Talk:Morgoth

"When the race of Men came about, Morgoth is hinted to have temporarily left his caves of Angband, and dwelled amongst them: ancient legends the Atanatari (Fathers of Men) tried to forget spoke of a Dark Lord, who led them to ban Ilúvatar from their hearts, and worship him. The Atanatari were those Men who repented and fled, but Morgoth ever after had many legions of fallen Men at his service. (Morgoth's Ring: "Tale of Adanel")"

I've only recently read Morgoth's Ring, and my first impression was that it wasn't actually Morgoth, but Sauron, working at his master's command. While it was said in the text that it was Morgoth, it was only the conclusion of Finrod and Andreth, not a statement by Tolkien as an objective narrator. Furthermore, Findor didn't actually hear Adanel's tale - only a brief mention of it by Andreth. While not mentioned anywhere in the text, in my opinion the whole action would be more in the character of Sauron. The Lord in the Tale of Adanel was presented as beautiful in appearance, and if I recall correctly, Melkor was at that time bound to the hroa of Morgoth, the Dark Lord. Furthermore, the Lord said that he was the Giver of Gifts - compare Annatar, the Lord of Gifts, the name taken by Sauron in the Second Age. Of course, I might be wrong :) Not that it's really important, anyway :). Ausir 13:52, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I disagree: it is very important. There are references that after his return to Angband Melkor-Morgoth only left the gates once, an event which is nowhere referred to. I am certain that this was Morgoth himself. As for Morgoth's appearance: he lost the ability to change shape after the fight with Fingolfin in which Fingolfin and Thorondor wounded him, iirc. — Jor (Darkelf) 14:05, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Jor, you mentioned when Morgoth left the gates of Angband himself: when he fought Fingolfin. However, you both seem to be forgetting that all that Adanel's tale is is a myth. As in Morgoth's Ring as well as The Silmarillion, there is mention of Eru granting the gift of men, it can be safely assumed that if Morgoth or Sauron did walk among men, it was not exactly as Adanel told. --Ibrantriel 06:01, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Why "the Morgoth"??? This was obviously a deliberate change, but throughout the Silmarillion, it's just "Morgoth". Shouldn't we stick with the more common (i.e. easily understood) usage? --[[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 12:42, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

In late writings, Tolkien always used "the Morgoth". No real objection to changing it back though. [[User:Anárion|Missing image
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] 12:49, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Really, truly? (I'm trying to find it in Peoples. The later references in the book definitely have "Morgoth" and I don't have time atthe moment to look up all the earlier ones.) In this case, with such a jarring change, I think it would probably be better to use "Morgoth" as standard, but reference "the Morgoth" as a possibility. --[[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 12:52, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Check the essays. The Ainu Melkor (most powerful creation by Ilúvatar) is contrasted with "the Morgoth" (personification of what remains of Melkor after Marring Arda). But I'll go change back, It does not read well. [[User:Anárion|Missing image
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] 12:56, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I have added some info on Morgoth vs "The Morgoth" in the article. [[User:Anárion|Missing image
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] 13:35, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Very nicely done. Thanks for the information. --[[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 16:54, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Valar are gods

It says in the Silmarillion that Valar are gods. → JarlaxleArtemis 23:53, May 15, 2005 (UTC)