Talk:Origins of the American Civil War

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Contents

1 PROSOUTHERN LINKS 2 Timing of Secession 3 Morrill tariff 4 Who are the radicals? 5 Fugitive Slaves 6 Free-Soilers vs. Radicals 7 Ongoing Edits

PROSOUTHERN LINKS

Does anyone know any websites that defends the confederacy and makes the arguement that the Confederacy was forced ionto the war? If so please post them on the talk page.

Timing of Secession

Initial states to secede	% Slaves in Population	% of White Families Owning Slaves
South Carolina	57	47
Georgia	48	38
Florida	44	35
Alabama	45	35
Mississippi	55	49
Louisiana	47	31
Texas	30	29
States seceding later	% Slaves in Population	% of White Families Owning Slaves
Virginia	31	27
North Carolina	33	29
Tennessee	25	25
Arkansas	28	20
Had Confederate factions	% Slaves in Population	% of White Families Owning Slaves
Kentucky	20	24
Missouri	10	13
Remained in Union	% Slaves in Population	% of White Families Owning Slaves
Maryland	13	15
Delaware	2	4

And the purpose of posting this chart here is what now??? Rangerdude 05:10, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Morrill tariff

The article on the Morrill tariff contains a lengthy section on its relation to the origins of the Civil War. Yet I see that it is barely mentioned in this article. I'd like to encourage editors of these two articles to find some agreement on its importance and on the best place to have a long review its influence. Cheers, -Willmcw 00:48, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

If you had bothered to look at the archives before continuing on your deconstructive quest, you would've discovered that the Morrill Tariff was discussed extensively. It was decided upon then that the issue should be mentioned and linked in the context of the nullification/tariff controversy section. Elaborations were left to the article on the Morrill Tariff itself. Furthermore, I do not see how the two articles are in disagreement. One is simply more detailed than the other, which is as it should be given that this article is an overview with links to many subjects that are addressed in greater detail.Rangerdude

I did look in the archives, and found substantial disagreement over the importance of the tariff. It appears as if the dispute has not been settled, and editors who were involved in discussing it here should be aware of the discussion there. Cheers, -Willmcw 01:45, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

You must not have looked very closely then (big surprise there). The dispute was settled and a compromise version was adopted and agreed upon by all the parties. See the section here Talk:Origins_of_the_American_Civil_War/Archive_4#Proposed_compromise. The proposed compromise was then posted in a sandbox here [1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:172/Origins_of_the_American_Civil_War) followed by a lengthy discussion and edits to it followed by the adoption of the current text following no objections [2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Origins_of_the_American_Civil_War/Archive_4#Any_objections.3F) Rangerdude 01:51, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your input, RD. I know you were already aware of the content of the Morrill tariff article. I was posting this notice to draw the attention of other editors who may not have been aware of it. The "compromise" version of this article appears, to my eyes, to place a far lower level of importance on the tariff than the content of the "Morrill tariff" article does. Cheers, -Willmcw 01:59, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I still don't see any inconsistency. One mentions it in an overview and the other mentions it in detail. The Morrill Tariff article also existed at the time of that discussion, was linked to repeatedly then, and was read by the participants who reached the current consensus. If you have something positive to contribute to this article (or the rest of wikipedia for that matter) by all means do so. Continuously deconstructing the contributions of others is very childish though and borders on outright vandalism.Rangerdude 02:06, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Posting a notice on a talk page does not border on vandalism. Your personal comments about my editing have no place in this forum. As for linking to Morrill tariff, the link to it in this article was not even active until I fixed it. -Willmcw 02:11, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Continuously deconstructing articles without any positive contribution and loading them with snide remarks that unnecessarily qualify commonly acknowledged information is vandalism, Will. When was the last time you actually added something positive to an article, BTW? I gave you a change the other day by suggesting you act on adding a McPherson photo to that article, yet you could not even do that. There's been no deficit of your deconstructive activities on other articles though.

You are also incorrect about the link. According to its page history, the big-T Morrill Tariff header has been redirecting to the small-t Morrill tariff article since January 8th. Rangerdude 02:30, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

A few days before President Buchanan left office, for example, Congress, with the absense of Southern members, passed the Morrill Tariff Act, which increased duties and brought the rates up to approximately what they had been before 1846-- an action that many in the South found comparable to the "Tariff of Abominations" that had triggered the Nullification Crisis.

Nope, it doesn't redirect. That's why I fixed it. -Willmcw 02:38, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I was referring to the archived discussion. It was linked to the article correctly when we were discussing it. Don't know why the main article had a broken link. Thanks for fixing it though.Rangerdude 02:41, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Also, I haven't forgotten about the McPherson picture. I don't have a public-domain source for a picture of him, but next time I go to New Jersey I plan to take my camera. Cheers, -Willmcw 07:42, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Who are the radicals?

The word radical is used 32 times in this article, most often in regard to Republicans, Free-soilers,...

Which of the following does it NOT refer to, and which DOES it refer to?

• those who believed all men have a right to liberty
• those opposed to slavery
• those who wanted slavery abolished immediately
• those who wanted a program to have slavery abolished voluntarily
• those opposed to fugitive slave laws
• those who thought blacks should be citizens with equal rights
• those opposed to expansion of slavery to territories

? --JimWae 01:36, 2005 Feb 19 (UTC)

Jim - "Radical Republicans" was a term used both in the 1860's and today by historians to distinguish a specific wing of the Republican Party. When applied to abolitionists, I suppose it would refer the John Brown types who used violence and intimidation Rangerdude 05:32, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• Radical Republicans was used more clearly during Reconstruction era (United States) after the war. This article is about the "causes' of the war.--JimWae 06:38, 2005 Feb 19 (UTC)

You are incorrect. The notion of a Radical Republicans faction was present before the 1860 Chicago nominating convention. One of the reasons they picked Lincoln was because he came from the moderate faction. Rangerdude 19:47, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• I am not "incorrect" - if you read what I wrote. "radical" - in this article - is another notion that carries more POV than info.--JimWae 20:34, 2005 Feb 19 (UTC)

"Radical Republican" is used in this period as well. People like Sumner, Wade, and so forth were seen as Radicals when compared with moderates like Seward or Lincoln, or more conservative, Whiggish types like Edward Bates. john k 07:48, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• but what distinguishes a radical from a non-radical in the list I gave? Shouldn't the article make some attempt to say who the lower case radicals are it refers to 32 times?--JimWae 08:14, 2005 Feb 19 (UTC)

I think it's more about attitude to compromise than it is about the actual position held. Most Republicans (except the very conservative) were opposed to slavery in principle and didn't think it should be expanded to the territories. The Radicals thought this as well, but approached somewhat closer to being abolitionists. But the real difference is in willingness to use extreme rhetoric and unwillingness to compromise, not in actual policy. john k 16:02, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• It is not clear in article if "radical" refers to the same thing each time it is used. The article needs fixing--JimWae 17:32, 2005 Feb 19 (UTC)

Jim - You seem to be failing to grasp something very basic here. You are still ARBITRARILY CHANGING uses of the word "radical" that you do not like to "free soiler." It does not matter whether you personally think "free soiler" sounds good as a replacement. If the original sentence was not referring specifically to free soilers then you should not change it to free soilers! If you want to change all the uses of the word "radical" to something else please do so individually so the changes can be reviewed more easily and please make a coherent, logical case for your change when asked. The word replacement approach you are employing right now won't cut it and meets objection from both myself and other editors who have also commented on it here.

The way I see it, the consensus is currently three to one that any attempt to address this issue should be approached with due care and in a way that does NOT drastically overhaul its use or placement in the article. This has been pointed out to you repeatedly. Yet here you are, plowing ahead with massive and largely arbitrary word substitutions anyway. I'll ask right now that you revert your latest sweep for the word "radical" to its previous form. Once that is done please proceed by taking them on a case by case basis that we may easily review and, if necessary, discuss. Thanks. Rangerdude 05:09, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Fugitive Slaves

As I have argued before, we still need to rework the article's discussion of the fugitive slave laws, which the secessionists themselves listed as much as any other factor in their secession documents and statements. (See Jim Epperson's Causes of the Civil War site (http://members.aol.com/jfepperson/causes.html) for examples.) Given its centrality, it should probably get its own sub-section. I would suggest placing it below "Slavery in the West" and above "The Antebellum South and the Union." I will write something up in the next couple of days if there is no strong and substantive objection.

• Now there's a topic on which Republicans disagreed --JimWae 23:29, 2005 Feb 19 (UTC)

I object. There is enough discussion in various sections. 172 23:42, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• the word fugitive appears in the text 6 times. 4 in one paragraph, once in 2 others widely-separated. I do not object to further treatment & explanation of different opinions of northerners on Fugitive Slave Laws.
  • I have replaced about 27 or 32 instances of "radical", trying to make as much sense of the text as I could. Quite often "free-soiler" seemed to be the best substitute. I suppose, for the author, a "radical" was often anyone who had objection to the extension of slavery, and said so --JimWae 23:51, 2005 Feb 19 (UTC)

Jim - I reverted your replacements of "radical" because in the majority of cases they simply substituted words like "abolitionist" in their place, or removed them when they were appropriate (e.g. references to the "Republican Radicals" or "Radical Republicans," which WERE a known political faction at the time). If you wish to reduce their number in this article that is fine, but please exercise greater care in the alternatives you promote. "Radical" is not always synonymous with "abolitionist" or "free soiler" Rangerdude 00:09, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I second this. The use of the term radical is careful, measured relative to the times and other factions of the Republican Party, paying attention to the relevant academic literature. 172 00:14, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• how can anyone distinguish that from POV if NO attempt is made to say what position they took? Right now, it's mostly indistinguishable from anyone publicly opposed to spread of slavery - except when it seems to change to something even less specific in some paragraphs. As far as names go, it seems to be the original Free-Soilers --JimWae 02:00, 2005 Feb 20 (UTC)

• pay attention - for the 3rd time, the word was NOT capitalized. Now if it had some specific meaning pre-1860, how about saying what it was? Maybe the author could shed some light. The way it is used, most of those sentences are exceptionally vague and not worthy of any encyclopedia. Anybody would have trouble getting an appropriate synonym in most cases--JimWae 00:50, 2005 Feb 20 (UTC)

Then capitalize it if it makes you happy! Simply removing it every time it appears and replacing it with non-synonymous words like "abolitionist" doesn't cut it though. Rangerdude 02:25, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• that's being evasive to issue--JimWae 03:01, 2005 Feb 20 (UTC)

Free-Soilers vs. Radicals

Jim, Benjamin Wade was not a Free Soiler - he was a Whig. I think you've in other situations been a bit too adamant about replacing whig with free soiler. The anti-slavery wing of the Whig Party was seen as "radical," but shouldn't be called Free Soilers. I'll add that I think you're right in some of your marginal notes that what is being said about non-extension doesn't make any sense, and I think that stylistically you've made some improvements. I'll add that the use of Radical was overly broad in the older version. I note one instance that you didn't change, where it refers to Seward and Cameron as radicals - Seward was certainly a moderate, and Cameron was a corrupt former Democrat who was mostly a Republican because he hated Buchanan afaicr. Seward was perhaps seen as somewhat too radical given some remarks he had made (the irrepressible conflict speech, notably), but he was not from a distinctly different branch of the party than Lincoln - both had remained Whigs long after the party had ceased to be viable, for instance. I think that we can probably work this out to come to a workable compromise here. john k 19:47, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

---

• Thanks for the info - I've made the changes & welcome more suggestions.
• Seward had a "radical" past - but Greeley objected in 1860 that he was too moderate. Others had run against Whigs - as Dem & Liberty. I have a philosophy background & know when text is pushing judgement instead of information. I plan on making more changes, however to make changes I have to familiarize myself with details I've not cared about before. Why me?--JimWae 20:16, 2005 Feb 20 (UTC)
  • Moral arguments & arguments of consistency with DoI had been around long-time, but had not become policy & were even kept out of political debate in interest of party unity & national unity.
  • World-wide, slavery was being abolished
  • Economic self-interest led to moral arguments being taken more seriously
  • with new lands, some policy had to be developed.
    • True, there was competition over which economic system would prevail in the territories
    • But also, if one's convinced slavery is wrong - letting slavery expand would just make it harder to get rid of it later.
  • New party formed. It is POV to repeatedly say it was sectional as if it were purposely so. It simply started with a platform that barely a single southerner could support.
  • --JimWae 20:16, 2005 Feb 20 (UTC)

I've been seeing way too many arbitrary attempts to get rid of the word "radical" and replace it with words that don't fit as well. I suppose that I will have to compile my own list, like John and Rangerdude once I have more time. Other than that, most of the changes have been good. 172 21:53, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Err, Jim - a party with a platform that nobody from one of the sections can support is sectional. Furthermore, if you read Michael Holt, for instance, there are those who would argue that the anti-southern/"slave power" aspect of the party was at least as important as the actual opposition to slavery extension as a policy. john k 23:08, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• never would deny that it was sectional. I am just pointing out that word can be used as an accusative - especially if oft repeated --JimWae 23:17, 2005 Feb 20 (UTC)

Ongoing Edits

Jim - You still need to address the issues raised by others above, myself included. I will also ask that you please specify and describe the changes to the article you are making in the edit summary box. Rangerdude 02:43, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

---

• Sorry - I missed your earlier entry. Can we agree that the radicals were those advocating breaking or repeal of Fugitive Slave Laws &/or advocating rapid, non-voluntary, non-compensated aboiltion? Can we agree that the "non-expansioners" were the moderates (as article already suggested), and that conservatives were OK with Missouri Compromise? (as article already said)

Article had said

While conservatives and many moderates were content merely to call for the restoration of the Missouri Compromise or a prohibition of slavery extension, the radicals insisted that no further political compromise with slavery was possible.

-That is too broad a brush with no detail for "radicals", but does seem to accept that not all free-soilers were radicals. Article had referred to (just about) every leader as a radical - when clearly not all were & not all radicals stayed radical

I have changed 13 of 32 instances of "radical" by: dropping 3, changing 7 to "leaders", 1 to founders, & 2 to "organizers". Presently, none are changed to "free-soiler"

I have changed "radical states" to "radical platform in states..." --JimWae 08:01, 2005 Feb 21 (UTC)

A couple of things:

1. Can you stick to one format so this discussion is easier to follow? IOW, there's no need for a line break between each and every post and indents should be consistent except when blockquoting. Part of the reason you likely missed my eariler post was due to the fact that this discussion page is a formatting nightmare at the present. Sticking to one type of format will help it become less so.

2. Whatever we agree on radical, I've asked that you make your edits to this word INDIVIDUALLY so they may be reviewed on a case by case basis. A massive edit that changes 8 or 12 or 15 of them in one broad sweep with the description "most of the "radicals" changed so far are to "free-soilers"" or "changed some "free-soilers" that had been "radicals" to "leaders" - as not all leaders were radicals, and not all radicals stayed radical" doesn't cut it. If you see ONE use of the word "radical" you'd like to change, edit it and state your reasons in the edit summary box. Then move on to the next etc. Rangerdude 18:32, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Were there any radicals who actually advocated "rapid, non-voluntary, non-compensated aboiltion"? I don't think even people like Sumner viewed this as a workable political program. john k 20:07, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Plagarism This site http://www.answers.com/topic/origins-of-the-american-civil-war Seems to be almost an exact copy of the wikipedia article, or vice versa. Either way something isnt right here...

answers dot.com includes a mirror of wikipedia. They are allowed to do this under the GNU Free Documentation LicenseGeni 07:14, 11 May 2005 (UTC)