Talk:List of states in the Holy Roman Empire

About this article: This article was started as a pure list of states. Then the members of the Imperial Diet (Reichstag) of 1792 were added, and this list was just a minor part of the article. The entire article was moved to a new location (List of Reichstag participants (1792), but final title appears to be still under discussion). The list of states was then taken out and moved back to the original location. -- Cordyph 10:18 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Shouldn't this list be fully linked, i.e. all names equipped with link brackets? --Liveforever 22:38, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Dispute over Livonian states

I recently restored my edits which included Livonian states as part of the Holy Roman Empire. Those edits were recently deleted under subject line "the Livonian territories were not part of the Empire" What is the exact definition of "the part of the Holy Roman Empire" which Livonian states are not?

Certainly the Livonian princes were repeatedly given the title of Prince of the Holy Roman Empire. The title of Prince of the Holy Roman Empire was given to Albert, Bishop of Riga by king Philipp in 1207. In 1225 the King Henry VII confirmed for Albert and his brother Bishop Hermann I von Buxhoeveden the title of Prince.

Wikipedia articles Albert of Buxhoeveden and Prince-Bishop confirm that.

Also, very many sources say that Livonia WAS part of the Holy Roman Empire. They are too many to quote. Just make a simple Google query like "Holy Roman Empire" Riga and you see many of them easily.

I suspect the only reason Livonia is in many cases not listed as part of Holy Roman Empire is that after 16th century all connections between Germany and Livonia were lost forever.

If there are compelling reasons why Livonia should be excluded from List of states in the Holy Roman Empire then I think a little more explanation is appropriate.

If you'll notice, nearly all of the states of the Holy Roman Empire listed are those that were there after 1648. Perhaps this should be made clearer, but it's pretty clear. Including the states of northern Italy (especially), the Swiss cantons, and the provinces that made up the United Provinces would be on there. Livonia's role in the Holy Roman Empire is far more dubious. Certainly, from the 16th century on, it was part of Poland, and after that of Sweden and Russia. Even before the Reformation, I think the relationship between the Knights and the Empire is questionable. john k 00:20, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I agree. However, the first sentence of the arcticle is "This is a list of states, which were part of the Holy Roman Empire at any time within its existence between 962 and 1806" and I believe many people are interested about Holy Roman States before 1648, Italian, Swiss or whatever. This list is indeed imcomplete but incomplete articles are common in Wikipedia. Warbola 23:11, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Article lay-out

I'm about to add a lot more states to this list, but I'm in doubt where to put them. I don't know what is meant by old and new princely families. Is that about when they became "reichsunmittelbar"? I think a completely alphabetical list (including the ecclestiastical states and/or imperial free cities?) would be more useful, maybe something like the table at the end, with date of formation, date of dissolution (or exit from the HRE) and the names of the predecessor and successor states. Markussep 12:29, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I believe that old and new princely states has to do with when they got a seat in the Council of Princes in the Imperial Diet. The old princely families had it before 1500 or so, the new princely families got it later. But, yeah, perhaps this isn't important enough to be the basis for the list. We already have another page that goes over the Diet in 1792. What I would suggest, however, is only listing reichsunmittelbar entities. Thus, no Dukes of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Augustenburg, or Saxe-Zeitz, or Margraves of Bradenburg-Schwedt, or whatever. If I were to make a table, I would probably have categories for date of formation, date of dissolution, which Imperial Circle they were a part of (if any), where they sat in the Imperial Diet (if they did), when they got a seat in the Reichstag (again, if they did). For states that split up into multiple states, I'd suggest some kind of organization that makes it clear. But definitely go ahead an overhaul it. john k 14:41, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Markussep - shouldn't the table show what type of polity they were, as well - i.e. Duchy, County, Principality, Margraviate, Landgraviate, free city, and so forth? A problem with this is that a number of them changed over time. Austria started out as a margraviate, became a duchy, and then became an archduchy, for instance. But we ought to try to indicate this as best we can, no? john k 14:52, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hi John, that's the exact problem, I think all duchies were counties initially. But you can do that, something like C/P for counties that became principalities, or for Austria M/D/A, in an extra column. I hadn't added any free cities yet, I'd list them as Cologne City etc. Markussep 17:17, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Bavaria, Saxony, (Upper) Lorraine, and Lower Lorraine/Brabant were always duchies. Franconia and Swabia had been as well, but became extinct. The rest all started out as Counties of some sort (although they might have had Markgrafen or Landgrafen rather than mere Grafen). For Free Cities, I'd suggest "Free City of Cologne," rather than "Cologne City." This is a more usual usage, and matches the German Freistadt Köln. In terms of adding a column, maybe, or perhaps it ought to be done in the "notes" column. john k 23:27, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Another thing - I notice that you added the other provinces of the Austrian circle (Styria, Carinthia, Carniola, and so forth). But be careful about when they went "to Austria." Styria, Carinthia, and Carniola were ruled by their own Archduke in Graz until 1619, and Tirol and the Vorlände were being ruled separately even later. This was intermittent, depending on whether cadet branches of the Habsburg family existed, but it is not quite accurate to say they were simply part of Austria. john k 23:29, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Austria: you're right, I simply assumed that if Styria, Carinthia etc. went to Habsburg, they would be in personal union with Austria, but they were different Habsburgs from time to time.

Cities: I try to keep the table "lean", so as little words as possible. I can do it like for the Bp. and Abp., some abbreviation. F.C. is like football club (e.g. 1. FC Köln), but well, why not. Markussep 23:54, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Man, when FC Aachen plays FC Worms for the Bench Cup, that'll be awesome! F.C. seems fine, though. john k 00:54, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I added a separate column for "type." john k 01:27, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

LOL! The table is getting enormous, but that was to be expected. Good work! Markussep 09:48, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)