Talk:Noam Chomsky

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See also: Talk:Chomsky and alleged anti-semitism, /Archive_1, /Archive_2, /Archive 3, /Archive 4, /Archive 5

Contents

1 Please discuss 2 Origins of supposed "Radio Hanoi" speech 3 Some more info 4 RFC 5 Sam's intro rewrite

Please discuss

Trey and TDC are making some edits that I feel are mostly destructive and have been forced to revert. If they want to put forward some arguments for such edits, they can do it here. Until I see some justifications, I'll have to just revert them. — Chameleon 12:39, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Naturally you would feel these edits are destructive as they tarnish Chomsky's halo. I might also add tat this article is the one of the worst examples of creep around. As soon as it becomes balanced and well written, it slowly devolves into love fest for the topic.

At any rate, back to the matter at hand.

Communist movements in Asia that he believed to be grassroots in nature

Stating that marxist/maoist movements in Asia were "grassroots" is factually incorrect. No major group during the cold war was either independent from Soviet/Sino control or not heavily influenced by them. To simply call these grassroots, is factually incorrect, unless you can demonstrate otherwise.

Providing a biased description of the Hoover Institute on this page is nothing more than a subtle attempt to smear it. This article is about Chomsky and to a lesser extent what others have had to say about his works and opinions. This article is not the place to preoperatively label people who have had things to say about him. Descriptions of the organization and individuals belong on their separate Wikipedia entries, not here. TDC 17:46, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)

Two thoughts:

First, the article no longer describes the Communist movements in Asia as grassroots, which I agree borders on POV. It mentions the "grassroots level" and "grassroots aspects." The American Heritage dictionary defines grassroots as "people or society at a local level rather than at the center of major political activity." I think it's fairly obvious that people at a local level were involved in Communist revolutions in Vietnam and China (just as ordinary Germans were active in the Nazi Party -- it isn't a normative definition), and it is their activities that Chomsky was praising, rightly or wrongly (wrongly, in my book, but that's beside the point).

Second, on the Heritage Foundation. Virtually all non-profit organizations, including most of those engaged in political advocacy on the right and the left, receive foundation funding which originates in corporate profits. Seeing as we're not engaged in an in-depth discussion of Heritage, I see no clear need to discuss their funding. What we do need to make clear, however, is that Heritage is a conservative think tank, so that readers understand that the critic being named is not without his own political motives.

RadicalSubversiv E 19:03, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree. groups have to fund themselves, and if Hoover takes donations from corporations rather than personal fundraising then so be it. some corporations, anyhow, support Democratic candidates pretty strongly, so this is a red herring meant to smear Hoover as a "corporate tool" (i guess only far-left publications like Z-Mag and Democracy Now! would qualify as "independent") J. Parker Stone 22:58, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

OK, so are we going to apply a label to everyone in the article, and if not, then why? TDC 19:41, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)

TDC, here are the three points I can extract from your comment: (1) a personal attack (2) a misunderstanding about what the word "grassroots" means (3) offence at any info being given about the Hoover people. You then bring up (4) the question of whether people in the article should be described. Here are my replies: (2) you can alter the wording however you like, but the gist should continue to be that Chomsky was positive about some grassroots aspects (i.e. the ordinary people on the ground) of Communist movements in the Far East whilst opposing other things such as the authoritarian nature of such movements, their marxist ideology, and their various other failings, as is to be expected of any anarchist. (3) It is important to point out one or both of the following things about the Hoover Institution lest they be mistaken for something they are not (a) their position on the right of the political spectrum (b) the fact that they are bankrolled by big corporations. (4) Plenty of people are described and labelled in the article, especially Chomsky himself. The Hoover Institution is one described in virtually no detail whatsoever. Your argument about no labelling leads to the reductio ad absurdum that most of the content of the article should be stripped. The word "preoperatively" makes no sense here; I can only assume you mean "pejoratively". If facts about an entity seem pejorative (i.e. put it in a bad light) to you, you should examine the merits of the entity rather than attacking the facts. — Chameleon 21:01, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have to question your thought process if you think that taking donations from corporations automatically affects an organization's politics. J. Parker Stone 22:59, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well I may as well start by hauling out some evidence, there is lots (especially from Gabriel Kolko's Anatomy of a War), but for now I will stick to what is currently at hand. Starting with what Chomsky actually says because it JUST MIGHT be an important desiderata for authoring an article about him that people should have read a good-sized sample of his work, without preconceptions, having SINCERELY TRIED TO UNDERSTAND HIS ARGUMENTS.....

from the interview in the Chomsky Reader published in 1987. p.26-27

"Take the Vietnam War. It was clear by the end of the sixties that the United States had achieved its primary objectives. It had effectively destroyed the National Liberation Front of South Vietnam and the Pathet Lao in Laos, ensuring, as I wrote at the time, that only the harshest and most authoritarian elements in Indochina would survive, if any would. This was a major victory for U.S. aggression. Principled opponents of the U.S. war were therefore in the position of, in effect, helping to defend the only surviving resistance in Vietnam, which happened to be highly authoritarian state-socialist groups. Now I don't think that was a reason for not opposing the American War in Vietnam, but I think it's a reason why many anarchists could not throw themselves into the struggle with the energy and sympathy that they might have. Some did, but others were reluctant because they were highly critical of the regime that was going to emerge, as I was. Within peace movement groups, I tried to dissociate opposition to the American war from suppport for state socialism in Vietnam, as many will recall. But it was no easy task to undertake serious opposition to imperial aggression, with the very real personal costs that this entailed, on such a basis. This was easy enough for bystanders who were satisfied to cluck their tongues in dismay, but it was quite a different matter for those- primarily young- people who were really trying to do something to end these atrocities. In fact, the American movement tended to become quite pro-North Vietnamese, segments of it, at least. They felt that they were not simply opposing the American war, but they were defending the North Vietnamese vision of a future society.

jp: I think that there was the wish on the part of some to see a genuinely humane alternative society.

NC: Yes. And many felt that this was what the North Vietnamese, the state socialist bureaucrats would create, which was highly unlikely, particularly as the war progressed with mounting terror and destruction. It's worth trying to come to grips with these questions, but that is a very difficult thing to do, for one reason because we're not doing it in outer space. We're doing it in the United States, in the midst of a society which is devoting every effort to enhancing the most harsh and authoritarian and oppressive elements in that regime, or to destroy the country outright. We are doing it in a society which will use our very critique for destructive purposes. Those are facts which no honest person will suppress or fail to attend to. And this remains true today, just as it was during the war. The United States has never terminated its effort to win the war in Vietnam. It's still trying to win it, and in many ways it is winning. One of the ways it is winning is by imposing conditions which will bring out and emphasize the repressive elements which were present in the Vietnamese Communist movement..." (and so on)

Next something to consider from radical historian Carolyn Eisenberg, who you should be familiar with from the criticism section : "To take the case of Vietnam. It took the antiwar movement years to drive home the point that the NLF was an indigenous movement, and that rather than being a Soviet creation, the NLF was, if anything. struggling to get Russian aid." (Radical History Review, 1989). (Note: I do realize that indigenous is not synonymous with "grassroots", nevetheless take it for what it says, the NLF was not anyone's puppet."

Finally from Gabriel Kolko, who Chomsky has cited for amny years on Vietnam, an excerpt from his classic history, "Anatomy of a War.":

"The (NLF) Party always understood the crucial role of local initiative and mass participation, particularly as the increasing demands of security reduced the higher level’s quick access to grass-roots organizations, and adaptively strove to overcome any elitist, passive tendencies which existed, all the while defining a broad, common framework for action. The Peasants liberation Association was the largest of the NLF mass groups, and in many older revolutionary areas it was the real local administration. By mid-1965, according to the CIA, the various liberation associations had roughly half a million members. Other U.S. estimates for a later period showed that anywhere from one-half to three-quarters of the rural society in the NLF-controlled regions participated in the many facets of the local administration’s work – compared with one-fifth in "contested" areas and with less in solid RVN regions. The local Party branches, too, were instructed to assume as many key responsibilities and possible and to operate autonomously of the higher Party on local administrative questions. This made local Revolutionary government far move responsible to the masses than was the typically bureaucratic RVN system, as well as capable of surviving on local resources for military and for other functions." Anatomy of a War- Chapter 10 (http://www.chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/Vietnam/kolkoch10.html) [user: BernardL]

once again, if the Viet Cong were "indigenous," WHY did they disappear after the NVA took over South Vietnam? J. Parker Stone 22:18, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

To me it's readily evident in the excerpts what Chomsky would likely give as an answer. Just as an exercise, what do you think Chomsky would say in reply? [user: BernardL]

i don't care what excuses Chomsky would make. the Viet Cong were a tool of the PAVN. J. Parker Stone 22:43, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Why would Chomsky make an excuse? You do understand that he is an anarchist, right? — Chameleon 23:04, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

yes. an anarchist with an inordinate amount of sympathy for anti-American Communist dictatorships. J. Parker Stone 23:14, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I hope you understand that that is rather unlikely (like "an atheist with an inordinate amount of sympathy for religious fundamentalists") and that the burden of proof is therefore on you. If you can find a quote by Chomsky supporting any régime, I'll be happy to add it to the article. — Chameleon 23:36, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

you have to be seriously deluded if you really believe everything you just said. J. Parker Stone 00:44, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

OK, I'll take this as an exercise in patience. When I said I hope you do understood that he was an anarchist, I didn't just mean that I hoped you knew that the word was applied to him, but that I hoped you understood that he was actually an anarchist, i.e. someone opposed to all authority, in particular government authority. With me so far? Tell at what point you think my argument breaks down. OK, so if he is an anarchist, it is a priori unlikely that he would support a dictatorship, right? Before you answer that, tell me whether you agree that "an atheist with an inordinate amount of sympathy for religious fundamentalists" would also be an inherently unlikely assertion and one that would require a lot of evidence to back it up. — Chameleon 01:43, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

the problem is that for Chomsky, pure anti-Americanism trumps whatever "anarchist" ideology he may possess J. Parker Stone 07:53, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

OK, so you bring in a second ideology to explain it. Great. But you do at least see that "an atheist with an inordinate amount of sympathy for religious fundamentalists" or "an [American] anarchist with an inordinate amount of sympathy for anti-American Communist dictatorships" are assertions that seem rather unlikely and require a lot of proof? — Chameleon 08:01, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Your argument that Chomsky support grassroots aspects of SE Asian Marxist/Maoist movements while simultaneously criticizing the authoritarian nature of such movements might be convincing had he done the latter. During the timeframe of the conflict, late 1960’s and early 1970’s Chomsky was silent on any authoritarian or totalitarian bent in these organizations or regimes. And once again, there are no specific “grassroots aspects” of theses movements spelled out in the article.

There are hundreds of adjectives that could be used to describe the Hoover Institute, describing them as “corporate funded” is not only POV, but is also inaccurate. The list of donors to the Hoover Institute clearly shows them to be foundations, not corporations. I realize that you may not see a difference between the two, but anyone familiar with the causes and organizations supported by the Ford Foundation can see that they are most likely not in line with the interests of the Ford Motors. At its core the Hoover Institute is a libertarian think tank, and if it to be described with any adjectives at all in the article this would be the most appropriate. TDC 15:14, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

I didn't say he had criticised specific movements or governments. There is no need for him to do so. His anti-authoritarian ideology has already been clearly stated on numerous occasions. He has also explained on numerous occasions why he focuses the vast majority of his criticism on his own government. Even if he had never specifically criticised any government in the world except for the American one, that would not prove that he supported those governments. The burden of proof is upon those who claim he has specifically supported them.

That said, of course, he has criticised such movements in passing, which adds up to a large amount of condemnation over the years. For example, in the following:

If you look at all of the stuff I wrote about the Vietnam war, there's not one word supporting the Vietcong, [...] The left was all backing Ho Chi Minh: I was saying that North Vietnam is a brutal Stalinist dictatorship. But it wasn't my job to tell the Vietnamese how to run the show. My view is that solidarity means taking my country, where I have some responsibility and some influence, and compelling it to get its dirty hands out of other people's affairs. You give solidarity to the people of a country, not the authorities. You don't give solidarity to governments, you don't give it to revolutionary leaders, you don't give it to political parties. [1] (http://www.chomsky.info/onchomsky/19940603.htm)

To this we can add the countless occasions on which he has used adjectives such as "brutal", "atrocious", "gruesome", "Stalinist", "authoritarian" etc. when describing (so-called) Communist organisations, leaders and actions in a variety of countries, including Cambodia and Vietnam. — Chameleon 16:24, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"So-called?" No, they were Communist (and communist,) plain and simple. J. Parker Stone 20:32, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Whilst I realise that we are talking about parties that were wont to use the word "Communist" in their names, and that it is customary in the West to call such movements and governments Communist, in my own writings I am careful to note that they are only "so-called" because these people never brought about any sort of communist society as theorised by Kropotkin or even by Marx; and furthermore I believe that such authoritarian movements are the worst enemy of communism (in the only meaningful sense of the term). — Chameleon 21:14, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Once again, all well after the fact. All the adjectives you listed, Chomsky never applied to the Khmer Rouge (for example) until well after no one would dare deny what had taken place.

The quote you provided was interesting and would be relevant had he wrote it in 1964, or 1974, but for him to provide his condemnation of the Vietcong in 1984 (how ironic) does not live up to the burden of proof in this situation. His passing criticism the North Vietnam as a “brutal Stalinist dictatorship” was new in 1984, as he never made any such mention of it when it would have been relevant. Nothing I have found during the relevant time period, including the New Mandarins, even touches on the authoritarian nature of the North Vietnamese or any other Maoist/Marxist movement. Seems to me, that during the relevant period in the 1960’s and 1970’s the only thing had had to say about North Vietnam was cutesies and cuddlies about its glorious revolution.

And while I have to admit that you do have a point when you say that because he did not condemn them means he did not support them, actions often speak louder than words. Going to Hanoi as a guest of the North Vietnamese and making a sugar coated propaganda broadcast over the radio could be viewed in some circles as support for the North Vietnamese regime, because thats exactly what it was.

Or from his April 13, 1970 speech in Hanoi:

• While in Hanoi I have had the opportunity to read the recent and very important book by Le Duan on the problems and tasks of the Vietnamese revolution. In it, he says that the fundamental interests of the proletariat of the people of all the world consists in at the same time in safeguarding world peace and moving the revolution forward in all countries. This is our common goal. We only hope that we can build upon your historic achievements.

I also find it interesting how Chomksy tried to distance himself from this issue by claiming that he could not recall making a speech.

This is what Chomsky had to say about that speech, in an e-mail to me:

Something appeared in FBIS in 1970, purporting to be a transcript of 
a speech of mine over radio Hanoi.  I never gave any speech over 
radio Hanoi, or anywhere.  It's possible that informal remarks were  
picked up of mine, or someone, at a meeting of some sort after Doug 
Dowd, Dick Fernandez and I spent a day travelling through parts of 
the bombed out countryside and some villages in the neighborhood of 
Hanoi, a pretty shattering experience.  Can't say any more than that. 
My own report was in the NY Review a few weeks later, reprinted in At 
War with Asia. This particular item has been circulating for about 30 
years, at least.

So, one: he doesn't say he "could not recall making a speech"; he specifically says he did not make one. So, we have two pieces on his reaction to his trip to Vietnam: one, which bears his byline, is obviously his authorship, and is open for everybody to read. The other first appeared in a US government propaganda outlet during wartime in a war Chomsky was specifically opposing, which Chomsky disclaims. I don't think that that highly questionable single datapoint can truly establish a pattern of him "supporting" the North Vietnamese government. Especially when you compare to, say, many other activists at the time who really did support the North Vietnamese government DanKeshet 19:54, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

One of my opponents, a Chomsky defender & self-described "anarchist" of the anti-capitalist variety, Dan Clore, immediately denied that Chomsky had ever made any such speech, & called David Horowitz a "notorious liar". He also accused Horowitz of using a fabricated quote from the socialist historian Ronald Radosh about Chomsky's alleged policy of keeping quiet about the negative aspects of North Vietnam that Chomsky had seen on his tour of the country. Unfortunately, Collier & Horowitz didn't indicate what their source for Chomsky's Hanoi speech was, so I kept looking. I found the primary source in the book "POLITICAL PILGRIMS: Western Intellectuals in Search of the Good Society", by Paul Hollander. Then, with the irreplaceable help of Stephen Denney, an archivist with the UC Berkeley Indochina Center, I was able to obtain a transcript of the entire speech, which I have provided above. [2] (http://www.no-treason.com/Starr/3.html) J. Parker Stone 20:55, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

So? IIRC the original trascript comes from the FBIS; we've had this discussion some time back. The point is Chomsky denies it's genuine, so we should be fairly skeptical of it. Chomsky is pretty notorious both in politics and linguistics for sticking by more or less everything he's ever written, however unpopular. I find it unlikely he'd lie about this one speech, which isn't even very well known. Cadr 20:58, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

No, I was right in the first place. Read your own post again (and I will assume that the email from Chomsky is legitimate). Although he claims to have not given a speech over radio Hanoi (in a sound studio with a microphone in front of his mouth) he does not discount the possibility that that “informal remarks were picked up” and apparently rebroadcast. I also do not understand the “propaganda outlet” remark. Are you claiming that the Foreign Broadcast Information Service made the whole thing up? And if you are, you better have some more evidence other than a hunch. The transcript of the speech can also be obtained from the Berkeley Indochina Center’s archives.

And as for your claim that one “single datapoint can truly establish a pattern of him "supporting" the North Vietnamese government” is not for either you or I to say. Fact remains is that this “one single datapoint” has been brought up on numerous occasions by his detractors, making it a notable criticism. TDC 21:01, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

I think you're confusing another poster's comments with mine. The above is the first post I've made on this page since it was last archived (I think). Anyway, if "informal comments" were picked up, it's hard to be sure that this is actually a transcript and is at all accurate (presumably informal comments would not have been recorded?). Anyway I'm not necessarily saying this shouldn't be included in the article, but it should be clear that Chomsky (uncharacteristically) dissociates himself from it. Cadr 21:05, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Read it again people, according to DanKeshet’s email, he does not deny that he said these things, simply that he did not make a broadcast over radio Hanoi. TDC 21:03, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

Well, that's very interesting. I had thought that the style of writing was very different, but I hadn't realised it was actually a fabrication. One question: does anyone know what language this broadcast was supposed to have been in?

But let's put this aside for a moment, because it doesn't actually change anything. Even in the fabricated transcript, the closest thing to supporting leaders that Chomsky did was to allude positively to a book by a politician. There is nothing even as close as that in stuff actually written by Chomsky. As I pointed out above, the burden of proof is on those who make the improbable claim that Chomsky, a life-long anarchist, would support a particular authoritarian organisation or leader. Nothing approaching proof has ever been given. The article must therefore reflect the well-established fact that Chomsky is an anarchist, whilst duly reporting the insinuations made against him.

Let me point out again, in case it has been forgotten, that we do not need to find a quote from Chomsky written in a certain year, saying "I'm currently against movement/politican X" in order to understand that he was indeed against movement/politician X. It is enough to note that he has been against things like X his entire life, and has on several occasions specifically denounced X and even pointed out that he did indeed oppose X in the given period (e.g. "The left was all backing Ho Chi Minh: I was saying that North Vietnam is a brutal Stalinist dictatorship."). — Chameleon 21:14, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

people can deduce tacit support from your writings despite attempts to deny it. at most, Chomsky makes a parenthetical remark about the wrongdoings of America's enemies, then goes into a bashfest against American policy. J. Parker Stone 21:16, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[3] (http://www.onelang.com/encyclopedia/images/thumb/f/f4/250px-NoamChomsky_CarlosMarti_FidelCastro_28oct2003.jpg)

the improbable claim that Chomsky, a life-long anarchist, would support a particular authoritarian organisation or leader. Nothing approaching proof has ever been given.

I know, I know, the picture means nothing. He was just there to ...... um ....... argue .... his ..... displeasure with the US embargo. TDC 21:32, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

Seriously what do I have to do, find a picture of Chomsky tossing Fidel Castro's salad? I mean come one people, he looks like he is going to felate the left's favorite thug for Christ's sake!TDC 02:18, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

Wow, a picture of Chomsky talking to Fidel Castro. Perhaps the closest thing the right has to a Rummy-Saddam handshake video. Anyway, since we don't know what he's saying, I don't see how it puts him in either a positive or a negative light, unless you think that talking to bad men makes you a bad man. Cadr 22:25, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

According to published reports, Chomsky was in Havana at the 25th Assembly of the Latin American Social Science Council and spent most of his time attacking the United States [4] (http://www.granma.cu/ingles/2003/octubre03/mier29/43chomsk.html), no doubt impressing his host Fidel Castro.

...Chomsky is not a policymaker worried about an Islamic takeover in Iraq. i think there's a little bit of a difference J. Parker Stone 22:27, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

seriously, i get the impression that nothing short of a makeout session with Castro or Ortega would convince you guys of where Chomsky's sympathies lie J. Parker Stone 22:29, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Makes no difference whether or not he's a policy maker...Anyway, this quote sums up his position on Castro's government quite well (and probably his opinion on the Asian Communist movements too).

yes it does. policymakers have to deal with unpalatable regimes based on strategic interests. ordinary citizens do not.

As a matter of fact neither politicans nor ordinary citizens have to deal with unpalatable regimes if they don't want to. Both may rationally choose to do so under certain circumstances. Anyway, Chomsky wasn't really dealing with the Cuban regime, he was just talking to Castro because they happened to be at the same conference. I guess most people would probably talk to Castro if they got the opportunity, wouldn't you? Cadr 22:49, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

yeah, just so happened to bump into him. and policymakers can't really engage in foreign affairs without at times dealing with shady regimes. J. Parker Stone 23:00, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well, yes he did just so happen to bump into him. Are you suggesting he went to that conference specifically to talk to Castro? I agree that policymakers often need to deal with shady regimes, but so do political activists if they want to change anything. And there's no evidence that Chomsky was "dealing" with Castro anyway. Cadr 23:09, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

As far as I am concerned, I do not pass judgement on what Cubans decide to do. I am in favour of Cuba’s successful defiance of the United States. I am in favour of them taking matters into their own hands. Exactly how they carry it out… I have my own opinions. A lot of things I think are fine, a lot not, but it’s a matter for the Cubans to decide. My concern is that the hemispheric superpower not resort to violence, pressure, force, threat, and embargo in order to prevent Cubans from deciding how to determine their own fate.

well, Chomsky is vague here, but he clearly seems to be favoring the Castro govt. over the U.S. (Cubans "decide for themselves" despite being repressed by the state apparatus) J. Parker Stone 22:38, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Not really. He's favouring Cuban control of Cuba, and noting that the Castro government has successfully resisted capitulating to US interests, whatever its other qualities.

right, supporting the Castro govt. J. Parker Stone 23:00, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Not really, that's a distortian resulting from "with us or against us" disorder. He says quite explicitly that he's "in favour of Cuba's successful defiance". He doesn't praise the Castro govt, at least not in that quote. Cadr 23:06, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Origins of supposed "Radio Hanoi" speech

If you follow the webpage Trey links to above, it clearly states that the speech was first published in a journal of the FBIS, that is, the Foreign Broadcast Information Service [FBIS] of the CIA. The publication was therefore made at a time of war by the intelligence/counterintelligence arm of one of the belligerents. Just weeks later, Chomsky set out a piece under his own byline describing his time there, which was quite markedly different from the piece published by the CIA. These are just some of the many reasons to doubt the accuracy of the piece. DanKeshet 21:26, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

i have a hard time believing that the FBIS would just up and fabricate such a long speech about a (non-mainstream) antiwar activist. J. Parker Stone 21:30, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

but, i mean, there's a simple way to solve this -- say that Chomsky himself denies ever having made such a speech. J. Parker Stone 21:31, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

And it is compeltely irrelevant Dan. You are trying to piece together an explanation for a question no one is asking. Provide evidence, or even a sourced allegation that the transcript is a phony, and no an unverifiable email will not do, or you are just spinning your wheels with original research.

Remember, Chosmky does not discount the possibility that "informal remarks were picked up" and possibly rebroadcasted over the Radio. TDC 21:37, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

Hi TDC, the onus isn't on me to "prove" that it was falsified; if we were to use that as a source, the onus is on all of us to evaluate it as a source. We don't just believe things because they haven't been disproven; we try to find credible sources. According to Trey's link, the piece was written up by the FBIS after being broadcast on Radio Hanoi, supposedly a day after it had been recorded. We don't yet know whether the FBIS claims that this is a transcript of his English-language remarks or a re-translation of the Vietnamese (which, hence, would have gone through the intelligence arms of both belligerents before it reached us!). The point is not simply whether or not Chomsky denies making the speech; that is just one strike among many marking this source as non-credible. FWIW, this is a clear point calling for us to do more library research and find the original FBIS journal, to see what it says about the speech. DanKeshet 21:55, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

• Just weeks later, Chomsky set out a piece under his own byline describing his time there, which was quite markedly different from the piece published by the CIA'

This also brings up another interesting point. What Chomsky says on and off the record is quite telling. I will point you to the letter he wrote to Alexander Cockburn regarding Vaclav Havel, among other things [5] (http://www.chomsky.info/letters/19900301.htm)

I'd like to point out that we are writing an encyclopedia article about Noam Chomsky, not an authoritative biography. Seeing as we are not excerpting quotations from every speech he has ever given, I don't think it unreasonable to restrict ourselves to speeches and writings which are undoubtedly authentic, which I think will provide plenty of fodder for critics and admirers alike. The quote is being used to summarize Chomsky's views on Communism in Vietnam -- if it's authenticity is dubious, it can hardly serve to do that, disclaimer or no. RadicalSubversiv E 22:12, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I would also like to point out that based on what documentable evidence exactly can you say to me that this source is dubious? Please be very specific and clear here. Secondly it is not being used to by me to summarize Chomsky's views on Communism in Vietnam, it is being used by his critics, (you know, real one that have documentable opinions and not wild ass conspiracy theories about the CIA faking a radio broadcast to smear ol' Noamy). This is also the way it was written the last time I made significant contributions to the article and it was nto watered down into another lovefest. TDC 02:23, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

Chameleon, please stop RVing the changes. Nothing has been "shown" to be a fabrication. J. Parker Stone 22:24, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Some more info

Check out the Virtual Vietnam Archive (http://www.vietnam.ttu.edu/) at Texas Tech. I found in the Douglas Pike collection of documents something which I've copied the OCR'ed text to here: User:DanKeshet/Chomsky in Vietnam. I haven't cleaned it up much, but the original .PDF is available at that site. Citation: Peace Offensive, 14 April 1970, Folder 06, Box 08, Douglas Pike Collection: Unit 03 - Antiwar Activities, The Vietnam Archive, Texas Tech University. DanKeshet 22:49, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

See also http://forum.zmag.org/read?58235,5 - BTW, obviously the CIA and lots of others were monitoring Radio Hanoi at the time, so if this "speech" is real, a recording of it exists somewhere... let's try a reward for delivering a recording that corresponds to the version of the no-treason website? If the wackos who believe that it's real weren't so lazy, they would just go and check the source given on the website ("published in the _Asia-Pacific Daily Report_ of the U.S. government's Foreign Broadcast Information Service, April 16, 1970, pages K2-K3") - I bet they won't find anything like this published there, i.e. the person who put it on the website is another lazy wacko who just used his imagination and made it up without looking anywhere else...

That link is broken. — Chameleon 03:07, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

No it's not. You should log in as a guest first.

It's not easy to access. I've copied the text here: Talk:Noam Chomsky/Zmag forum reply re Radio Hanoi. — Chameleon 15:19, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

the only "wackos" i can think of are the people suggesting that the CIA would go through the trouble of fabricating something like this -- if they were gonna do it, why not for someone like Fonda? J. Parker Stone 03:46, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Read again. I said that lazy wackos like you, and the guy who put the "speech" on the website, fabricated it - i.e., that neither the CIA nor anyone else related to the U.S. gov published it, but wackos like you are too lazy to actually go and check the source given on that website. I didn't take a stand at all on whether or not the CIA would fabricate such a thing - that's a straw man that you keep coming back to. Also read again the part about a recording that should be available if it were real.

I find it amazing that an Israeli would come here to defend Noam Chomsky of all people. But anyhoo, the source at the UC Berkley Indochina Center was given, and I am sure he can clear all this up if it is neccesary. TDC 04:01, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

I don't know who fabricated this, and it doesn't matter. What matters is that it is an unverified source, clearly stated by the man himself to not be his words. Stop being so paranoid. The fact that we don't want to quote this dodgy source doesn't mean there is some great cover-up. I was happy leaving it in the article for months until we realised it was not authentic. It is also crazy to think that the fake speech somehow supports your thesis. You should look at the article that Chomsky actually did write about his trip. In it he is actually more positive about the way things were organised over there than in the fake speech.

I also think it's possible that little deliberate falsification has occurred. It is conceivable that comments made by Chomsky in Vietnam were summarised and turned into a speech in Vietnamese which was then read on Radio Hanoi, then transcribed and translated back into English, and then got back to us after passing through filters that removed the full details of its production. All rather like a game of Chinese whispers. In any case, since Chomsky has made practically identical comments in this article that we know he wrote (http://www.nybooks.com/articles/10869), I don't see (a) any reason to use the speech that we are not sure is his, or (b) any reason at all to doubt him when he says that he did not give the speech (given that it would be utterly pointless to deny [6] (http://www.no-treason.com/Starr/3.html) whilst referring us to [7] (http://www.nybooks.com/articles/10869)). — Chameleon 04:08, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

of course he has reason to deny it -- to prevent conservatives from attacking him as a VC apologist and pseudo-Marxist hack. J. Parker Stone 04:10, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

But that doesn't make sense. How does the speech prove either of those things? What does he allegedly say in it that he doesn't say in greater detail in the article he actually wrote (http://www.nybooks.com/articles/10869)? — Chameleon 11:23, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

RFC

A speech purported to be given by Noam Chomsky in 1970 while he was in Hanoi is now in question and some editors are attempting to remove it.

The following reasons are given for its being deemed a fake and for removed (these appear to be the major ones).

• 1. An email allegedly from Chomsky states that he never gave a radio broadcast, although it does leave open the possibility that he was recorded.
• 2. The FBIS, as an agent of the United States Government, has fabricated the speech.
• 3. The source for the speech, an article from a highly partisan source, concocted the speech.

My responses to the above.

• 1. An unsolicited and unverifiable email (although I have no reason to believe it is not from Chomsky) is hardly acceptable as a source in this case considering that he is subject of the debate and has considerable reason to deny these allegations.
• 2. No evidence that the FBIS fabricated the speech.
• 3. No evidence that the article fabricated the speech.

The logic and reasons given for the removal of the speech are entirely unverifiable and conjecture. These reasons hardly warrant the removal of relevant material whose inclusion was decided upon long ago.TDC 11:31, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

TDC, we don't include absolutely everything ever said by or about Chomsky. We select the best from the material available. You want to include a source that we have reason to believe may not be authentic. We are opposing that because almost identical comments by Chomsky can be found in documents whose authenticity is beyond doubt. You are just making trouble, which is your stated aim on Wikipedia. — Chameleon 11:51, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

(1) - doesn't apply, he gave much more details in a public znet forum email, linked above.
(2)+(3) - well, there's also no evidence that there aren't pink elephants with 9 heads dancing on the moon, but without credible evidence we shouldn't claim that there are... If you're too lazy to verify the source, that's your problem... BTW, even though I'm willing to bet that you'd get stuck at (3), suppose for the sake of the argument that I'm wrong, what do you expect to find when you reach (2)? A claim that those words were spoken by Chomsky and broadcasted on Radio Hanoi in English, or a claim that some north Vietnamese broadcaster said those words in the Vietnamese language on Radio Hanoi? If it's the 2nd option, I would assume you do not wish to maintain a double standard by claiming that in this instance the north Vietnamese were telling the truth, while elsewhere they're liars...

Please log in and sign your comments. — Chameleon 14:07, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I do not say: "the CIA fabricated the speech". I said: this source isn't trustworthy. There's a big difference between the two. I gave reasons why the source isn't trustworthy: there's a lack of information about its origins: we don't have a copy of the FBIS broadcast, we don't yet know what language the Radio Hanoi broadcast was in, we don't know whether the Radio Hanoi broadcast was a summary of Chomsky's words, or whether it was Chomsky in his own words, speaking in English. For all we know, this is a word-for-word accurate translation of a Radio Hanoi speechwriter's propaganda.

I have gone out and tried to track the source down and verify it. I have found another source which purports to be a transcript of a Radio Hanoi broadcast about Chomsky's visit the same day, in English. That source does not quote Chomsky directly, but summarizes what the group of 3 Americans said. I would think you would be happy that we seem to be progressing toward the truth. Instead, you seem to be making the bizarre argument that we should not spend more time verifying the authenticity of sources.

Finally, there's two other points involved here: 1) there's a substitute source (Chomsky's article in the NY Review of Books) with a more direct pedigree (not unverified Chomsky->Radio Hanoi->FBIS->random website, but Chomksky->NY Review, which are both verified). The substitute source is a more typical Chomsky style, with pretty similar content. For what it's worth, I only got involved because I was worried about us using "dodgy" sources, to pick up a Britishism. There are many articles in which Chomsky says that there were significant grassroots aspects to the Vietnamese revolution, with the same caveats he gives after his visit: some of it was highly centralized and not grassroots. I think emphasizing one or the other (his distrust of the Vietnamese state's centralizing tendencies or his remarks about the grassroots nature of many parts of the Revolution) would be inappropriate. DanKeshet 14:46, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

I agree completely with Dan, and would like to thank him for the research he's putting into this. RadicalSubversiv E 20:04, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

we did NOT emphasize one -- I personally kept both in, to show that he viewed the U.S. as far worse than the PAVN and keep his criticism of statism. J. Parker Stone 20:20, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

That's nice, but there is really no need to quote the speech at all. — Chameleon 21:11, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I notice that since you have lost the argument, you have resorted to just reverting the page. You won't be allowed to do that. — Chameleon 19:47, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

i only lost the argument if you think that some nut conspiracy theory about how the speech was completely fabricated is true (though i wouldn't put it past Chomsky supporters) J. Parker Stone 19:50, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Trey, the only editors who have claimed to know anything about the speech's authenticity with certainty are you and TDC. Everyone else is of the opinion that since Chomsky denies its authenticity, it should not be used until it can be verified more authoritatively than by a right-wing website. RadicalSubversiv E 20:00, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Mr Stone, how is that possibly a conspiracy theory? It is perfectly possible that it was fabricated by Tim Starr (http://www.no-treason.com/Starr/3.html). One liar does not a conspiracy make. Alternatively, the Viet Cong could have cobbled the text together from various things Chomsky said, and the proper attribution and history of the text could have been lost at some point, through malice or carelessness. The fact is that we don't know how the text came to exist; all we know is that Chomsky made no such speech on Radio Hanoi. Until further research is carried out, all we have is a text from an unconfirmed source on a non-notable website. I'm afraid that doesn't meet our criteria for reference material, especially when have a longer article actually written by Chomsky (http://www.nybooks.com/articles/10869) which says much the same. The only ones pushing a paranoid theory are you and TDC, who are somehow convinced that Chomsky is lying about this text, despite the utter lack of any reason to do so. You have been unable to respond to any of these points, so you should stop reverting. — Chameleon 20:08, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

the "right-wing website" links to the Berkeley Indochina Center, smart guy. J. Parker Stone 20:10, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, he links to the BIC's site, but the text in question is not on that site. So that's no use. We need to do more research before we know the full story about where the hell that text came from. Don't you understand that? — Chameleon 21:19, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Someone needs to get the original FBIS documents with the transcript and see what they say about the source. I looked into this a few months ago, but it's very hard to get hold of them in the UK, and there seem to be lots of slightly-differently-named publications listed in libraries, none of which match precisely with the cited publication. I expect good libraries in the US have what we're looking for, right? Maybe Trey or TDC could find the original publications and help lay this to rest. Cadr 21:59, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sam's intro rewrite

First off, I think it's rather reckless to make a major change to an article that's being actively fought over, removing several important pieces of information, and only offer a one-word edit summary as explanation. That's just a recipe for an edit war.

Secondly, although I'd like to hear his reasoning, I think Sam's changes are inappropriate:

1. Whether Chomsky is best-known for his academic work or his political activism is, in fact, debatable. Certainly he has had a far greater impact on modern linguistics than he has on the operations of the United States government.
2. His political self-identification is obviously relevant to any attempt to briefly summarize his political activity.
3. The fact that he is by some measures the world's most cited living author certainly merits inclusion, and the intro seems like a fine place for it to me.

   Sam's intro actually retained this fact. Cadr 11:56, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

   My apologies to Sam, I didn't look closely enough at the diff. I stand by my other points, however. RadicalSubversiv E 12:13, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

RadicalSubversiv E 06:47, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)