Talk:New Imperialism

I have gone through the article versions in a careful (and yet, admittedly imperfect) way to attempt to salvage what I can of both versions in the hopes of finding a middle ground which both sides can see as an improvement. I have tried to pay special attention to 172's immediate criticisms of Lir's version, but I have also deliberately not dug very deeply into the archives of this dispute.

Reading' Lir's version, I am disappointed to see that 172 simply reverted it. It seems to me that whatever flaws his version had, it did bring to the table some additional information which would undoubtably be of value to the reader. I have tried to retain those features while simultaneously not succumbing to what 172 calls "economic determinism".

For example, I found it useful to see the term "great adventure" linked to this period. I found some of Lir's phrasing (but not all) in the first paragraph to be superior.

To make a statement about the ethics of wiki editing: a revert is a slap in the face. Sometimes, therefore, a revert is warranted, for example when the changes are wholly malicious, or completely without merit. But to revert a genuine attempt at positive change, without even a cursory attempt to take into account the other person's changes, strikes me as wrong. Isn't it better to try to see what the other fellow is trying to do, and work with him?

I hope that my changes will be well-recieved, and of course edited carefully for further improvement. I don't intend for this to be the last word, by any means. It is exceptionally rare for me to edit at all, and I can't remember a single time in at least 3 years now that I actually got involved in a brewing edit controversy. But I did so because I'm really tired of this battle and because I think just maybe my influence can be positive.

Jimbo Wales 16:56, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I rewrote Lir's general overview, which overlooked every other trend and segment in society other than the "industrialists," in order to make it acceptable. However, it's now adds hardly anything that isn't already stated in breakdown of Pax Britannica section. This "general overview" was unnecessary to begin with (and nonstandard style). Hopefully, this will appease Lir, so I'll leave it alone. 172 19:34, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I'm confused as how you can feel that by deleting most everything I added...that you will have somehow appeased me. You didn't rewrite what I wrote -- you simply deleted my general overview, and replaced it with completely unrelated comments (which may have a place in the article; but don't convey the information which my text conveyed). My ideas haven't been edited by you, they are just gone -- where is the compromise, cooperation, or discussion? As for whether the "general overview" was unnecessary -- please explain why you feel this article shouldn't provide readers with an overview of the content. Lirath Q. Pynnor

Lir,

Yes, I didn't rewrite what you wrote; some portions of your general overview were utterly unacceptable. However, all of the points that I could salvage appear in the new general overview. Below I go through your general overview point by point:

The expansions of this period took place against a background of increasing competition over resources, strategic power, and prestige between the industrialised nations (following the erosion of the 19th-century's "Pax Britannica").

You can find this in the new general overview. See the first and forth paragraphs of the new general overview. 172 21:03, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

This period coincides with the rise of Germany, Italy, Japan, and the United States;

Yes, see first paragraph of the new general overview. 172 21:00, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

also during this period, China and Latin America were beginning to industrialize.

Hardly so. Even so, this would be off topic. 172 21:00, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

During this period, the world powers sought market and territorial expansion;

This is better addressed in the second paragraph of the new general overview. 172 21:00, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

merchants,national leaders, and other economic elites, desired new export markets -- they urged their governments to secure "captive markets", to end "free trade", and adopt policies of "protectionism".

(1) Only "economic elites???" What about colonial administrators, parliamentarians, military officers, missionaries, European settlers living abroad, etc., etc. If you're going to bring this point up, you should address the support among both capitalists and bureaucrats. (2) It also seems odd that merchants are listed first. The days of merchant capitalism were associated with mercantilism of the sixteenth and eighteenth century, not the era of the New Imperialism. The first state of capitalism--commercial capitalism-- was associated with merchants, geographical discoveries, mercantilism, and the increase in overseas trade wrought during the colonization of the Americas. Beginning about 1750, a new phase of capitalism, industrial capitalism, was made possible by the accumulation of vast amounts of capital and its investment in machinery and the factory system of manufacturing. A hundred years before the era of New Imperialism, the industrialist had already replaced the merchant as the dominant figure in the capitalist system; industrial capitalism mainly corresponded with the age of Pax Britannica. New Imperialism generally coincided with the era in which the ultimate control and direction of large areas of industry came into the hands of financiers, when industrial capitalism gave way to finance capitalism. I give you credit, though, for trying to account for imperialism's base of support, so the new general overview accounts for imperialism's base of support in the third paragraph. (3) Your point about captive markets and the waning of the free commerce of Pax Britannica is s now addressed in the second paragraph of the new general overview. 172 21:00, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

This impulse was primarily motivated by perceived economic trends -- as well as increasing industrialist competition over resources, income, and prestige.

(1) Certainly New Imperialism occurred against the backdrop of the Long Depression, but what about the breakdown of the Concert of Europe? (2) Industrialist competition over...? Only industrialists were competing over "resources, income, and prestige?" And only their competition was relevant to these trends? I don't know where to begin to address what's wrong with that. Your general overview seems to be based on the implicit assumption that the state is a mere organ of class rule (the kind of crude Marxism that turns the stomach of serious academics influenced by Marxist analysis), ignoring the international agential power of the state and the role of the state as an actor in society. 172 21:00, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

172 stated: "also during this period, China and Latin America were beginning to industrialize." -- Hardly so. Even so, this would be off topic.
- Lir responded: In comparison to, say, Afghanistan -- these regions were industrializing. Investors came to both China and Latin America, and invested their capital in the development of industrial infrastructure -- in that respect, these regions were certainly developing. This is not "off-topic" -- it is quite relevant to the issue at hand, since this "economic imperialism" was very much a part of the "new imperialism". As industrial output increased in China and Latin America, it further saturated the market; and thus, further inspired the European countries to increase and solidify their control of the global market.
  - Yes, China and Latin America were major destinations of the surplus capital of the industrialized great powers. However, the scale of industrial development in these societies at the time was relatively insignificant. Even to this day the majority of China's population resides in the countryside and is employed by the agrarian economy. 172 03:56, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

- - Although it has unfortunately taken you a year and a half to express your objection to the above sentence; I am glad that you have done so. I agree that it is somewhat misleading to merely state, "they were industrializing" -- I offer the following compromise sentence:
    - Also during this period, Chinese and Latin American industry was stimulated by foreign capital investment. The sentence should be placed within the General Overview. I have added it and made some other minor adjustments. (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=New_Imperialism&diff=0&oldid=4795643) Naturally, my edits are not perfect -- but reverting is hardly the proper way to improve them.
      - Lirath Q. Pynnor

172 stated some other things.
- Lir mostly agreed.

172 stated: Certainly New Imperialism occurred against the backdrop of the Long Depression, but what about the breakdown of the Concert of Europe?
- Lir responds: Why not mention both?
  - I agree that it should mention both. These trends were the flip side of the same coin, so to speak. And I did mention both. Please check it again. 172 03:58, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  - 172 continues: Your general overview seems to be...the kind of crude Marxism that turns the stomach of serious academics
    - Lir notes: That is a personal attack.
      - Lirath Q. Pynnor
        This is not a "personal attack." The subject of the sentence was the "general overview," not you. I assume that you are not a sentence.172 03:56, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Contents

1 Recent changes

2 I can't take this any more

3 Poll on the general overview

3.3 Third option (no general overview)

3.3.1 Support

3.4 Fourth option
3.5 Fifth option

4 Whoa

Recent changes

Once again, please allow me to go through the problems with the recent changes point by point:

Yes, of course this was influenced by the American Revolution, plus a plethora of other trends. However, this is a general overview of New Imperialism; the breakdown of British, French, Spanish, and Portuguese mercantilism in the late eighteenth century and early nineteenth century requires going into considerably greater detail than what we go into in this paragraph. This is a topic for a different section (in a different article). 172 04:35, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

...argued that there were no advantages in possessing colonies and that the cost of defending them was an expensive burden -- as a result, formal colonial expansion was comparatively small.

However, by the middle of the nineteenth century, other nations, such as Germany, the United States (US), Japan, and Italy, began to industrialize. To compete with British industry, these nations placed protective tariffs on imports. During the 1870s and 1880s, the free commerce of Pax Britannica waned as tariff walls rose within the US, Russia, France, and Germany. Meanwhile, as the industrialized nations gradually began to produce an increasing surplus of manufactured goods, Chinese and Latin American industry was stimulated by foreign capital investment;

European capital investment certainly had profound effects on the structures of the societies and economies. But what you did not see was significant autonomous industrial development in these nations in the late nineteenth century. Lir, I think we can make this easier if you just tell me on the talk page what you're trying to say. Are you trying to write a sentence that relates what was going on in East Asia and Latin America to New Imperialism (that seems to be my impression)? If that's your goal, this sentence doesn't seem too well-grounded in historical reality. If you want, I'll write something else. 172 04:35, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

further saturating the market -- the Long Deppression (1873-1896) convinced policymakers that colonialism, captive markets, and territorial expansion were answers to this growing economic crisis.

And some colonial bureaucrats found it to be an opportunity to bestow on themselves formal titles and feather their own nests. This sounds like Leopold, Crispi, and Ferry, but I would not just mention the Long Depression (the "economic crisis") as the only trend worth noting). 172 04:35, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Though lawmakers often used economic arguments to explain this resurgence of imperialist doctrine; it also had support from explorers, religious leaders, and the military -- who generally supported the movement for scientific, cultural, and stragetic reasons.

(The correct spelling is "strategic.") Everyone supported it for his/her own reasons. It's incorrect to distinguish one group and say that it's supporting imperialism for one reason, and then distinguish another group and say that it's supporting imperialism for another reason. History is more complicated than that. (In historical writing, a reductionism is a more problematic vice than an equivocation, so it's alright to be strategically vague at times.) 172 04:35, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Even some trade unions and socialists were supportive of the process.

An additional cause, of these expansionist aims, was the unstable balance of power which arose from the Franco-Prussian War, the breakdown of the Concert of Europe, and the creation of the new nation-states: Germany and Italy. Such competition resulted in increasing great power tensions and arguably led to the Great War.

Ugh. The word "cause" hurts my eyes. Also, when you're saying "arguably led to the Great War," you're making it sound too much like a simplistic matter of cause and effect. History is not mathematics. It was more carefully worded before. 172 04:35, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Firstly, if I write something, and you say it is "crude" -- that is a personal attack. If you say it "sucks" -- that is a personal attack. Try to be tactful. Lirath Q. Pynnor

I am uncertain how criticizing a piece of writing is a personal attack. Unless you are your writing. I would think a personal attack woul dbe calling you crude or saying you suck... maybe a personal attack would be saying your writing in general is crude or your writing in general sucks. But surely a comment directed at a specific piece of writing is not a personal attack. Snowspinner 17:11, Jul 23, 2004 (UTC)

But it is, give it some more thought. Lirath Q. Pynnor

Unless you are in fact your writing. Which is entirely possible, I suppose, given that you're a space alien. So why not also be a piece of writing. All the same, I find it unlikely. Snowspinner 20:50, Jul 23, 2004 (UTC)

You reverted a number of changes; when it appears from your above writing, that you only have a half-dozen complaints -- wouldn't it have been more productive for you to simply edit back a comple items...you do realize that reverting is inappropriate?
- 172 stated: "this school of thought (perhaps influenced by the American Revolution)" -- Yes, of course this was influenced by the American Revolution...However, this is a general overview of New Imperialism...This is a topic for a different section (in a different article).
  - Lir replies: this consisted of 6 words...is it really such a problem for you? If Britain's anti-colonial period was inspired by the American Revolution...the reader will benefit from knowing that the New Imperialism was a reversal of policy extending back to the revolution.
- 172 stated: Lir, I think we can make this easier if you just tell me on the talk page what you're trying to say. Are you trying to write a sentence that relates what was going on in East Asia and Latin America to New Imperialism?
  - Lir replied: of course, I would agree that there wasn't a great deal of autonomous industrial development within China/Latin America -- however, unless you disagree with the idea that foreign investors were investing in those regions...I'm not sure what your objection to the inclusion of that material is.
- 172 stated: "further saturating the market -- the Long Deppression (1873-1896) convinced policymakers that...: -- I would not just mention the Long Depression...
  - Lir replied: by all means, list other reasons -- please do not revert my writing, merely because it doesn't include everything...it would have been far more productive if you had edited the sentence to read "the Long Depressed helped convince policymakers".
- 172 stated: "Though lawmakers often used economic arguments to explain this resurgence of imperialist doctrine; it also had support from explorers, religious leaders, and the military -- who generally supported the movement for scientific, cultural, and stragetic reasons." -- It's incorrect to distinguish one group and say that it's supporting imperialism for one reason, and then distinguish another group and say that it's supporting imperialism for another reason. History is more complicated than that.
  - Lir replied: Firstly, its condescending to say, "History is more complicated than that."; secondly, do note that the text says "generally supported"...and, in general, religious leaders were not primarily concerned with creating strategic naval bases...military leaders were not primarily concerned with spreading christianity...and explorers were primarily concerned with science and discovery.
- 172 stated: ";;Such competition resulted in increasing great power tensions and arguably led to the Great War." --Also, when you're saying "arguably led to the Great War," you're making it sound too much like a simplistic matter of cause and effect.
  - Lir replies: Not at all, the earlier text said that the New Imperialism "laid the foundations" for the Great War -- it is our POV that this economic competition had an impact on the Great War...there are others who will insist it had other causes.

Since you raised only 5 objections to my revision; each of which I believe can be addressed by briefly editing the relevant section of my version -- I will do so, and we shall see if you have further objections. If you find it tedious objecting to each point -- try editing my revision, don't revert everything simply because of a few grammar issues. You can compare my older version with this new one, which I believe addresses (to some degree) each of your 5 points...[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=New_Imperialism&diff=0&oldid=4796474) I have also placed the final paragraph of the Overview, at the top -- it seems most relevant to first inform the user that this was a period of expansionism...marked by depression, unbalanced power, and the existence of new nations. Lirath Q. Pynnor

I can't take this any more

I'm just going to level with you. Yes, I do find it tortuous to respond to each and every one of your points. I know that you'll call this a "personal attack," but your writing is dense and based on a crude, simplistic brand of Marxism; and I don't see it improving. It is unreasonable for anyone to expect me to submit myself to another year and a half of wrangling with you to no avail. Let's just have a poll on which version users prefer. 172 21:12, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

What are your new objections to my revisions? Have I not addressed each and every objection you have raised? Lirath Q. Pynnor

Every time I go through problems with your changes you make even more sweeping changes with yet more problems for me to address. This is your classic tactic of filibustering, which is by no means unique to this page (And I'm just one of many who has had to endure this). After a year and a half, I know all too well that you're trying to frustrate me to the point of getting an ulcer in order to get me to go way and quit editing the page, so that you can ave this page all to yourself to impose your POV or personal agenda.

I'm just too weak to deal with this any more. Let's just settle this quickly and painlessly. We can settle this through the poll below (which does not state which version is yours and which version is mine in order to level the playing field-- see, I'm being fair). If I lose, I promise to abide by the results; on top of that, I'll even take this page off my watchlist and quit editing it if I lose. Call this whatever you will, I'm just being honest. 172

Sweeping changes? What was so sweeping about adding a sentence about investments in China and Latin America? That was about the most "sweeping" statement I added! You do realize, that this is a wiki -- I'm allowed to edit your text. Polls are not an acceptable method of resolving debate; you are going to have to discuss your objections. Anhd yes, its going to take awhile...this is a lengthy article. Lirath Q. Pynnor

I don't have another year and a half. I'm busy enough as it is-- I edit Wikipedia in the time in which I used to sleep. A poll is just an opportunity to open up the discussion to more editors. Instead of just talking with me, you'll be able to interact with other editors, who may be more receptive to the way you see things. 172 04:38, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I'm sorry if you are too busy; but, that really isn't an acceptable reason to forgo all discussion. Let me note that you haven't been discussing for a year and a half -- you have been avoiding discussing for a year and a half. Really, if you put half as much effort into discussing -- as you do into belittling, reverting, and avoiding...you'd accomplish a great deal of discussion. Lirath Q. Pynnor

Poll on the general overview

Version 1

The Long Depression (1873-1896) helped convinced policymakers that colonialism, captive markets, and territorial expansion were answers to a growing economic crisis. Additional (and equally important) causes, of these expansionist aims, wwere the unstable balance of power which arose from the Franco-Prussian War, the breakdown of the Concert of Europe, and the creation of new nation-states: Germany and Italy. The resulting competition resulted in increasing great power tensions and arguably led towards the Great War.

Before this era, Britain was the world's first and only industrialized power; its hegemony (Pax Britannica) was largely unchallenged. Between 1815 and 1870, a gospel of free trade and laissez faire had defined Britain's economic relations with the outside world; this school of thought (perhaps influenced by the American Revolution) argued that there were no advantages in possessing colonies and that the cost of defending them was an expensive burden -- as a result, formal colonial expansion was comparatively small.

Support

Version 2

Before the era of the New Imperialism, Britain was the world's first and only major industrialized power; and British hegemony (Pax Britannica) was largely unchallenged. Between 1815 and 1870, the gospel of free trade and laissez faire defined Britain's economic relations with the outside world; and formal colonial expansion was comparatively small. The school of laissez faire argued that there were no advantages in possessing colonies and that the cost of defending them was an expensive burden. Instead, British policy preferred to open the outside world to trade its industry.

However, by the middle of the nineteenth century, other nations, such as Germany, the United States, Japan, and Italy, began to industrialize. To compete with British industry, these nations placed protective tariffs on imports. The free commerce of the early nineteenth century era of Pax Britannica waned as tariff walls rose in the United States, Russia, France, and Germany in the 1870s and 1880s. Great Britain and its competitors—now producing a surplus of manufactured goods—began to search for trade outlets in captive markets; the ensuing Long Depression of 1873-1896 convinced the great powers' most influential policymakers that colonial empire was the solution to the problem.

Though industrialists, financiers, and imperialist statesmen in the great powers often used economic arguments to explain the necessity for colonial expansion, the New Imperialism (1870-1914) had support from a broad array of groups, including colonial administrators, missionaries, atavistic military elites, and elements of the landed aristocracies. Even some trade union leaders and some European socialists were enthusiastic about colonial expansion.

The scramble for overseas territory sprung just as much from the international rivalry between European states, stemming from problems of the balance of power in Europe that were extended abroad, as from their economic competition. Following the Franco-Prussian War, the breakdown of the Concert of Europe and the creation of nation-states in Germany and Italy heightened aggressive national rivalry, in which nations began to secure colonies according to what they believed to be a strategic necessity. Such competition resulted in increasing great power tensions and laid the groundwork for the start of the First World War.

Support

Third option (no general overview)

Support

172 21:55, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC) (Adding a general overview was unnecessary in the first place. Everything addressed in either version is addressed clearly enough in the introduction and the section dealing with the rise of the New Imperialism.)
I agree, to provide a "general overview" is what the introduction is for, so anything in the "general overview" that isn't already addressed elsewhere should be merged into the introduction. Gzornenplatz 04:17, Jul 27, 2004 (UTC)

Fourth option

Use a general overview that has the flow and concisensess of #2, but with the less POV language of #1. -S V 16:19, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

/Merge

Fifth option

Discuss the article. Lirath Q. Pynnor

With whom? -S V

Me. Lirath Q. Pynnor

Whoa

That's all I have to say for now, except, aren't we writing a parallel history to a lot of other Wiki articles here?--Amerinese 17:46, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

Retrieved from "https://academickids.com:443/encyclopedia/index.php/Talk:New_Imperialism"

Talk:New Imperialism

Recent changes

I can't take this any more

Poll on the general overview

Version 1

Support

Version 2

Support

Third option (no general overview)

Support

Fourth option

Fifth option

Whoa

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