Talk:Marquis de Sade
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I would like to move this page to "Marquis de Sade", which seems to be the more common way to refer to him. Any objections? AxelBoldt 00:24 Dec 7, 2002 (UTC)
- None, go ahead and move the old perv. -- Anon.
- Who cares where you park the crummy little bastard? Go for it. --Ed
- Horrid, horrid comments. Disregarding this unprovoked vomit, the article would be bettered by a more impartial and cognizant appreciation of Sade's biography (re: his alleged abuse) and also some basic consideration of his texts.
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a bit partial
I'm a bit amazed that so much space is given to a few rumors about his life, and so little said about his work. I don't think that De Sade is more famous for some crime -if he ever committed any, as there is no solid allegation of it- than for his books...
If some people are interested in his work, it is not the purpose of a serious encyclopedia to prevent them of reading it. You may warn them of the explicit sexual descriptions, not invent the content of books you obviously haven't read... Let people make their own judgement!
Ju.
Sounds worthy of an NPOV flag to me -- Jmabel 20:38, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Not for me, so I have removed it. The introductory paragraph clearly and IMHO correctly states what de Sade is famous for: his books. Then it goes on to describe his life and work, with roughly 40% of the article devoted to his work. If you find the description of his life or work inaccurate, please go ahead and improve them. In particular, I can't find any invented content of his books in the article, but if you do, just correct it and explain it here. AxelBoldt 16:42, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
And probably inaccurate
The factual accuracy of the Marquis de Sade article is disputed. I seriously doubt the story about the Marquis de Sade related to the storming of the Bastille. A different variant of it (which I also doubt) is in the article Bastille. I strongly believe he had been transferred to Charenton well before the storming of the Bastille, but I don't have a source to quote, just a reasonable knowledge of his life. It would be good if someone would sort this out. -- Jmabel 20:38, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Encyclopedia Britannica writes:
- A few days before the French Revolutionaries stormed the Bastille on July 14, 1789, de Sade had shouted through a window, “They are massacring the prisoners; you must come and free them.” He was transferred to the insane asylum at Charenton, where he remained until April 2, 1790.
It is my understanding that at the day of the storming of the Bastille, de Sade was not there anymore; he had already been transferred. If you know of a contradicting source, then please add it to the article; I don't think that your personal doubts are sufficient for a "factual accuracy is disputed" disclaimer. AxelBoldt 16:42, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
The "a few days before" seems much likelier than the implication in the text that this was an immediately precipitating incident. And the article in Bastille clearly implies that he was one of the prisoners on July 14, which Britannica explicitly contradicts. I'm happy to clear this up by going more clearly with Britannica's version of events. Axel, is this OK with you, too? -- Jmabel 23:25, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Certainly. There are various versions of the events floating around on the internet, but from reading a biography of de Sade (forgot the title) and from the Encyclopedia Britannica, I think the following is the most likely course of events: de Sade shouts a few days before the storming of the Bastille, then he is moved to Charenton, then the Bastille is stormed. This link confirms this history: http://www.monsieurlesix.be/history/briefaccount6.html and it gives July 2nd as the date, which seems plausible. I'll edit our article accordingly and I'll do the same over at Bastille. AxelBoldt 16:56, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)
- I wish I could've helped, but I was sleeping on the other side of the city when all of this is supposed to have happened. - Sigg3.net 09:37, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
From the Encyclopedia Britannica 1911
http://73.1911encyclopedia.org/S/SA/SADE_DONATIEN_ALPHONSE_FRANCOIS_COUNT.htm
SADE, DONATIEN ALPHONSE FRANC.OIS, COUNT [usually called the MARQUIS DE SADE] (1740-1814), French licentious writer, was born in Paris on the 2nd of June 1740. He entered the light-horse at fourteen and saw considerable military service before returning to Paris in 1766. Here his vicious practices became notorious, and in 1772 he was condemned to death at Aix for an unnatural offence, and for poisoning. He fled to Italy, but in 1777 he was arrested in Paris, removed to Aix for trial, and there found guilty. In 1778 he escaped from prison, but was soon re-arrested and finally committed to the Bastille. Here he began to write plays and obscene novels. In 1789 h was removed to the Charenton Lunatic Asylum, but was discharged in 1790, only to be recommitted as incurable in 1803. He died there on the 2nd of December 1814. Among his works, all of the type indicated, were Justine (1791), Juliette (1792), Philosophic dans le boudoir (1793) and Les Crimes de I'amour (1800). The word Sadism, meaning a form of sexual perversion, is derived from his name.
- Maybe we should add this to the article? Sigg3.net
- Well, the "licentious" and "obscene" and "perversion" is very 1911 Britain, isn't it, only relevant to quote to indicate a 1911 British critical POV (imaginably relevant, if described as such). Other than that, if there are any facts in the EB version that are missing from the article, yes they would be relevant to add. -- Jmabel 00:07, 28 May 2004 (UTC)
Name
An anon recently changed the name at the beginning of the article, changing "Donatien-Alphonse-François De Sade" to "Donatien-Alphonse-François, Comte De Sade". (Well, actually, they also messed up the capitalization, but I fixed that.) I don't know enough about French noble titles to know if this is an improvement or is plain wrong, but I find it surprising. Why would a marquis be "Comte de Sade"? I would guess that he should either be named as "Donatien-Alphonse-François De Sade" or "Donatien-Alphonse-François, Marquis De Sade".
- Although he is commonly referred to as the Marquis de Sade, he in fact assumed the title of Comte De Sade upon his father's death. Marquis in this instance being an honorific afforded to the eldest sons of counts. The correct orthographic practice in French, moreover, with reference to his name, as it is hyphenated, is to write only Donatien with a capital letter: the initial characters of subsequent names to be written in lower case: thus his full, official title is "Donatien-alphonse-françois, Comte De Sade".
I've never seen this capitalization practice anywhere (on this or any other similar French name) and none of the first 40 Google hits fail to use capitals (they vary on the hyphens). Can someone with a knowledge of French and a willingness to use a user-name rather than an IP address please weigh in? I'm really hesitant to take the word of someone who could so easily be trolling. -- Jmabel 00:16, Jun 25, 2004 (UTC)
- The Encyclopædia Britannica's article on the Marquis de Sade has `Marquis de Sade
born June 2, 1740, Paris, France died Dec. 2, 1814, Charenton, near Paris byname of "Donatien-alphonse-françois, Comte De Sade". If I find out how to use a user-name I'll gladly use it instead of my IP.
- You can make a user name by clicking on "log in" in the upper right corner of your screen and filling in the blanks. And then you can sign using 4 tildes ~~~~ that will be converted to your signature and timestamp when the page is saved.
- I do not think your suggestion is the common French usage; our colleagues at the French Wikipedia have their article at Donatien Alphonse François de Sade (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donatien_Alphonse_Fran%C3%A7ois_de_Sade). The "de" should of course be uncapitalized: the hyphens are usually dropped in English. - Nunh-huh 00:30, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- Thank you. I can find no particular consensus on the issue; the Encyclopædia Britannica's article was written by a French scholar, but I suppose it's perfectly possible that it's a simple typographical error; or perhaps a vagary of eighteenth century French. If it is indeed English practice to write his forenames separately, I suggest we do that, without the hyphens, thus obviating any discussion of the correctness of capitalizing each individual part. The form of his name, however, I believe is right, viz., Donatien Alphonse François, Comte de Sade; although `Sade' is often placed first, as is needful in an alphabetized reference.
- Don't forget you can "sign" with the tildes for that added touch of class<g>. I think you are right that the style with no caps is an old one and out of fashion: I regularly encounter people whose prenoms are hyphenated and capitalized. As for last-name-first, or titles-first, it's pretty well established that the article names at Wikipedia are in natural order: redirectes could be made for any variants that might be common, such as de Sade, Donatien Alphonse François, de Sade, Donatien-Alphonse-François, de Sade, Donatien-alphonse-françois etc. -- Nunh-huh 00:51, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- i belive that he was born as Donatien Alphonse-Francois de Sade and that his father was Comte de Sade , perhaps he took the name up at his fathers death but none the less he was born under Donatien Alphonse-Francois de Sade . this link might clear it up (im not certain but i hope this helps) http://www.nndb.com/people/912/000031819/*
"bisexual"?
Recently categorized under "Gay, Lesbian or Bisexual people". Besides the fact that this category as such makes me a little nervous, I'm not at all sure it is appropriate. I realize de Sade did sadistic (duh!) things to males, but I'm unaware of him having sex with them. As far as I know, in sexuality as such he was pretty hetero. The article doesn't contain anything particularly to the contrary. Is there some basis for the claim? -- Jmabel 20:24, Aug 13, 2004 (UTC)
- He was listed at List of famous gay, lesbian, or bisexual people, so I made the bot add him to the category. I have no opinion on his sexual orientation, but if you remove the category, also remove him from the list. Guanaco 20:40, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- After being deleted, this has recently been re-added. My previous remark stands, but I'm not expert on (or particularly interested in) whether the Marquis fucked men. Frankly, I object to this Wikipedia category insofar as it is applied to anyone who was not famously Gay, Lesbian or Bisexual, but I'm not going to waste my time fighting over it. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:47, Jan 23, 2005 (UTC)
Comte
The following two edits were made recently, anonymously and without citation. I'm not fully up on the use of French titles, so someone else should either confirm of revert.
- "Donatien Alphonse François,
Comtede Sade, better known as..." (strikethrough indicates deletion) - "Sade was born in the Condé palace in Paris fathered by Comte de Sade (d. Jan-1767)." (bold indicates insertion)
Jmabel | Talk 18:58, Dec 22, 2004 (UTC)
- See [1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Talk:Marquis_de_Sade&diff=8719777&oldid=8713621), the anon has commented on this on the talk page. --Conti|✉ 19:15, Dec 22, 2004 (UTC)
Charenton
A recent uncommented anon change modified [[Charenton-le-Pont|Charenton]] to Charenton-Saint-Maurice (now Saint-Maurice, Val-de-Marne). I have no idea which is accurate, but certainly whichever it is it should be linked. -- Jmabel | Talk 18:13, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)
The anon edit seems correct. From [2] (http://www.britannica.com/ebi/article?tocId=9319298), [3] (http://www.ifrance.com/MesVillages/SaintMauriceTiscali.html), [4] (http://www.archeo.cg94.fr/noticeshistorique/saintmaurice.html) and [5] (http://www.archeo.cg94.fr/noticeshistorique/charenton.html) the following story emerges: Charenton-le-Pont and Charenton-Saint-Maurice are neighboring parishes; the latter, which changed its name to "Saint Maurice" in 1842, has the asylum. The asylum is nowadays often simply called "Charenton". I'll edit the Charenton and Charenton-le-Pont entries accordingly. AxelBoldt 21:27, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Other books?
I notice theres a list of movies about marquis de sade, but not a list of his books, I recently picked up a copy of "the mystifieed magistrate and other tales" by marquess de sade. However, many of these stories are given no refference. Perhaps they should be added for possible future articles at least. Jaynus _Izanagi 19:52, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
- If you have material to add to the article, feel free. I would say this article still needs a lot of additions. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:06, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)
pun?
"…Sade's most seminal contribution to art…" -- Jmabel | Talk 00:36, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)