Talk:Magic (paranormal)
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Cut from main article:
For more information, see: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=magic+neopagan+traditions+history
Note: the entry previously under this heading was a long, and poorly researched, theistic (christian) diatribe against magic. If you want that take on 'magic,' see the current entry for 'witchcraft.'
One slight problem I see in moving this page from Magic (paranormal). I was just writing a paragraph on Artifact:
- In role-playing games and fantasy literature, an artifact is a magical object with some marvelous and alarming power, so great that it cannot be duplicated by efforts of the player characters, and cannot be destroyed by ordinary means. Artifacts often serve as MacGuffins, the central focus of quests to locate, capture, or destroy them. The One Ring of The Lord of the Rings is a typical artifact: alarmingly powerful, of ancient and obscure origin, and almost indestructible.
A link to Magic (religion) just doesn't make sense here. The magic I'm talking about is definitely paranormal but I can't see it having a great deal to do with religion. -- IHCOYC 21:42 Feb 26, 2003 (UTC)
- I agree -- in fact, most scholarly studies of "magic" distinguish it very clearly from "religion" -- James Frazer suggested magic was more like science than religion. Slrubenstein
Moved back to Magic (paranormal) for that reason. The Anome 22:11 Feb 26, 2003 (UTC)
"debased"? Where the Potter Stewarting hell did that come from? What happened to NPOV? And if we're going to redirect magick here, I feel compelled to change the definition at the beginning.
- I moved the definition, and changed the discussion of Satanism slightly. But if you have something to say about magic(k) in Satanism, you may wish to say it yourself. -- IHCOYC 14:33 Mar 4, 2003 (UTC)
- Not about Satanism specifically. (I gather that some satanists do more or less agree with me on this subject, which makes me question the truth of what this article says about them. However, I'm not sure I know enough to change that bit.) I think that while magick can mean Magic(paranormal), the latter term cannot reasonably include all meanings of "magick". Therefore, I find the current categorization unsatisfactory. What do people think about redirecting this article to magick?
- With all due respect to Slrubenstein, I gave up any hope of trying to preserve the integrity of this article when it was moved back to Magic (paranormal). Notwithstanding the views of Sir James Frazer, this article does not in any way reflect what I learned about the nature of magic in the holistic context of anthropology. To wit, magic is a religious belief and practice that is clearly distinct from other religious beliefs and practices, such as divination, as well as secular science. In contrast, this article expresses a very inaccurate and ethnocentric secular viewpoint, common to Western culture, which puts both magic and religion in the realm of pseudo-science and/or proto-science and by some bizarre reasoning considers divination a type of magical practice. Ultimately, Frazer's research and the research of Frazer's apologists argues for a less Westernized perspective on both magic and religion, a perspective wherein magic is totally subsumed under the topic of religion and need not be contrasted with science and the paranormal. -- NetEsq 14:23 Mar 5, 2003 (UTC)
- There is, of course, room for a separate Magick and Magic (religion), which are currently redirects. They need not be forever. From where I see it, paranormal magic should cover all the several varieties of magic except stage magic, generally; including folk magic, religious magic, superstitions, and supernatural magic in fiction. There is nothing wrong with adding a separate article to discuss Crowley's magic in detail, or magic in religion; just so long as any one can be found from the rest of them. -- IHCOYC 15:09 Mar 5, 2003 (UTC)
- What precisely is the problem? We have an article on magic, this one. Magic is spelled in a number of different ways, including "magic" an "magick", but both spelling refer to the exact same thing. Are you saying that we should have an article that exclusively deals with A. Crowley's particular understanding of magic? That is fine by me. However, we need to realize that just because someone spells the word "magick" doesn't mean that they necessarilly are adherents of Crowley's system (or even have ever heard of the man!) RK
- The problem is that magick has a broader meaning than magic(paranormal), and yet someone redirected magick here. Why? This seems comparable to defining 'quadrilateral' as 'square', but more emotionally charged. It would make more sense to me if we transferred this article to magick, since I don't see how it can avoid touching on the other meaning(s) of magick without giving a distorted picture.
No, this is a problem. Magick does not necessarilly have a broader meaning than magic. In fact, they very often are precisely the same word. People just choose different spellings for different reasons. I understand that some people use these words in different ways, but most people do not. Within science-fiction and fantasy literature, read by millions of people, the words are often interchangeable. So you need to clarify precisely what you are talking about: Who is it that uses the spelling magick to describe something different from magic? Who do they do this? In their definition, how do these terms differ? RK
- Perhaps I used a bad analogy. The word magick has multiple meanings. Some of these meanings refer to magic_(paranormal). At least one meaning includes other practices. The latter meaning seems fairly common among modern believers in magic, at least the "western" ones. Certainly some influential people in this tradition (for want of a better word) spoke of "magick" in this way. (The article gives the main example. Crowley influenced quite a few religions, whether their adherents know his name or not.) Therefore, it doesn't make sense to me to redirect magick here. I feel unsure of what to do about it, especially since I still don't know the reason for the redirect. I'm considering redirecting this article to magick, since removing Crowley's definition or the explanation of it would leave a distorted picture and also because "magick" seems like a somewhat more common term than "magic (paranormal)". (And less cumbersome.) However, I'd welcome arguments for other courses of action. NetEsq, do you think the category of magick would fit what you describe better than magic(paranormal)? --Dan
- I think the distinctions you make are great, and I really want to read more about them. But I am unsure that magick is always a super category, and that magic is always a sub-field of magick. For the moment, I would vote that we keep these discussions within the same article. However, I do want you to discuss everything you mention above; I do want you to make these distinctions. Maybe we can treat this like the article on God. This is the general article, yet it has sub-sections which show that different meanings of the word exist. For detailed sub-sections, we then spin-off into new articles. But you could always start with a Magick article now. If you do so, please start it with a summary definition, and then explain how it is related to magic in general. RK
- << NetEsq, do you think the category of magick would fit what you describe better than magic(paranormal)? >>
- From what I remember of the original magick article, magick *seems* to fit the parameters of what I would consider a religious definition of magic. However, as everyone here seems to have a different operational definition of magic/magick, I think it is a mistake to try to aggregate distinct articles on magic, magic (paranormal), magic (religion), magic (whatever), and magick into a cohesive whole. And I don't think that disambiguation would do the trick (pun intended) either. Rather, I think that each of the operational definitions behind these potentially very different concepts should be developed as distinct articles and cross-referenced. In time, we may then be able to recombine the content of these articles into a cohesive whole. (And my apologies to RK if he is suggesting a strategy that is somewhat comparable but more straightforward.) -- NetEsq 00:20 Mar 18, 2003 (UTC)
We have to have one central article, or at least a well-organized disambiguation page. Otherwise no one will be able to find what they are looking for. Worse, people will find one or two articles on forms of magic, and then assume that they understand it, when in fact they might miss out on several other important articles. I think you still miss the central question: Why can't we simply explain that people use the same word to mean different things? If people use the word "magic" in different ways, then the article on magic must state this, and give examples of the different ways that people use these words. Our discussions here are not going anywhere, so here is what I propose. Please offer a summary, as you see it, of the different ways that people use the word magic. You clearly think that they use the words in such different ways that they effectively are different subject....so what are these ways? I know that you must have something in mind, but I really have no idea what it is. None of us can comment on how to split this article up, unless we are given precise proposals on what you mean. RK
For instance, do you mean to create articles on (A) non-religious paranormal magic, (B) magic in religions, and (C) magic in Alister Crowley's religious systems? Let us know how you want to split this topic up; give a short description of each form of magic; explain how these magical systems relate to each other. Only once you do this can we effectively comment. For now, everything just is too vague. RK
- Personally, I don't see the need for a central disambiguation article. Rather, I see the need for several distinct articles, including one entitled Magic (religion), with each article providing its own form of disambiguation. To wit:
- "This article deals with magic in the context of religion. However, the word magic is used in many other contexts in other articles, some of which may be very similar to the one discussed in this article and some of which may be very different and distinct. Similar to the concept of magic in the context of religion is magic in the context of the paranormal and magic in the context of fantasy fiction. Wholly distinct from these concepts is magic in the context of stage magic. Some people also use the term magick, with a spelling that is distinct and different from magic, to distinguish other concepts of magic from the one proposed by Alister Crowley."
- What I mean to say here is that I don't think it is possible to reach a consensus on the "right" definition of magic, even in the context of disambiguation. The best that I think we can do is to say, "This is the way that this Wikipedia article defines the term magic; other Wikipedia articles may define it differently." -- NetEsq 01:59 Mar 18, 2003 (UTC)
- I think you misunderstood my question; I was not trying to find the one true definition of magic: None exists. People use this word for many things. Rather, I was looking for a list of different ways that people use this word. And you just provided such a list:
- Magic_(paranormal)
- Magic_(illusion)
- Magic_(religion) ormaybe Magic in religion?
- Magic_(Crowley)
- We already have a disambiguation page on Magic that has links to distinct articles on all these topics. We can just add new articles to this page. RK
- As a side note, "magic" as used in science-fiction and fantasy is not distinct from these categories; rather, different sci-fi and fantasy writers use one or more of the above-mentioned understandings of magic. RK
- I've attempted to write a couple paragraphs at the beginning here similar to what's at magic (religion) to call attention to that article from here. It also contains my own POV on what magic (paranormal) should contain, as a general overview to provide pointers to more specific kinds of magic. I'm not sure now if this vision of the purpose of this particular page is shared anymore; if so, change it.
- The section on the history of magic seems pretty inadequate now. I may try to add a bit to that. -- IHCOYC 14:54 Mar 18, 2003 (UTC)
Netesq -- I agree with you that this article needs a lot of work -- I haven't done much here. But please see the recent changes I made to Magical thinking; I believe that article as it stands makes no claims at all about religion, only to say that it is different from magic; it certainly doesn't say religion is pseudo-science. As for anthropology -- anthropologists continue in general to distinguish between magic and religion. You are absolutely right that Frazer is calling magic pseudoscience, and that this is ethnocentric. But that is a fact (that Frazer considered magic pseudoscience). You are welcome to put in the critique of Frazer, that he is ethnocentric. Also, one can agree with Frazer's distinction between magic and science, and disagree with his further argument that magic is wrong (in other words, magic may indeed use the law of similarity and the law of congruence, but these laws may be real and effective) -- if you know of anyone who argues this position, by all means include it. Finally, by all means include definitions of magic different from Frazer's. But do not delete Frazer -- add important content, do not delete. Frazer and Evans Pritchard continue to influence many scholarly studies of magic. Many of these studies are more sophisticated than Frazer or Evans-Pritchard (for example, Peter Winch's Understanding a Primitive Society," and Horton and Finnegan's Non Western Societies) but they still work within the framework set out by Frazer and Evans-Pritchard, so F and EP's views are still relevant and need to be highlighted in an article. Slrubenstein
- Thank you for your considered responses. As usual, your position is reasonable and defensible and addresses my concerns. On that note, I agree that the work of Frazer and Evans-Pritchard is somewhat canonical to the study of magic. As for the finer points of a taxonomical organization of religion, science, magic, magick, divination, etc., etc., etc., I no longer have the necessary temperament to deconstruct the impact of ethnocentrism on these topics, much less explain it to others, so I am inclined to leave such work to other, more resolute and stout individuals, such as yourself. -- NetEsq 05:43 Mar 6, 2003 (UTC)
Touchée. I too do not quite have the energy (or time) right now to make those changes to the article -- but you are right that they need to be made clear and I will try to get to it soon. As I said, so far all I have done was include Frazer in the Magical thinking article -- I don't think I have done anything yet to this article but it does need work. Perhaps others out there can join in too. Slrubenstein
There are several paragraphs here now that have duplicates at Magick or Magic and religion. Some of the text at those articles is newer or extended as well. Should that stuff be removed here? -- IHCOYC 04:17 Apr 16, 2003 (UTC)
- Some duplication within Wikipedia articles is unavoidable; sometimes it is desirable. Although it is easy to click our hyperlinks to move from one article to another, each article is usually designed as something that can be read as a standalone. A small amount of duplication can make it easier to follow. However, too much duplication is a waste. The trick is to find balance... How much do you want to cut? RK
- Sounds like an appropriate cut to me. That (and other things like it) is a very specific piece of information that is not necessary to add context to this article, and I agree with you that it should be deleted from here. I originally thought that you planned to cut a lot more stuff. That's the only reason I was sounding a bit cautious... RK
As far as I'm concerned, magic is magick is majik. If you want to make distinctions between the general field of magic and what Crowley wrote about, why not just make those distinctions under Thelema or the Ordo Templi Orientis etc.? RL Barrett 22:09 May 6, 2003 (UTC)
I have preserved some rather severe edits, some useful, others perhaps controversial, made by User:65.206.239.222 at Magic (paranormal)/temp. Some may in fact be valid tightening-up of the material on the page; others seem to me to be rather POV in nature, and omitting data provided by what was on the previous edits of the page. In order to preserve that data, I have reverted the page to the prior edit by User:Pakaran. -- Smerdis of Tlön 06:45, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Ye folk forgot magic (wonder). lysdexia 22:22, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
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NPOV ?s
- this was the cue for Gerald Gardner... he claimed to reveal the existence of a witch-cult
- Gardner's new religion combined magic
New implies that he made it up, instead of revealed a long-standing (and hidden) religion. Is there any proof for that?
- feminists led the way when some launched an independent revival of goddess worship.
Ditto.
Thinking about it, I'm just going to make changes.
-- ~ender 2005-03-13 11:10:MST
- Is this the only reason for the NPOV notice now? The paragraphs at issue now read:
- A further revival of interest in magic was heralded by the repeal, in England, of the last Witchcraft Act in 1951. This was the cue for Gerald Gardner, now recognised as the founder of Wicca, to publish his first non-fiction book Witchcraft Today, in which he claimed to reveal the existence of a witch-cult that dated back to pre-Christian Europe. Gardner's religion combined magic and religion in a way that was later to cause people to question the Enlightenment's boundaries between the two subjects.
- Gardner's newly publicized religion, and many others, took off in the atmosphere of the 1960s and 1970s. . .
- Gardner's "cue" was the repeal of the last Witchcraft Act, which made witchcraft no longer a crime in England. He "claimed to reveal the existence of a witch-cult. . ." — is it contested that he made this claim? "Newly publicized religion" is fine with me. If this doesn't need further work, I'd suggest removing the NPOV notice. -- Smerdis of Tlön 15:47, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
"Supposed" or not?
As an occultist myself, I'd like to bring up the following points:
- [1] Magic has not yet been proven by any objective measure.
- [2] Perhaps magic will some day be proven, or it may just as easily be that something in the internal mechanism or nature of magick will always cause it to elude objective scientific detection (in practice if not in theory).
- [3] "Supposed" does not mean "fictional". Semantically speaking, something can be "supposed" and still be true. "Supposed" is ambiguous.
- [4] This page also deals with paranormal magic in fiction. Practitioners of chaos magick aside, I'm sure all would agree that this alone necessitates the "supposed" in the opening sentence.
- [5] The afore notwithstanding, "supposed" in this context could be taken to merely indicate that the method of affecting reality doesn't always work.
I think the "supposed" needs to stay. It seems reasonable and necessary, and I say this with a pro-magick POV. --Corvun 12:36, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
- Perhaps the first sentence might be recast to say, "Believers in magic (. . .) hope to influence the world. . . ." This gets across the idea that not everyone believes in the power of magic, while avoiding the fictional or pretended overtones of "supposed." -- Smerdis of Tlön 15:21, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
i suppose that some cchristians would be equally upset if they saw an aticle in here somewhere that said beleivers in prayer instead of just saying it like its fact (which i disputem personally) so i suppose if the whole wiki project is to be npov, supposed must remaiin, as long as its added to any religion articles where it is currently lacking.
NPOv header: why?
Apparently the NPOV header was attached to this page by Stevertigo, who objects to the "Changing attitudes towards magic" heading. Why? and what would make it better? -- Smerdis of Tlön 18:46, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I objected to it because it implies a fact regarding the state of mind of people - which itself is challengeable on many grounds: 1. it implies a "change of attitute" specifically to "magic" 2. where "specific" as applied to the generic term "magic" makes for a kind of dual-pov paradox: what is "magic," what does one mean by it and in what context? IOW its not well defined or commonly understood enough to talk about it as something which people have specific opinions about. Wheras you might say "magic" to mean something inbetween Crowley, Tolkien and Lovecraft, established religion fundamentalists might would view "magic" as a synonym for heresy, blasphemy, "paganism," heathen idolatry, etc. Not that the {{RFPOV}} is really important to me, its just that the explanation of the term ambiguities, the history of the term, and the specific history of what the term means come WAY before any examination of "current public opinion." So facts first, pro and con public opinion represented as such, somewhere down beneath "magic in film." :) PS Comment:reorderered sections - various hidden comments (edit page to view them) new top section "relating magic, religion, paganism and alchemy" underway. SV|t|th (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Stevertigo&action=history) 20:57, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I see now. (Didn't even get this before.) Would something like, "Cultural attitudes towards magic" be better? since that's what the section seems to be about, chiefly. I read it, not as an attempt to change anyone's mind about magic, but rather as an account of how people have held different opinions about magic in different times and places. -- Smerdis of Tlön 22:05, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- FWIW, I am not sure that the statement "As with all paranormal claims, magic has yet failed to be supported by credible controlled scientific experimentation, and can only be studied seriously for its influence in cultural or religious matters." that now appears in the introduction is NPOV itself. It would appear to assert that no one who studies magic to practice magic should be taken seriously, and assumes that controlled scientific experiments are the gold standard of truth. -- Smerdis of Tlön 14:00, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I may or may not agree - in the sense that various aspects of "magik" cannot claim to be scientific: they can assert their "truth," but the relationship between magical/magickal phenomena and claims of truth as science needs a clear definition. This does not mean a disclaimer necessarily, but rather a note upfront which sets tone for the article: that 'people of magic view magic as an aspect of their faith, which is associated with blankety blank, and blankety blank etc. In the contexts of X and X magic has had confrontations with certain doctines held by people of science, and each claim that the other is a blankety blank, etc. Keep in mind also that "science" really means "methodology for the open study of knowledge" and does not itself assert truths, but rather observations of the observable (ie even M-theory is "only" philosophy if it cant be proven). You can say 'in the domain of faith and philosphy, magic has X and X conflicts with X and X doctrines of religion. In the domain of observable and testable phenomenae, magic has X and X conflicts with X and X aspects of science. Eh? -SV|t|add (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Stevertigo&action=edit§ion=new) 08:14, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- a different definition of magic (well, maybe):::
to me, and others, magic isnt black, or white, good or evil, its just there, it is the mind of the wielder that makes it good or evil, in what they use it for. kinda thought that belonged in the article some where, but im not sure where, so i tohught id mention it, a and see if anyone wold like to put it in, or to tell me where to do so.
"Generally speaking, there are two types of magic: contagious magic and sympathetic magic." According to who, or what theory? I think this statement is too bold without some backup. --Tubby 02:51, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
Safeguards
One thing I miss here is a section about the different kinds of safeguards against magical "attacks" which are known.
Things from folk-lore to the writings of Starhawk (who states, that, for example, laughter can also be very effective) and many more things (there are quite many sharlatans out there, and people should at least know, that there are many approaches to this). (sprry for some germanisms...)