Talk:October 25

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Selected anniversaries entry for this day. Please read the selected anniversaries guidelines before editing this entry. --mav 00:38, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

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1945

In 1945, Japan surrenders Taiwan to the Allied Powers and Republic of China. Japan would not surrender to China alone had Allied power not participated in the pacifica war. China never ever demonstrated the power to win the sino-Japanese war. Merely stating Japan surrendered Taiwan to China is neglecting the fact that China accepts Japanese surrender under the authorization of General MacArthur's general order number one. Therefore, to say that Japan surrendered Taiwan to China is a sheerly a POV.Mababa 18:57, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

That the ROC was an allied power is implied. If they surrender to the ROC, then they are already surrendering to an allied power. Saying they surrendered to both the Allied Powers and the Republic of China as if they were mutually exclusive is misleading and wrong. The only allied power that got Taiwan surrendered to it was the ROC, not the others and the ROC. There's a difference between surrendering and formal transfer of sovereignty if that's what you're trying to dispute. The sentence does not imply the latter. The subject here is Japan's surrender, not China's acceptance of the surrender. We need to emphasize or not emphasize certain things depending on subject. --Jiang 19:20, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The US diplomat George H. Kerr was there as well and signed on the surrender documentation. Kerr also make specific description that the surrender of Taiwan was a joint Sino-American occupation in his memorior, Formosa Betrayed[1] (http://www.formosa.org/~taiwanpg/tw-lib.htm). Please take a look at the book if you have time. Then you will understand, from the view point of a legality, that your paragraph was not true. The description of "Japan surrendered Taiwan to China" is a POV and it is wrong and misleading. Sovereignty does not have role in our discussion here.Mababa 20:50, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

If it's not too much work, I'm interested in some quotes. I read part of the book but not the part you're referring to. The Allied command asked that the Japanese forces surrender to the Republic of China in Taiwan as it also instructed them to do in mainland China. It was a command but nevertheless the truth. How's "The Republic of China takes over administration of Taiwan following Japan's surrender to the Allies"? The current form is not grammatical and slightly illogical. --Jiang 05:33, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

First of all, I would have to admit that I can not find the text of instrument of surrender in English anywhere on the net. I get this information from Kerr's book's description " In this unpleasant atmosphere we began the 'joint Sino-American occupation of Formosa. From the very beginning the problem of ........many more to come." in his chapter 76. This was stated in Kerr himself's words and I believe he used the term joint occupation with a reason. Secondly, this was described in a letter to the news paper[2] (http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/edit/archives/2001/11/20/112336). Thirdly, looking at the picture[3] (http://www.kmt.org.tw/epaper/_Upload/921023/921023_07005.jpg) in Chong-Shang Hall, Taipei 1945, you will see that the national flag from allies are also hang in front of the ceremony. It is therefore obvious that the surrender was not to China only. I guess one of them should be the yong Kerr[4] (http://www.kmt.org.tw/epaper/_Upload/921023/921023_07004.jpg). I would be curious about why US choose to neglect their role in adminstrating Formosa as well. However, I am not a historian and I can not afford investing time doing such an individual research. Also, not fullfilling adminstrative role does not mean not having a legal responsibility. To my understanding, US tolerated Chiang since they want a serrogate to encrouch the spread of communism. Hoever, US never recognized the sovereignty claim of Taiwan from Chiang's ROC. The position is that ROC is a legal administrating government on Taiwan through occupation. Given the plethora documents left by Kerr, I would assume the description of US role on surrender instrument in the letter have basis and is not made up. These questions can be easily answered if one can pull out the english version of the instrument. I hope I have answered your questions. As for today's POV dispute, I would still insist that the surrender is not to China only, otherwise the allies's flags would not be displayed. To say that Japan surrender Formosa to China would be more misleading than say to China and the allied powers. Not be mislead by the chinese sign which states that they were observing as guests. ROC government has something else in their mind already.Mababa 10:03, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Okay, I have done my best trying to dig out the english version of the instrument of surrender signed in Taipei City Hall (Now Chungshan Hall). I also searched by General Rikichi Ando, governor-general of Taiwan and commander-in-chief of all Japanese forces on the island, and Chen Yi. Nothing useful came up. They must have hidden it. If you are satisfied by my explaination so far, I would like to remove the NPOV sign in the article. Also, please take some time to decide what do you want to do with Ma Yingjeo's page. Many thanks.Mababa 05:02, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Kerr is only one person so not everything he says is balanced or entirely true. The picture posted showed only one American flag in the room (and also note that a KMT flag was also posted, in addition to the ROC flag). I have nothing to comment on your explanation of the instrument of surrender. I didnt even know one specifically existed for Taiwan. I don't think my proposed text above contradicts the information you have given so I will add it. --Jiang 03:45, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Your proposed text works fine. Thanks for your modification.Mababa 08:39, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I would add that Kerr not only being a witness in the surrender ceremony bu also was a diplomat equipped with training of international laws. He understood his duty and carried out his duty. His record indeed reflects his own point of view. However, it sould be weighed for heavier than other people. As for the flags in the picture, you missed the England one. Supposely there should be another different one at the pillar opposit to the side where England flag was displayed. Anyway, perhaps a entry of Japan surrender in Taipei city hall can be initiated.Mababa 06:30, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)