Talk:MathWorld

I've changed Eric's Treasure Trove of Mathematics to Eric's Treasure Trove of Science because the FAQ's at MathWorld and ScienceWorld both seem to indicate that the original title of his first website (compiled from his working notes) was Eric's Treasure Trove of Science. I'm uncertain this is correct, but sufficiently certain to update it to reflect "science". Can someone please confirm this or cite a counterexample for where it was listed as "...of Math"?

--SocratesJedi

Quality section and NPOV concerns

I removed the Quality section:

MathWorld as of 2000 is fill with egregious errors and misleading materials. For example, it purports that a sphere is a minimal surface, and Wallpaper Groups being finite group. There are huge amounts of questionable entries from lay-men level creational math books. The large amountt of errors and copy-and-paste exerpts from diverse popular books can still be seen as of 2004-12.

As it stands, it is simply not neutrally worded. Furthermore, there is no independent assesment provided here. Regardless of whether these errors are valid or not, Wikipedia cannot take a POV on the matter. It must come from some other source. Dysprosia 09:51, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Do one personally actually have proper experience regarding the subject matter? If not, please do not be an NPOV/POV wiki addict and wanting to touch everything. Leave articles to qualified people. Now, if and when somebody has personal experience or related assertions to contribute on the subject matter, we may then discuss proofs. Xah Lee 11:23, 2005 Jan 3 (UTC)

You are making two assumptions both which do nothing at all to address the problem at hand: that I do not know about the subject matter at hand, and that I have come to this article randomly. Both are incorrect. It is counterproductive for you to say "Leave articles to qualified people" when the objection I raise has nothing to do with qualifications but with Wikipedia policy which you should be already familiar with.

I shall reiterate: regardless of whether these errors are valid or not, regardless of whether you personally can provide proofs of these errors or not, Wikipedia cannot take a point of view on the matter, nor promote a point of view of its subject matter. That is intrinsic to the "non-negotiable" Wikipedia:NPOV policy that all edits must come under. When someone else independently points out these errors of Mathworld, then we can highlight and add them. Dysprosia 13:02, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

just don't meta edit. Some people hogs wikipedia all over every article, majority of which fluff edits. For wikipedia to progress seriously, it needs more professionals, and less fluff edits and POV/NPOV police. Xah Lee 20:50, 2005 Jan 3 (UTC)

I am not "meta editing". NPOV is not negotiable. You can't simply skip it using the reasoning that Wikipedia needs to progress seriously without it. You have avoided the point again. Dysprosia 23:33, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

See also Wikipedia:No original research. Ambi 00:00, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I've personally found that on occasion when I look at MathWorld, there is some kind of error or misleading remark or just nonsense. I wouldn't say it occurs most of the time, just sometimes. It's been a source of discussion on the newsgroup sci.math, with different mathematicians pitching in and giving their opinion that MathWorld is not very reliable. So as for verification, there could be a link to some of these usenet postings that have been stored by Google Groups. I don't think anybody (besides Xah Lee) would say it's filled with errors though. It's simply not fair or accurate to say it is. The entire section should be rewritten to say something like "concerns have been raised regarding the number of errors in MathWorld. As its popularity as a reference grows, some worry that it is seen as authoritative when, in their eyes, it is rather just a convenient source of information" and then give some cites to some usenet postings. --Chan-Ho Suh 10:49, Jan 5, 2005 (UTC)

I've deleted the "quality" section. As it stood, it was filled with unsubstantiated claims. I've given one solution above on how to write such a section. Another way would be to find some source who has done some kind of substantive study showing MathWorld is consistently wrong, more than say, Wikipedia or any other source, online or otherwise. But that kind of study would be difficult, I imagine. In any case, it's better, I think, to delete it for now since it may take a while to write a reasonable section on MathWorld and quality issues. --Chan-Ho Suh 12:38, Jan 5, 2005 (UTC)

I've written something up using your guidelines and posted it. Please comment on it. I did look for a list of inconsistencies in MathWorld as is suggested by some posters to sci.math, but it seems that any post is necessary incomplete because Eric Weisstein, the encyclopedist of MathWorld, would have corrected these errors soon after they were found. I suggest that we also add some sort of comment like "MathWorld has been improving from 2000-2004" since it's true because errors have time to be identified. I even read one poster at sci.math that used to routinely submit error lists to Weisstein in order to make mathworld better. In any case, I also think it might be good to have some type of opposing side that claims that MathWorld is pretty good in order to be NPOV. I felt slightly like I was running MathWorld down, but tried to be as NPOV as possible with the information I have. In any case, I hope this is a good start on some sort of compromise. Let me know what you think here or on my talk page. Regards, -SocratesJedi 22:40, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I really like what you've done! The only thing I have a problem with is "some people suggest that there are sometimes misleading or false statements.". This, to my ears, is like saying "some people suggest that on the internet there are sometimes misleading or false statements". It's verifiable that there were (and are) still errors and there is no need to interpret NPOV in this case as saying we should not point out something factually correct. Of course, there is that issue of errors getting fixed as they are getting pointed out; I'm tempted to go find some errors, but as soon as they are on Wikipedia, I'm sure Weisstein will fix it! In any case, I don't think the fact that the found errors are no longer there should stop us from saying "people have found errors". If Weisstein and Wolfram want to dispute that, they can and become laughingstocks. But I doubt they will :-) Even though the "evidence" may no longer be there, since nobody is going to dispute that errors have been found (and fixed), I think it's ok to say so. --Chan-Ho Suh 23:39, Jan 5, 2005 (UTC)

Good point, Chan-Ho Suh. I'm trying to reword this to reflect this. Also on my talk page, Dysprosia requested that I post a few of the links from the usenet group sci.math that show charges of inaccuracy. They're actually kind of hard to find since there aren't any blatent posts that are dedicated to talking about mathworld's inaccuracy but most references come up when some user attempts to cite mathworld as a resource and then someone says "Well, you can't trust that, let me see what you've got here" or something to that effect.. Anyway, a very incomplete list:

• [1] (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/sci.math/browse_thread/thread/97a906ba4b8d774b/f6488e9717c7f352?q=mathworld+errors&_done=%2Fgroup%2Fsci.math%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dmathworld+errors%26start%3D10%26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#f6488e9717c7f352)
• [2] (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/sci.math/browse_thread/thread/e4b7b1197966d698/4f82bf4d1db37d1f?q=mathworld+errors&_done=%2Fgroup%2Fsci.math%2Fsearch%3Fgroup%3Dsci.math%26q%3Dmathworld+errors%26qt_g%3D1%26searchnow%3DSearch+this+group%26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#4f82bf4d1db37d1f)
• [3] (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/sci.math/browse_thread/thread/35d4a866c177f291/c677cc4c88c59dce?q=mathworld+errors&_done=%2Fgroup%2Fsci.math%2Fsearch%3Fgroup%3Dsci.math%26q%3Dmathworld+errors%26qt_g%3D1%26searchnow%3DSearch+this+group%26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#c677cc4c88c59dce)
• [4] (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/sci.math/browse_thread/thread/97a906ba4b8d774b/f6488e9717c7f352?q=mathworld+errors&_done=%2Fgroup%2Fsci.math%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dmathworld+errors%26start%3D10%26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#f6488e9717c7f352)

Anyway, I've updated my edit... Please comment on it or directly edit it yourself as well.

Regards, -SocratesJedi 00:10, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

the moronicity of MathWorld and Wikipedia

dear wikipedia addicts:

whence did wikipedia became rule this and rule that? Use your brain and respect yourself. When you stick to a rule, it would be because you judge it proper. Meanwhile, try to improve your own learning, and respect those who have more than you. Try to get out of the sophomoron status. Ingest some perspectives hither and thither: http://www.techcentralstation.com/111504A.html http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/12/30/142458/25 (actually, go read a few printed books by dead authors)

as to the edit in question, See:

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/WallpaperGroups.html

and you shall see how wallpaper group is waywardly categorized under Finite Groups. (if that is ever corrected, i demand an acknowdgement.) As to it asserting that the sphere is a minimal surface, i don't have a printed artifacts of evidence. But a gander at year 1999 version (http://icl.pku.edu.cn/yujs/MathWorld/math/s/s556.htm) and you'll see the veracity of the general comment of how bad the work was. And if you are a math professor teaching graduate courses, you are aware how full of egregious errors and inanities MathWorld is today.

MathWorld is to Mathematics as Wikipedia is to Britannica. Good for recreation, laughable for research. And that Eric W fellow is self-pitching auto-aggrandizing, so are wikipedians being OpenSourcing sophomorons in general. Nevertheless, they are tremendously useful as they are. They need not be burdened with the "encyclopedia" title. And i believe, thru evolution of the editing process and thoughts, eventually wikipedia can become a reference for experts as well. But that will not happen as long as these wiki-sophomorons chanting NPOV this or Wiki-Creeds that.

Xah Lee 09:45, 2005 Jan 4 (UTC)

You may firstly want to not insult your fellow editors who are acting in good faith to making sure that Wikipedia articles are falling under obvious Wikipedia policy which you should have already been aware of. Don't criticise other editors for trying to make articles compliant to mandatory policy which you have overlooked.

Secondly, I may ask you to use your own brain and think about your argument. You claim that Mathworld's sphere article says it's a minimal surface, yet the outdated copy you provide, and the current articles say nothing about minimal surfaces.

You criticise Mathworld's article for implying that the wallpaper groups are finite but you cannot provide any independent source that makes this criticism? Do you have any independent criticsm of Mathworld's accuracy? I have repeated this twice before (once should have been sufficient): Wikipedia cannot take a point of view. If you understood NPOV, you'd understand that we need independent criticism. This means criticism from someone other than you, or I, or anyone on Wikipedia. You would also understand that if you found this independent criticism, that would be entirely acceptable to list here?

Perhaps you need to stop your own self-aggrandizement and read up on some of Wikipedia's mandatory policy. Here is a link: Wikipedia:NPOV. Dysprosia 10:42, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Interesting links. I especially thought the comments about anti-elitism and antagonistic persons being a problem absolutely correct. But I'm rather puzzled by why you think you are justified in citing these articles and telling others to respect those "who have more [learning] than you". You certainly have not adhered to this kind of behavior yourself (cf Talk:Manifold). On the contrary, you've insulted the learned mathematicians who have been very courteous to you and also called their contributions "moronic". --Chan-Ho Suh 10:47, Jan 5, 2005 (UTC)

addition of the moronicity of MathWorld and Wikipedia addicts

i check MathWorld perhaps once a month. Today i checked out the Whitney Umbrella doing research. And lo! it says that the Whitney Umbrella x^2-y^2*z == 0 has a handle that's the negative z-axis. What sophoremoron: “umbrella must have a handle!”. Btw,i've also saved it for future proof. Btw, Eric, if you ever corrected this one, i demand a acknowledgement on this too. Xah Lee 00:06, 2005 Jan 13 (UTC)

It's not just MathWorld calling it a "handle". It's kind of strange that you never actually mention contacting Wesstein yourself. Why don't you go and complain to him about these "errors" you've found? Dysprosia 00:33, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

the moronicity refered to was the z<0 part, not the handle. Refrain from being a wikipedia bot. Xah Lee 14:41, 2005 Jan 26 (UTC)

Refrain from talking like a crank and go and tell Wesstein yourself then, instead of whinging about it here. Dysprosia 00:27, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I concur with Dysprosia. Calling the encyclopedia moronic because you disagree with that it says is uncalled for. This is made worse by the fact that you're complaining about an editorial issue. (It's true that the entire z-axis won't show up in plots, but there is no clear consensus about whether or not the positive axis is included in the handle of the whitney umbrella (and intuitively one might even be led to conclude that the restriction z<0 is more valid than "z element of the reals"). So, we realize that you're skilled in math, but ranting on wikipedia isn't the way to get your point across. Go and contact Eric Weisstein yourself if there are errors that you detect. The encyclopedia is good on the whole. Check your personal pride at the door and contribute something positive to wikipedia rather than launching on a vendetta against Eric and MathWorld. Wikipedia is a reference work, not an opinions forum. -SocratesJedi | Talk 00:50, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

mother fucking wikipedian idiots. Die! Xah Lee 09:57, 2005 Jan 31 (UTC)

Go take your abuse elsewhere. Wikipedia:No personal attacks. Dysprosia 10:32, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I believe what Xah Lee is complaining about is that MathWorld defines a parametrization of the Whitney Umbrella so that it ends at height z=1. So when the MathWorld article concludes at the end that the solution set to x^2 - y^2 z =0 is the union of the Whitney Umbrella and the handle (the negative z axis), this is incorrect since the solution set includes the positive z axis.

On the other hand, given his incoherent explanations of the error, I can't be anywhere near certain this is what he meant. Even if this is what Xah Lee meant, certainly his accusations of everyone behaving like "Wikipedia bot[s]" is unfounded. Xah Lee needs to learn to express his thoughts more clearly. He also needs to learn to behave. So here's my question: if Xah Lee continues to try and change the article, despite having done nothing than cuss everyone out and ramble incoherently, what can we do? It's irritating to have to keep constant guard. --Chan-Ho 12:04, Jan 31, 2005 (UTC)

If Xah persists in abuse and reverting to POV versions of the article, we could attempt some step on the Wikipedia:Dispute resolution process... Dysprosia 12:33, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

the wikipedian morons have reverted the article to their collective moronic point of view. I simply havn't had time to involve their fucking disputes. I will make an effort to correct it though in the future. Just a note: all involvement in this edit war will be recorded by me, for i will possible publish an account of the moronicity of mathworld as i have opined, along with the wikipedian addicts's moronicity, including names or handles of the particants. Xah Lee 08:01, 2005 Apr 4 (UTC)

just another fact point i hope will effect some wiki morons involved in this dispute: about a week ago i looked up mathworld.com on cusp. Again, spectacular stupid info is presented there, by all perspectives. Just about every time i lookup mathworld for something, some egregious info shows. Xah Lee 08:06, 2005 Apr 4 (UTC)