Talk:Macedonian language

Older discussion archived here: Talk:Macedonian_language/Archive01

Contents

1 Similarity with Romanian 2 Bulgarian words 3 comparison 4 Arguing about whether Macedonian is a dilect of Bulgarian 5 The last editions 6 Similarities to Greek Language?? 7 Pronunciation of Macedonian Ф, Ѓ, and Ќ

Similarity with Romanian

Anonymous 203.109.249.136 said:

Macedonian is NOT similar to Romanian in any way, i will leave this Balkan language league in here but I don't think its right.

Actually, there are quite a few similarities between Romanian and Bulgarian/Macedonian, although they are derived from different branches of the Indo-European tree (Italic and Slavic): look at Balkan language union for common grammatical features. There are also a few hundreds common words that do not derive from Latin nor Slavic and are probably of Thracian origin. Bogdan | Talk 13:36, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I think it's misleading to say there are similarities when they merely share words; using this logic, you could say there are similarities between English and Italian.

Misleading??? These four (or five) languages share similarities on a morphological, phonological and lexicological level, for more information you can take a look at Balkan language union, which though not full and exhaustíve, gives an insight into the problem. And I'll ask you (and all other people who have no linguistic preparation) to refrain from making such comments (or changes in the article) unless they do some extensive reading before that. VMORO

Bulgarian words

VMORO: Roccil, бутилка-butilka and шише-shishe баща-bashta and татко-tatko враг-vrag and непријател-nepriyatel летец-letets and пилот-pilot are synonyms in Bulgarian and have a practically interchangable meaning

That's "Poccil". Actually, I was only incorporating information from an orphaned article. Any errors in the information should be traced back to that orphaned article. [[User:Poccil|Peter O. (Talk)]] 16:07, Sep 29, 2004 (UTC)

This could be said as well about построи-postro and изгради-izgradi;застраховка-zastrahovka and aосигурувањео-osiguruvanye; летище-letishte and аеродром-aerodrom. About great - велик - голем: look at this page (http://www.google.com/search?hl=bg&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&q=%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B4%D0%B0%D1%80+%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8+site%3Amk&btnG=%D0%A2%D1%8A%D1%80%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B5&lr=). There are several pages referring to Alexander the Great as Alexander Veliki - and the text in the article says that "Golem" is used instead. In my opinion "golem" and "velik" is interchangeable both in Bulgaria and the Republic of Macedonia. About bread-хляб-леб: It's not a radical change, the Macedonian Slavs just dropped the initial "х" ("h"). And there're spelling mistakes in some Bulgarian words - I am curious about who wrote them. --webkid 10:45, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Poccil, what is this orphaned article called? You never named it... --Joy [shallot] 12:26, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Ah, found it. It was added as "Diferences between the bulgarian and the macedonian language" on 09:58, 25 Aug 2004 by anonymous user from 193.110.130.129 and with the explanation:

Diferences between the Bulgarian and the Macedonian language are about 15% total, about 65% the words in both languages are same but differently accented, and the other 20% are same.

It should be inspected and pruned of errors given that it's anonymously added. --Joy [shallot] 12:42, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

VMORO Could you two (Webkid and possibly Roccil) make the necessary corrections? My computer doesn't have phonetic cyrillics and I cannot work with the other one...

The problem with this paragraph is that these numbers don't mean much. I'm sure that a study of Slovenian and Croatian would probably give similar numbers, depending on how you define "same word, only with different accent" across languages/dialects with distinct phonetics, i.e. number of phonemes and such. Yet, there's no Differences from Croatian section in Slovenian language.

It would be nice if somebody knowledgable wrote a review of similarities in grammar and common vocabulary between the two. Otherwise, the article would possibly be better off without this section, as the intro already says they are closely related. Zocky 20:06, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

comparison

217.10.246.155 wrote: removed Bulgarian-Macedonia word comparissons; don't see its role in the article and was far from correct

It's useful to see just how different they are. Whatever you think was far from correct should be corrected, not used as a pretext for complete removal.

Anyway, Ogneslav? Log in? :) --Joy [shallot]

Joy, my friend, Wikipedia does not require log in to edit articles. So - I don't do it. I also use my Bulgarian account and don't feel like switching between them at each of my visits. Ogneslav

As for the list - it is indeed far from correct and I pointed this out a long time ago ~~VMORO

But it contains 31 word, and the above comments include 12 words. Are we going to censor the remaining 19 words, and why? --Joy [shallot] 12:46, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Because they serve nothing in this article!?! One part of the Bulgarian words are used incorrectly; another part were deliberately chosen to look "different" although they have synonyms absolutely identical to Macedonian - like letets and pilot are synonyms in Bulgarian, also shishe and butilka, zaplaha and zakana, etc.; third part are just loan-words - you can't compare loan-words, even in Bulgaria people from different regions use different loan-words for same things. For example in Burgas they say drelka (drilling machine) and in Plovdiv - bor-mashina.

And in general - why does the article need this list of words? It's short and incoherent. It shows nothing. Why don't we also put Macedonian-Serbian, Macedonian-Russian, Macedonian-Mongolian, etc. lists? What's the task of that paragraph - I don't get it. The only thing I see is somebody tried to scream "Mmmm, look how difffereeent!". That's irritating - tipically "Macedonistic" approach. User:Ogneslav

Ogneslav, I don't think you have read the text before the comparison itself, otherwise you wouldn't make that comment about the "Macedonian approach". Pls read before making judgements.VMORO

Arguing about whether Macedonian is a dilect of Bulgarian

Hello, we may argue as crazy. J live in Macedonia and J think that we better get to do something together rather thatn argue. Can`t you see that the Great powers of 20th century GREATLY DESIRED THAT WE FIGHT EACH OTHER AS DOGS, and dogs you are if you continue to fall in their trap. Have you read the Treaty of Njoi. Those b*st*rds split our lands in a totally incompetent (or a very competetent manner if they wanted us to fight later) manner. Indeed every border ever determined by the so called "Powers" was later a reason for a war. And while once again they are playing their cards we are in fight. And why should we be strong, the bridge between Europe and Asia, this strategic place should be week, so that it gets exploited for pennies by the western wolrd. Look at the western media for example. Once a media agency will say ".... so according to us the Bulgarian dialect spoken in FYROM..." and then the very same agency will confirm "....written in the Macedonian language...." Fools, you are behaving as "a dog that is told to sit, and in the same time is told to stand up, so it doesn`t know what to do". Care about our progress, history will show what are the languages. You get to understand each other - GREAT! Union means power. If you do not agree with me, have a nice evening listening to BBC news: "...the Macedonian language is spoken today......" 1hr later "The Bulgarian dialekt called Macedonian language...." J personally say: "get together and laugh at the miserables who are so trying to separate us"

The Macedonian language is based on a former Bulgarian dialect as indisputably as it is a separate language nowadays. VMORO

Which only confirms that it is just an argument about history at this point as the above (unfortunately unsigned but very insightful) poster said. Really there is so much that unites us in the Balkans, why should we argue about the few things that separate us?mitkouwcad

I don't know your nationality but I'll assume you're a Macedonian, so: While you continue with your crusade on inventing history and falsifying linguistic and historical evidence, we'll continue not to recognise your language. A compromise means concessions from both sides, not from one of them. Bulgaria offered as early as the 1960s a joint treatment of the works of Macedonian-born writers and publicists before 1944, as well as of the language/dialects and history of Macedonia (also before 1944) as of Macedono-Bulgarian (or vice versa). You refused and kept on with the previous attitude, the extension of which is the politic of the present Serboman government, as well. As much as it gets. You continue, we continue. VMORO

No, I happen to be Bulgarian. I just don't understand why we should be so contrary. Macedonians have it pretty hard anyway, and so do we. Please read the original post (not by me) again. It is the closest this discussion has gotten to the truth. As Gandhi said, "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." Mitkouwcad

My only answer to this is that you either do not know what you are talking about, or you are completely spineless. По-ниско от водата, по-тихо от тревата, а? Типично по български, да превием врат и да се надупим. Ти в кой свят живееш? Говори ги тези на някой друг, съобщения на мен повече не ми пращай VMORO

The last editions

About the "objective objection": No one disputes the objective existence of a separate Macedonian language nowadays - in as much as they are enough people who identify themselves with it. So you are shooting quite wide of the target as the point of the Bulgarian objection is the Slavic population of FYROM did not identify itself with the Macedonian language in the past but with the Bulgarian language.

To Exstatik - the Macedonian alphabet is a Cyrillic alphabet based on the Serbian alphabet with two additional letters for the palatal "k" and "g", this scarcely can be disputed. VMORO 21:04, Feb 11, 2005 (UTC)~

Similarities to Greek Language??

This is totally incorrect, the Greek language does not belong to any of the groups mentioned and is not even remotely similar to any language there, especially not "belonging to the same branch as Albanian" (!) Anybody with a basic knowledge of linguistics knows that although most of the mentioned languages are Indo-european (as are most Indian dialects) they have nothing else in common with Greek. Also Albanian has nothing in common with Slavic languages... This article is MESSY! Thanks, -=vyruss=- 13:57, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This paragraph is totally wrong, scientifically speaking. No serious linguist ever created a group of 'Balkan Languages'. I think this is a political move.

The Macedonian language is closely related to the Bulgarian language, and Bulgarian and Macedonian share similarities to Romanian, Greek, and Albanian. These five languages make up the Balkan language league, even though they are all from different language families (Romanian is a Romance language, while Greek and Albanian are part of their own branch in the Indo-European family). Macedonian also has similarities with Serbian, particularly Old Serbian. -=vyruss=- 14:09, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Actually, this is quite correct - see sprachbund. - Mustafaa 06:30, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Macedonian Ф, Ѓ, and Ќ

How are the Macedonian Ф, Ѓ, and Ќ pronuonced. It says in the article that Ф is pronounced as /v/, but not /f/ as I think it should be. Can Ѓ also be pronounced as /dʑ/ (voiced alveolo-palatal affricate) and Ќ as /tɕ/ (voiceless alveolo-palatal affricate)? Some sources also mention this pronunciation. --Hippophaë 20:11, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Wow I feel sorry for you guys. God I hope Romanians and Moldovans won't end up the same way although there are signs which point out that is exactly where they will end up.

I just have a question: is Macedonian written differently then Bulgarian? As in: are words written differently? And are there words in Macedonian which sound different( by that I mean compleetly different) then in Bulgarian?

Thank you Mihaitza