Laws in relation to Agriculture in the Province, and to Immigration into the Province; and it is hereby declared that the Parliament of Canada may from Time to Time Make Laws in relation to Agriculture in all or any of the Provinces, and to Immigration into all or any of the Provinces; and any Law of the Legislature of a Province relative to Agriculture or to Immigration shall have effect in and for the Province as long and as far as it is not repugnant to any Act of the Parliament of Canada. (VI, Sec. 95)

-- Emsworth 20:37, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Successful FAC nomination

-- Emsworth 22:18, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• Support. Zerbey 23:07, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Taxman 16:40, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)
• Support. I always like to see a reference/further reading book/article mentioned, though. Jeronimo 06:52, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Giano 17:03, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Well written, comprehensive. Can we get one external picture of the building? func(talk) 21:20, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Some minor quibbles

The discussion of a FAC nomination made me re-read the article in its entirety. This, in turn, gave rise to several minor questions. Before I made any changes, I thought I should raise these points here:

1. The opening sentence describes Parliament as "Canada's democratic legislative branch." I wonder if we should delete "democratic." Just one paragraph later, the article says that the House of Commons is "democratically elected." I'm sure there are many Canadians who would argue that the Senate is not democratic.

2. The second paragraph says that "The House of Commons is the only part of Parliament which holds control over the Prime Minister and Cabinet." Is this accurate. Doesn't the Governor General have some power in this regard? For example, didn't Governor General Byng refuse to call an election when requested by Mackenzie King? Similarly, doesn't the Senate have some control over Cabinet? Can't the Senate refuse to pass cabinet-sponsored legislation? Is this not, in fact, very real "control"?

3. In what sense was there "representative government" in 1791? Certainly there was an assembly of representatives, but was the government responsible to it?

4. Given the British connection, was there ever any chance that Canada would adopt an American congressional system? If not, why bother including the sentences on why Canada opted instead for a British system? As it stands, it implies that a congressional system is the norm, and an explanation is needed for why Canada did not adopt it.

5. Didn't Canada gain power over foreign affairs before 1931? Didn't the country begin appointing ambassadors and signing international treaties in the 1920s? Didn't it join international organizations in 1919-1920?

6. Does a constitutional amendment now require "two-thirds of the provinces" or is it two-thirds of the provinces representing at least half of the Canadian population?

7. The article says that three of the seats in the House of Commons "are reserved for the provinces." What does this mean?

8. The article says that "every Parliament has been dissolved before the end of the five-year term." Does this apply to the period during the First World War? HistoryBA 18:04, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• Reponding using your point numbers:
  • 1. I would agree that the word "democratic" should be deleted where you refer.
  • 6. You are right. It seems a bit cumbersome, though, and I wonder whether there is a real need to explain the complexities of passage of Constitutional amendments in an article on the Parliament of Canada. I think it might be simplest to simply delete the following passage: Most amendments require the consent of the Canadian Senate, the Canadian House of Commons, and the Legislative Assemblies of two-thirds of the provinces. The unanimous consent of provincial Legislative Assemblies is required for certain amendments, including those affecting the Queen, the Governor General, provincial Lieutenant Governors, the official positions of the English and French languages, and the Supreme Court of Canada.
  • 7. I believe that this should read that three seats are reserved for the territories (NWT, Yukon, and Nunavut).
  • 8. No, it does not. (See 1917 Canadian election for details.) - Cafemusique 19:09, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

1 addressed; 2 clarified; 3 clarified; 4 clarified; 6 addressed; 7 clarified (should be "territories," not "provinces"); 8 clarified. For #5, Canada may have joined international organisations—it even had a High Commissioner in the U.K.—but it did not, I believe, control foreign affairs; that was a task for the Sovereign of the U.K. as such, not as King of Canada. -- Emsworth 19:13, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

1. Has indeed been addressed. 2. Now seems even more confusing. What does it mean to say "The House of Commons is the only part of Parliament which controls the term the Prime Minister and Cabinet"? 3. I don't see how this addresses the point. The government (as opposed to the legislature) was not representative. Or was it? Could someone clarify? 4. I don't see how this addresses my point either. I am saying that there is no reason to specifically say that Canadians rejected the American model. The British model would have been the default position, not the American model. 5. I don't get the distinction. If Canada is appointing ambassadors, signing treaties, and joining international organizations, doesn't it control its foreign policy? What is missing? 6. Has been addressed. 7. Has been addressed. 8. Has been addressed. HistoryBA 23:23, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

2. Should read "the term of the Prime Minister." 3. The legislature, I think, was indeed representative; members of the lower House were elected. 4. The U.S. model was a model insofar as the province-federal relationship was concerned. 5. It is true that the Dominions tendered advice on foreign affairs to the monarch during the 1920s. But it is also true that Canada did not achieve full autonomy—over both domestic and external affairs—until the Statute of Westminster. So it is, I think, accurate to state that complete control was not achieved until 1931 (if the article does not state exactly this, then it may be changed). -- Emsworth 00:10, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

2. I am not sure I agree. Most prime ministers voluntarily end their terms or have them terminated by the electorate. Seldom does the House of Commons determine a prime minister's term. 3. Once again, the issue is not whether the legislature was representative. I have explicitly accepted this point. The issue is whether the government was representative, which is what the article states. 4. You are right, and the changes made earlier do address my point. 5. The issue is not whether Canada had "full autonomy over both domestic and external affairs," but rather whether it had "power over foreign affairs," as the article states. If a country can sign its own treaties, appoint its own ambassadors, and join international organizations, then I would argue that it has "power over foreign affairs." This existed before the Statute of Westminster. If I am not mistaken, the Canadian government stated in the 1920s that Canada did not have to go to war when the British went to war. In other words, Canada could pursue its own foreign policy. Would you object to my deleting the phrase "including power over foreign affairs" from the article? HistoryBA 00:35, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I will not object to changes you wish to make in regards to 2, 3, or 5. -- Emsworth 00:49, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Vandalism?

What's this "Wikipedia rocks!" in the beginning of the article? I tried to remove it but it is not visible in "Edit Article." What's going on?

• It was already deleted from the page. Perhaps you were looking at a cached version of the page? - Cafemusique 07:33, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Too many capitalized phrases?

In my opinion, this article uses far too many capitalized phrases. I knocked the capitals down, but was promptly reverted. This is the first time I have ever been accused of being too American, and I must admit that it made me hot under the collar for a few minutes. Now that I have calmed down, I'd like to see if we can reach a consensus. I think if you consult even the most stylistically conservative Canadian newspaper or style guide, you will see that "prime minister", "speaker", "member of Parliament", "governor general", and so on, are not capitalized in contemporary Canadian style (unless immediately next to a person's name). What does everybody else think? Indefatigable 22:32, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I did not intend to accuse you of being too American, but rather of using capitals reminiscent of the style prevalent in American English as opposed to International English. Nevertheless, I apologize unreservedly if you took offence. The Manual of Style states this:

Remember in the case of a prime minister, both letters are capitalized or lower-cased together, except, obviously, when it starts a sentence. Again, when being used generically (that is, when talking generally about prime ministers) the office is lower-cased. When reference is made to a specific office, upper case is generally used. So "there are many prime ministers around the world." but "The British Prime Minister Tony Blair, said today . . . " [...] A good rule of thumb is whether a definite article (the) or an indefinite article (a) is used. If the is used, capitalization often follows. If a is used, the lowercase is preferred.

I believe that capitals are supposed to be used whenever referring to a person by that person's formal or official title. Thus, "the President of the United States," "the Speaker of the House of Commons," "the Governor General of Canada," "the Queen of the United Kingdom," etc. On the other hand, "some presidents," "a speaker," "previous governors general," "queens." -- Emsworth 23:45, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Parliament House

Could we have an article on the actual building in which the Parliament meets, to add to my new category Category:Legislative buildings? Adam 11:32, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

• I don't believe that there's much reason for it. There is already a Parliament Hill article. I don't know that there is enough distinctive about the Centre Block of the Parliament Buildings (for there is no building called Parliament House) to warrant an article about it. - Cafemusique 22:39, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I have added a category link to Parliament Hill. Adam 06:17, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)