Talk:Papal States

I just changed "Papal states" to "Papal States", which now disagrees with the article title, unfortunately, so maybe I shouldn't have done that... Okay, I don't know much about the history of the region in question, but I'd thought it was sort of like a country, so that its name would be capitalised, like "England" and so on. Am I wrong? -- Oliver P. 02:36 Feb 16, 2003 (UTC)

The Papal States were a country, so the capital S is correct. -- Zoe

Correct Zoe. Maybe you, I and Oliver should set up a sub-group called PNHC - Proper Nouns Have Capitals and wage a crusade on Wiki!!!! :) JtdIrL 03:51 Mar 1, 2003 (UTC)

Hey! Wait up! I want to join too! Tannin

heh heh! but no, actually i'm a member of a secret society which plans to destroy all capital letters, and all this is just a front... ;) -- oliver

Or even call ourselves the Capital Letters Liberation Front - or even Capital Letters On Proper nouns. Here comes CLOP to the rescue. JtdIrL 04:19 Mar 1, 2003 (UTC)

Okay, I've renounced my membership of the Secret Society for the Destruction of Capital Letters, because its acronym is unpronounceable. "CLOP" sounds so much nicer. :) -- Oliver P. 05:02 Mar 1, 2003 (UTC) (Sorry, I'm talking complete rubbish... I need sleep...)

Beginning date

The first paragraph of this article implies that "the Papal States" effectively ended in 1870, but it says nothing about when they started. The article itself seems a bit vague on this seemingly important point. Would that beginning be:

• 321 C.E., when the Church was first "allowed to hold and transfer property";
• sometime "after the 600s", as "large gifts became less common";
• 754 C.E., when "Church control became more explicit";
• 781 C.E., when "Charlemagne codified the regions over which the Pope would be temporal sovereign";

… or some other year or range of years? — Jeff Q 18:34, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)

It's not at all clear. To go backwards, the Papal States in their modern configuration did not really emerge until the early 16th century, when the popes finally turned their theoretical sovereignty over the area into real sovereignty. Before the 13th century or so, the Pope's temporal domain was considered to be part of the Holy Roman Empire - even later, this idea vaguely survived. I would say sometime in the 8th century. Before that, the areas that would become the Papal States were pretty clearly the "Exarchate of Ravenna" and the "Duchy of Rome", which were part of the Byzantine Empire. But for a long time after that, it's very, very unclear. I wouldn't want to actually state a beginning date, because it would be misleading. But you're right that we need to be more explicit about it. john k 02:06, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Merge suggestion

I think Prisoner in the Vatican should be merged into the appropriate section of this article. — OwenBlacker 00:30, Jun 30, 2004 (UTC)

Pepin vs. Pippin?

I so know that I shouldn't open this entirely pointless can of worms, but: why the changes from Pippin to Pepin? (Which didn't even result in a consistent spelling in the article, I note.) When I rewrote the article, I changed spellings to Pippin because the title of the main Wikipedia page for the individual in question is spelled that way (Pippin III). Aaaaannnd a quick glance at the talk page there seems to indicate that this is part of a pointless argument about French and German history. Sigh.

So, John Kenney, why the change? And if Pippin must become Pepin, why must he be Pepin the Short instead of Pepin III? My naggling copy editor sense wants it consistent with the article it's linking to, and, failing that, to be at least consistent within the article. So I'd like to put the Pippins back, but if that's going to result in some kind of painfully lame edit war about an issue that is not in the least worth it, just let me know in advance and I'll make the remaining Pippins Pepins instead. --Jfruh 17:47, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

So nobody's responded to this, so I guess I'm going to re-Pippin the Pepins. --Jfruh 02:37, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well, he should be Pepin the Short because that's what he's actually called by historians. He's not called Pepin III by any appreciable number of people. And the trend is certainly for Pippins to become Pepins, rather than vice versa. Why that should be, I can't say, but it is certainly the case. - Nunh-huh 02:43, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Pepin the Short is, indeed, the more common name. If I left it inconsistent within this article, that was unintentional. But I literally cannot think of any books that I have read which call him "Pippin" rather than "Pepin." Even the Shorter Cambridge Medieval History, which is rather old, calls him Pepin. And more recent books certainly do. john k 02:56, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm trying to delete Pepin the Short so I can move Pippin III there, but I keep getting error messages. john k 02:57, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Like I said, I don't care; I just want it consistent in the article. It was in the Donation of Pipwhoever link that the inconsistency lay; I fixed.

I would love it to be consistent within Wikipedia too, but I suppose that's too much to ask. --Jfruh 03:33, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I already moved Donation of Pippin to Donation of Pepin and changed that article - sorry for missing the change on that, I was busy trying to delete Pepin the Short so I could move Pippin III there. Still no luck, weirdly. But I'll get to it soon enough. That Frankish son of a bastard will feel my wrath. john k 03:34, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Out of curiosity, how would Pepin (or, since he was almost certainly illiterate, his more educated contemporaries) have spelled his name? Is it Pepinus in Latin? Is there any attestation as to his "real" Frankish name? --Jfruh 12:36, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Pippin is the Germanic form - presumably this is what he called himself. I would assume "Pepinus" is the Latin, although I'm not sure. Written documents from the time would have used the Latin form. john k 13:19, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)