Talk:Metre (music)

3/2, 6/4, 6/8

I've a bit of a problem with this:

In the late 19th Century and early 20th Century 3/2, 6/4 and 12/8 become increasingly common - for example in the 2nd Symphony of Jean Sibelius and the First Symphony of Edward Elgar. The reason for this was to change the length of the phrases that would naturally be built from measures.

Firstly, I'm not convinced that those time signatures really became so much more common in the late 19th century - there are certainly no shortage of examples of them in earlier music: just to take an example from something I can see the score of from where I'm sitting, the Loure from Bach's third violin partita is in 6/4 and the gigue of the second is in 12/8 (so is the Siciliano from the first sonata). Secondly, I don't believe the stated reason for using these time signature - the reason to use any time signature is to give the piece a certain pattern of stressed and unstressed beats. I don't see how this affects phrase length - whether you write in 6/4 or 6/8, it's still natural to write four (or eight, or 16) bar phrases, surely. Therefore, I think this bit should be taken out the article. Objections? --Camembert 10 Jan 2004

I agree, with one addition and one unrelated question: I just don't think 3/2 and 12/8 etc are AT ALL more common. My question is: Was the Loure from Bach's third violin partita written in 6/4, or is it simply notated that way in contemporary editions? (this question isn't at all pertinent to the removal of the above paragraph).Hyacinth 01:16, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Well, the edition I've got here (publuished by Peters, edited by Carl Flesch) is a sort of double-edition, with one staff for the edited version (with additional bowings, accents, etc) and one urtext staff - both are notated in 6/4, so I guess that's how Bach wrote it. --Camembert

Yes, objections. A four bar phrase of 3/4 is 4*3=12 beats. A 4 bar phrase of 6/4 is 6*4=24 beats.

To be pedantically accurate, the baroque had more common use of a variety of meters which became less common in the period immediately after Haydn and Mozart, and then came back again.

Empirically counting up the examples in the symphonic rep shows that these longer measures (3/2 etc) become more common starting in the 1890's. There aren't any examples in Brahms for example in his string chamber music, and I can't recall any in his symphonies or concerti off of hand - though I could be wrong, I'm not a big student of Brahms. Whereas Mahler's 3rd first movement has a 3/2 section, Strauss Don Q variation 8 is in 8/4, Sibelius' Swan of Tuonela is in 9/4, in addition to the examples sited. There are numerous others.

The precise way of putting would be to say that starting in the late 18th century 4/4, 3/4, 2/2 and 6/8 took over the world and only later did other signatures make a comeback. Stirling Newberry

Remember that we're talking about 3/2, 6/4 and 12/8 here. I'm not disputing that signatures like 8/4 and 9/4 are rare in the 19th century (though maybe it's worth remembering Beethoven's last piano sonata, which has 9/16, 6/16 and 12/32). To give just a few examples: Schumann, Carnaval, "Chopin": 6/4. Liszt, Piano Sonata: 3/2 in several parts; A Faust Symphony: the odd bar of 6/4 with the end in 4/2. Brahms, Romanze, Opus 118, No 5: 6/4; Intermezzo Opus 118, No 6: 3/8; Piano Concerto No 2, third movement: 6/4. I think it is at best unclear that these time signatures were less common in the 19th century than they were previously or later.

As for the length of phrases, consider this: An eight bar phrase of 3/2 has 24 beats in it. An eight bar phrase of 3/4 has 24 beats in it. If both phrases are played at beat=120, both will last the same period of time. Similarly, if you rewrite eight bars of 3/4 as four bars of 6/4, it lasts the same length of time, and if from there you put it into 6/8, that also makes no difference. And it is quite possible to write one bar phrases in 12/8 and eight bar phrases in 2/4 and have the latter feel longer in every respect. You say that 3/2 gives you a "longer measure", but it doesn't at all - just as in 3/4 it gives you a measure with three beats in it, it's just that the beats are minims rather than crotchets. The relationship between time signature and phrase length is extremely tenuous.

I am therefore removing the second part of the passage I quoted above from the article and rewriting the first part. I wonder if much of it doesn't properly belong at time signature rather than here, though, as there's no discernable difference between 3/2 and 3/4 when you listen to them, there's only a notational difference (that's a relatively small quibble, though). --Camembert 11 Jan 2004

Agreed. However, I think there is a (weak) convention to use n/2, etc. for fast music (e.g. Vivace, Presto), and n/8 for slower music (e.g. Adagio). I am not so sure of this that I want to edit the article, though. Han-Kwang (talk) 16:19, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

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The following tables may be a bit much for the article, but should help someone:

	Duple:	Triple:
Simple:	beats divided in two, two beats per measure	beats divided in three, two beats per measure
Compound:	beats divided in two, three beats per measure	beats divided in three, three beats per measure

	Beats divided in two:	Beats divided in three:
Two beats per measure:	simple duple	simple triple
Three beats per measure:	compound duple	compound triple

Hyacinth 23:16, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Spelling

Isn't "meter" the common spelling of this term?

It is in the United States. "Metre" is the correct British spelling. See Wikipedia:Manual of Style#National varieties of English. —Caesura^(t) 02:58, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

24/16 and C combination as a pseudo-polymeter?

Hi all,

Here is a question on terminology. One may find a simultaneous appearance of, say, 24/16 time and common (C) time in very "classical" music, e.g. in J.S.Bach's and other baroque composers' organ chorales. That is - the chorale melody in the bass (pedal) is notated in common time (C) while the upper voices (manuals) are notated in 24/16. In fact, of course it is not a polymeter in a very strict sence of the word, this is a kind of convenient notation (traced back, actually, to Middle Ages mensural divisions) assuming that each bar of 24/16 corresponds to four beats of C by four groups of 6 sixteenths (24 = 4*6). Using more "modern" notation, one could notate the time signature C in all voices and use four sextuplets instead of 24/16 (that may be inconvenient if the rythms of upper voices are more or less reach), or write 24/16 in all voices, notating the chorale melody by dotted quarters instead of normal. I hope I was clear :).

The question is - may this combination be called, nevertheless, "polymetrical" (or, "graphically polymetrical", "pseudo-polimetrical", "formally polymetrical"), since formally it contains a simultaneous use of differently notated metres (in sence of "time signatures"). If not, is it possible to invent a term for such a situation? Anyway, I guess this such a situation is treated as a "polymetre" from viewpoint of computer score-editors, like Sibelius :).