Talk:Nikolai Gogol

Peter Gelman wrote the "interpretation" section of the Gogol text. gelman_commerce@yahoo.com.

There's an essay by Yuri Druzhnikov (http://www.druzhnikov.com/text/rass/duel/6.html) that makes a convincing argument that the alleged friendship and exchange of literary ideas between Pushkin and Gogol is actually a myth that was largely created by Gogol himself. I haven't done any actual research on this, so I can't really make any edits, but perhaps someone knows more about this? -- Maralenenok

Gogol's homosexuality

I removed comments about Gogol's alleged homosexuality until any credible evidence of this statement is presented. (Fisenko 22:14, 13 May 2005 (UTC))

Try The Sexual Labyrinth of Nikolai Gogol by Simon Karlinsky (reviewed here (http://www.nybooks.com/articles/article-preview?article_id=8554). - Outerlimits 22:18, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

Russian writer? Ukrainian-Russian? Ukr-Born Russian writer?

To say that Gogol wrote in the Russian language and to say that he was a Russian (linked to Russia) are two different things. Ukranian wasn't used as a literary language at the time, and the Ukraine was not an independent nation, so naturally he wrote in Russian.--Prosfilaes 21:18, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The article did not say he was Russian. It said he was a Russian writer. These are two different things. He was not Russian but Ukrainian. But he was a Russian writer because he contributed to Russian literature. There were contemporary authors who wrote in Ukrainian at the time. Gogol wasn't. So, the article correctly had it:

Gogol was a Ukrainian-born (i.e. of Ukrainian ethnicity) Russian writer (i.e. writer of Russian literature).

It would be more correct to call Shevchenko (who wrote some poetry and prose also in Russian) a Ukrainian-Russian author (this would be absurd of course, I am just making a point), than to call Gogol a Ukrainian-Russian writer. I am going to revert that to an original version. If you insist on the article saying that he was Ukrainian more explicitly, you can change it to "Russian writer of Ukrainian ethnicity" but this sounds clumsy, I think, and "Ukrainian-born" pretty much says the same thing.

Ukrainian literature has many talented authors. It is a big disservice to this literature to assign Gogol to it because it may create a wrong impression that Ukrainian literature itself has no one to offer and has to co-opt Russian writers to make a claim for significance. It doesn't and it is doing well with its own great talents. But the main issue, of course, is that the claim is incorrect regardless of its political meaning. -Irpen 23:03, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)

It said he was a [[Russia|Russian]] writer. That's different from saying that he was a [[Russian language|Russian]] writer. By saying the first, you are saying he's Russian, and it's closer to what the English sentence "he was a Russian writer" means. For example, Mark Twain is called an American writer, and never an English writer that I've seen. --Prosfilaes 06:09, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Now I agree, this is a valid point. Myself, like the majority of readers, did not pay attention to what was behind such an obvious link as "Russian". Now I changed that to "[[Russian literature|Russian writer]]". Or perhaps we could change that to "[[List of Russian authors|Russian writer]]". The latter article starts with: "This is the list of authors that wrote in [[Russian language]]. Not all of them are of Russian descent...", which I think is very politically correct way to say it.

With incorrect link, this was somewhat misleading, I agree with you, but still less misleading than the version calling him "Ukrainian-Russian writer" no matter what the hidden links where. Disregarding links, it is more correct to say "Ukrainian born Russian writer" than "Ukrainian-Russian writer" about Gogol. At least this is my feeling and forgive me if I am wrong, I am not a native English speaker. Marko Vovchok, for example, is the one who could correctly be called Ukrainian-Russian writer. Any takers to write an article on this very talented woman highly acclaimed by both Ukrainian and Russian critics? I might do it myself some time. Regards, -Irpen 20:13, Jun 7, 2005 (UTC)

Gogol's Ethnicity

You mention Gogol is Polish rather than Ukrainian in ethnicity. What are your evidence for this? To have some Polish ancestors is not exactly the same as being Polish. Maybe Gogol's grandfather or great-grandfather is Polish, but that might only make him 1/4 or 1/8 Polish, rather than fully Polish. Mandel 22:38, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)

I am not saying he is Polish. There is no evidence he had Polish ancestors. He is most certainly Ukrainian. I was saying that his grand-father called himself Polish in spite of being Ukrainian (or rather Ruthenian). This was due to Polonization of Ukrainian/Ruthenian higher class. Gogol's family as a whole chose to avoid the polonization as it is clear from the article. They went to study in Orthodox Institution (KMA) and moved to Eastern Ukraine not ruled by Poland at that time.

I used the Brockhaus and Efron as source of the info. The article is here (http://www.cultinfo.ru/fulltext/1/001/007/029/29430.htm). If you think that the current text suggest that Gogol was Polish, it certainly needs improvement. I will think about it and feel free to edit this. -Irpen 23:31, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, the article certainly is misleading. As it now stands, it certainly suggests that Gogol was Polish rather than Ukrainian. Mandel 00:22, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)

I changed it. Feel free to modify, if this still seems misleading. -Irpen 00:41, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)

I still don't get the reason why Gogol's grandfather would sign himself as "of the Polish nation". It certainly suggests that Gogol has some Polish blood in him, unless what he meant was something else exactly. What did Gogol's grandfather really mean - of Polish nationality or of Polish ethnicity?

We can only guess what he really meant. However, we have some clues if we take into account the context. In Ukraine, ruled for centuries from Poland and later from Muscovy that became Russia, the Ukrainian upper class (up to a certain moment it is more correct to call them Ruthenians) was under pressure of Polonization or Russification. Generally, the upper class (senior to minor nobility) tended to get polonized (or russified) with time (I mean mostly culturally, not necesseraly by blood), and the lower class didn't. This cultural change of identifaction was mainly in the fileds of language, loyalty to the ruler and (in case of polonization) religion. Some members of upper class managed to resist this process to a varying degree, and less and less with each generation. The house of Ostrogski is a prime example.

With each generation it was becoming more and more common for aristocracy to associate themselves with a ruling nation, while peasantry remained "Ukrainian". Gogol's great-grandfather Jan Gogol seems to have avoided getting polonized since he, as the article says, studied in KMA, a Ukrainian and Orthodox University in Kiev, and ended up settling in the left-Bank Ukraine more leaning to Orthodox Muscovy than to Catholic Poland. It seems that for his son, (Nikolai's grandfather), it was more difficult to call himself "Ukrainian" or "Ruthenian" and he wrote "of Polish nation" meaning simply belonging to nobility, which in Ukraine mostly meant being associated with Poland. The article is clear on that. It calls N.G. "Ukrainian-born", calls his family "of Ukrainian nobility". That they "associated themselves with Polish nation" does not contradict that. If you don't think it's clear, change it to your own version

As for the lead sentence, I offer this: "Ukrainian-born Russian-language writer". Russian writer is ambiguous: it may mean writing in Russian or of Russian descent. Just like nobody calls Kafka a German writer (he's a German-language writer), or that a Chinese writer may mean a Chinese writing in other languages, this lead ought to be rephrased to be more accurate.Mandel 17:51, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

To make it less ambiguous, the phrase "Russian writer" is linked not as [[Russian]] [[writer]] but as [[Russian literature|Russian writer]]. I don't think it is ambiguous and, as I pointed out earlier the article List of Russian authors starts with: "This is the list of authors that wrote in Russian language. Not all of them are of Russian descent...". You may prefer linking to this article rather than to Russian literature. I think "Russian-language writer" sounds clumsy and I don't like how Kafka is introduced. But that's a matter of taste. If you want to change it, go ahead but keep in mind that most people view Gogol as simply a "Russian writer". This may be a "systemic bias". Well, I am bad in fighting it. Regards, -Irpen 00:15, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)

I can see both of your points. I think the current language is okay, but it may be better to write a longer sentence or two. Maybe something like this:

Nikolai Vasilevich Gogol (...) was a Russian writer. Although many of his works were influenced by his Ukrainian heritage and upbringing, he wrote in Russian and his works belong to the tradition of Russian literature.

or just

Nikolai Vasilevich Gogol (...) was a Russian writer of Ukrainian heritage.

Why can't we just say he was a Ukrainian writer of Russian Literature? I guess because his works belong to the body of Russian literature, or simply because he wrote in Russian? —Michael Z. 2005-06-15 03:40 Z

What Michael suggests is fine. It's clearer than what I suggest, I think. I don't know what Irpen thinks though. But it's clear that Irpen and I don't have divergences on Gogol ethnicity, it's just how it is presented that is problematic. Mandel 05:21, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

I have already added Michael's suggestion to the article in the

03:31 (UTC), Jun 15, 2005 edit by Irpen. -Irpen 06:26, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)