Talk:Louis Mountbatten, 1st Earl Mountbatten of Burma

The name of this article seems a bit questionable. We don't normally list people under their titles unless that's how they are overwhelmingly best known and I don't think that's the case here. He's often referred to as "Louis Mountbatten", "Lord Louis Mountbatten", and "Earl Mountbatten of Burma" - any of those is as common, possibly more common than, "Earl Mountbatten". Opinions? Deb 14:46 Feb 8, 2003 (UTC)

I agree. "Louis Mountbatten" is my choice. I was new to Wiki when I did my edits, and would have changed it then. Hotlorp 17:09 Feb 10, 2003 (UTC)

I vote for "Earl Mountbatten of Burma", since that's how I refer to him! I've just discovered something very scary, though[1] (http://www.archives.lib.soton.ac.uk/mountbatten.shtml):-

"The papers of the late Louis, Earl Mountbatten of Burma, and Edwina, Countess Mountbatten of Burma, form part of University of Southampton Library MS62, the Broadlands archives."

"The Mountbatten papers contain a total of approximately 250,000 papers and 50,000 photographs, including the 907 files of papers and 68 photograph albums of Edwina Mountbatten (nee Ashley), later Countess Mountbatten of Burma, 1923-60, with papers as Vicereine of India, 1947 (MB1/P-R, MB2/K-M); c.4,000 files of papers of Earl Mountbatten of Burma, c.1900-79, covering his service in command of Combined Operations during World War II, including material on the Dieppe Raid; as Supreme Allied Commander South East Asia Command, 1943-6, dealing with the Burma campaign, the actions culminating in the Japanese surrender in September 1945 and with the post-war settlement in the British, Dutch and French colonies in South East Asia; as the last Viceroy and first post-independence Governor General of India, 1947-8; and Lord Mountbatten's naval career in the Mediterranean and as Fourth Sea Lord, and his subsequent appointments as First Sea Lord, 1955-9, and as Chief of the UK Defence Staff from 1959-65, together with 30,000 photographs (MB2 and MB3)."

I hereby deny any connection with the University of Southampton, and deny that I have ever, or will ever in the future, go anywhere near the place, so I will be unable to do any reserach there... Ahem. Honest... ;) -- Oliver P. 19:54 Feb 10, 2003 (UTC)

I'm sure the most interesting were burnt... Hotlorp 01:12 Feb 11, 2003 (UTC)

Fair point on title, Deb. The thing with Mountbatten is that he would be equally well known and recognised by any version;

• Earl Mountbatten
• Lord Mountbatten
• Earl Mountbatten of Burma
• Lord Louis Mountbatten

Louis Mountbatten might be less well known; in fact largely unknown. (The Brits and their damn alkward titles!) But any of the above four would be easily recognised. On balance, I would think Earl Mountbatten of Burma would be the best one to go with, as if we are going to use a title (and I think in this case it is unavoidable) it makes sense to use the full correct one. Lord Louis Mountbatten is another wordable one, but somehow it doesn't feel quiet right. (Apart from anything else, it sounds like a courtesy title, whereas he had a peerage. But then, maybe we should use 'lord' always rather than the formal peer's title of viscount, marquis, baron, earl, etc) JTD 01:59 Feb 11, 2003 (UTC)

The titles Lord and Lady (and others) have complex rules, partly shown here (http://www.pemberley.com/janeinfo/honrific.html). This definitely excludes [Lord Louis Mountbatten]. In the scheme of the webpage cited, "Mountbatten" is the title, which happens to be the same as the surname in this case. Not shown on the cited page is the use of "Lady" when referring to someone who's been awarded the honorofic, rather than the wife of a man who's been honoured. We Brits find it hilarious when Americans talk of Margaret "The Lady" Thatcher! She's simply "Baroness Thatcher" or "Lady Thatcher" now. I withdraw much of my earlier support for [Louis Mountbatten] as the new title, after understanding Wikipedia's reasons for naming even minor royals differently. However, I'm a bit reluctant to go with the Burmese honorific, since that seems something strangely redundant by the time he died. Hotlorp 02:48 Feb 11, 2003 (UTC)

Re his papers - I wish to God other people keeping their papers kept as many. I know Mountbatten was a rather vain man. but at least somewhere among that multitude there is some important information. Beats people keeping a single sheet of paper on which they mentioned some crucially important piece of info. There is nothing as irritating for a historian as looking through an archive, finding a vital bit of info, and find there is damn all info revealed. (I once came across an important speech scribbed on the back of a shopping list, with page 2 on the back of an electricity bill and the rest . . . missing. I uttered rather a lot of expletives!) JTD 02:04 Feb 11, 2003 (UTC)

It is sooooo complex, Hotlorp. I have been trying to get some sort of logical approach to using titles (or not using titles, and when to do so) on Wikipedia. The standard approach used to be simply not to use titles at all - which produced the farce of calling the Prince of Wales Charles Windsor which isn't actually his surname at all, and even if it was, wouldn't be understood by most Wiki users. Having finally worked out some sort of structure that allows us to know what to call royals from various states, we now have the problems of the likes of Louis and his name to deal with. (Aaaagh!) I think we have to use some sort of title - because invariably people know him by through Earl/Lord. I'm sure he'd love us just to write 'Mountbatten' but it wouldn't work in this context. I agree the 'of Burma' bit was a bit dated by the time he died, but in general, if we are going to use titles (and using them seems to create less problems than not doing so - particularly courtesy titles that are attached to people's names) I suppose we should include the 'of Burma' bit, for it was his title. But after the nightmare of trying to create a workable solution to 'royal names' (which before was a mess, with five different versions being used, and edit wars between people who fought over what was the more correct version) I'm too knackered to try to solve issues over Lord Louis. I'm in the middle of trying to get agreement on how we refer to the likes of '(Lady) Jane Grey' and '(Lord) John Russell' so 'Louis/Lord Louis/Earl Mountbatten/Earl Mountbatten of Burma' can wait. I'm cursing myself for ever getting into the names thing at all!!! What's an Irish nationalist doing trying to sort out the complexities of British and world titles! JTD 03:20 Feb 11, 2003 (UTC)

I'd been wondering that myself, JTD! It seems a bit odd, when a Welsh nationalist and an Irish nationalist are showing more interest in the royal family than almost anyone else. But that's one of the fun things about this place, isn't it? I seem to have been stirring up a lot of debates recently (I must have been bored the other evening), but, when it comes down to it, the only important point I want to make is that his title was "Earl Mountbatten of Burma", not "Earl Mountbatten". So unless we go back to calling him by his untitled name, I don't see much alternative but to leave the "Burma" reference in the title of the article. It was, after all, widely used....Slight pause, while I ponder...Yes, I remember when he got assassinated, I actually had to check with someone that it was the same bloke I thought it was, because I had heard him referred to by so many different soubriquets. Deb 22:40 Feb 11, 2003 (UTC)

OK, now my choice is [Louis, Earl Mountbatten of Burma] on grounds of recognition in search results and snagging most terms that someone is likely to type into Google... if anyone cares :-) This from an English supporter of the monarchy who thinks there must have been something good about the old anational states like Austria-Hungary and the Ottoman Empire. Hotlorp 00:15 Feb 12, 2003 (UTC)

Speaking as someone who also thinks the abolition the Austro-Hungarian Empire was a disaster for Europe . . . but getting back to Lord Louis. I can see the logic of going for Hotlorp's suggestion of the full [Louis, Earl Mountbatten of Burma]. The only qualification is that the current Earl Mountbatten is not in public life, so he is unlikely to require a page. Which means we are likely to have just one Earl Mountbatten on Wiki. So I wonder if in this particular case whether the qualification of using 'Louis' is necessary to distinguish between earls. Though technically correct (and I'm all for technically correct solutions) in this case it might be a tad excessive in terms of making an already long article title longer. But I would have absolutely no problem with using it as a solution. I think 'Earl Mountbatten of Burma' has to be in; I'm open-minded on using 'Louis' and can see the benefits in keeping to a consistent style. What do you think, Deb? (I'm warming to the idea, the more I think about it. It does have consistency and logic, and the same rule can be allied to other peers. It is both workable and logical. Hmmm. To think I had a choice tonight, watch brain-dulling TV or think deeply about how to refer to British peers on Wiki! I'm currently in 'think deeply' mode.) JTD 00:50 Feb 12, 2003 (UTC) ps: it would also deal with the issue of how to refer to the two Lords Longford, the theatre manager and the author.

Hold on - the current Earl? I thought the current Earl was a Countess! I've just checked, and can't find any reference to the Countess Mountbatten of Burma having died. Her eldest son, Lord Romsey, will succeed her, becoming the 3rd Earl (sic) Mountbatten of Burma if his mother predeceases him, despite there having been no 2nd Earl. Unless you count a Countess as an Earl. ;) Hope that helps.

I think the technically correct was of referring to the Earl Mountbatten of Burma during his lifetime was as "The Earl Mountbatten of Burma", and since his daughter succeeded him, as "The 1st Earl Mountbatten of Burma". I don't think first names are usually used with titles in the way Hotlorp suggests, and I don't think we should use titles in a way that is technically incorrect just to make things "clearer". Of course, I could be wrong that it is technically incorrect, as I haven't really been in "think deeply" mode over the past few weeks, but hopefully I'll get back to it soon and then I'll let you know what I think and wreak havoc with all your agreed naming conventions. Haha! :) -- Oliver P. 05:32 Feb 12, 2003 (UTC)

DON'T YOU DARE!!! (monster smile - only joking!) yeah I should have remembered Countess Mountbatten. But it might just be a solution to any naming complexities that no doubt will arise to use the form [{first name}, {rank} of {title}]. For example, Ireland produced two famous Lords longford, brothers, one a theatre impressario, the other an author. The second is known to older people by his ordinary name, to the younger as Lord L. So there would have to be redirects used, but rather than stating who was the nth Lord Longford (which even I don't know), first names could help create a distinction. anyway, i'm off to bed, having fought the good fight by defending the Australia & constitutional monarchy pages from some nutter who thinks Australia is a republic with a queen. Yes. And on that funny note, bye for tonight. JTD 06:33 Feb 12, 2003 (UTC)

Heh heh! Well done on the nutter-fighting. My preferred method of dealing with weird edits is just to wait until hopefully whoever did them has gone away, and then change things back. :) Terribly cowardly, I know... As for the naming conventions, I still can't decide what would be most sensible. I suppose one could just use whatever people most commonly call people in the article title, but then give the correct form in the opening line, going on to explain that people actually call them something else for such-and-such a reason. I think that's the current consensus, but I think it's still being discussed on the mailing list. For this Mountbatten chap, I think I mostly hear of him being called "the Earl Mountbatten of Burma", so I still think he could go to Earl Mountbatten of Burma, and then we could move him if and when his grandson succeeds to the title. Maybe. I'll think about it some more. Goodnight, then! -- Oliver P. 06:58 Feb 12, 2003 (UTC)

Just to be contrary, <G>, seems to me like we haven't exhausted all possible names.

• from 1900, HSH Louis Francis Albert Victor Nicholas, Prince of Battenberg.
• from 1917, Louis Mountbatten
• from 1946, Viscount Mountbatten of Burma
• from 1947, Baron Romsey, and Earl Mountbatten of Burma

-- Someone else 07:20 Feb 12, 2003 (UTC) (P.S. -- put me down for Francis Pakenham and Edward Pakenham, and a cross-ref for Antonia Fraser<G>).

Oh! The article doesn't have a "Nicholas" in his name. Did he ditch that as a middle name at some point, or was it just left out by mistake? By the way, I see that Lord Longford is at the rather long title Francis Pakenham, 7th Earl of Longford, with his first name, last name, and title. So how about Louis Mountbatten, 1st Earl Mountbatten of Burma. Just to annoy everyone... ;) -- Oliver P. 07:38 Feb 12, 2003 (UTC)

Nicholas is really in there, I'll add it to the article. I think your proposed title is too short, though... [[Acting Admiral Lord Louis Francis Albert Victor Nicholas Mountbatten, C.G.V.O., K.C.B., D.S.O., 1st Earl Mountbatten of Burma]]. -- Someone else 07:44 Feb 12, 2003 (UTC)

Careful, I might take you seriously. :) -- Oliver P.

don't forget we have to mention Battenburg. I propose an additional two words formerly Battenburg :) JTD 18:34 Feb 12, 2003 (UTC)

Actually, I think Oliver's last suggestion, Louis Mountbatten, 1st Earl Mountbatten of Burma, long-winded though it may be, is actually the correct one according to our established standards. Deb 18:59 Feb 12, 2003 (UTC)

What? When have I ever been right about anything? You're confusing me now... ;) -- Oliver P. 19:11 Feb 12, 2003 (UTC)

Long titles are only bad if there aren't redirects or disambiguating pages at the shorter titles that are more likely to be linked to. Since we have these at Louis Mountbatten and Earl Mountbatten and even Earl Mountbatten of Burma, I think we'd be ok no matter where the actual article wound up, as long as they all pointed at it. I'm not sure there are any particular standards to apply: he wasn't royal, so it's a question of whether he's best known by his name or his title. I think using names when people have them is a good idea, using titles when necessary for disambiguation and using titles alone only when the person's name is virtually unknown. -- Someone else 20:39 Feb 12, 2003 (UTC)

I agree, but I think 'louis mountbatten' would not be widely recognised. Most of those who know of him would know him as in effect a British royal, as Charles' honorary grandfather (as he called him) or as Prince Philip's uncle. As a result, it makes sense to apply the general royal rules to him; though those who don't know him as a 'minor role' probably don't know of him at all!

I agree mostly with Oliver's proposal, subject to one qualification. As he used his surmame as part of his title, calling him [Louis Mountbatten, 1st Earl Mountbatten of Burma] seems repetitive and a bit of a mouthful. I'd drop the first Mountbatten and simply say [Louis, 1st Earl Mountbatten of Burma].

From Philip Hurst: The inordinately lengthy discussion above of what his correct title is seems to me to be a fuss over the number of angels on a pin-head. He was certainly Earl Mountbatten of Burma, but in fact his correct full title was "Admiral of the Fleet 1st Earl Mountbatten of Burma", followed by his honours and decorations: KG, GCB, OM, GCSI, GCIE, GCVO, DSO, PC, FRS.

My point, however, in writing this edit is not on his title, but on the photograph, which purports to show Lord Mountbatten as Viceroy of India. This is unlikely: the decorations are wrong. He MAY be wearing the star and sash of the Royal Victorian Order (hard to tell from the photo) but the other two orders are "foreign". As Viceroy, he would always have been wearing the orders of the Star of India and the Indian Empire. Neither of these appears in the photograph and so it is a safe bet to assume that this photograph was posed for some other purpose or occasion.

---

I've just be reading "War of the Windsors" - (see it here at Amazon  (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1840187662/qid=1090255400/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/202-3443747-0155832).) The book blames for the Royal Family of all sorts of hideous things. Also, and in particular, it ravages Mountbatten. It is certainly a jolly fun read. I might some stuff this article but before I do I wanted to know if the book has much credibility - I feel as I have read the unofficial story but not the official one. Pcb21| Pete 16:46, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I wouldn't trust Picknett and Prince as far as I could throw them. That's not to say that I don't think that Mountbatten was a dangerously incompetent pathological monomaniac but simply that I don't think this kooky pair, who are addicted to cheap mysticism and conspiracy theories, should be taken with anything other than a large pinch of salt. Just my tuppence ha'penny. --Mr impossible 12:58, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Contents

1 ancestry 2 service as viceroy of india 3 Career 4 Jeanne Marie Langtry Malcolm

ancestry

I confess to finding the Ancestry section confusing. It's difficult to follow what is being said of the elder Louis, vs. the younger. I was initially rather confused when I thought it said that this Louis had had an affair with Lillie Langtry, leading to a daughter older than he was... I worked through it eventually, but it might help if someone with more immediate familiarity would reword the section to clarify who is who, since they have the same given name.-FZ 18:22, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Much clearer, thank you -FZ 18:55, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

service as viceroy of india

i've always associated mountbatten much more as the last viceroy of india, however, this article only gives passing mention of this fact. unfortunately, i know little of his service in india, but, hopefully, will add to this whenever i finish reading "freedom at midnight".

m.

I'd say that, in general, the article is subpar - a lot more could be said...unfortunately, I don't know very much either... john k 21:29, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Career

After the loss of the Kelly the British Admiralty wanted to court-martial Mountbatten for losing her through his own incompetence and poor judgement, but they were overruled. This was naturally not made public, but was fairly widely-known in the Navy at the time. After the Kelly he wasn't given another ship

Jeanne Marie Langtry Malcolm

I don't see the relevance of Prince Louis of Battenberg's supposed affair with Lillie Langtry and the illegitimate birth of Jeanne Marie Langtry Malcolm to this article. Mountbatten wasn't even born until 19 years later, and the subject is already adequately covered under the articles that are actually about the participants. As it stands, it just confuses the reader (see previous talk contribution), so I'm going to remove it. -- Chris j wood 12:06, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)