Talk:Left-Right politics

Contents

1 Archive 2 How "general" is "generally? 3 Evolution of the terms 4 The "Meaning of the terms" section is awful 5 absolute levelling of wealth 6 communism advocating the interests of wage earners 7 Egregious recent edits

Archive

Talk:Left-Right politics/Archive 1

How "general" is "generally?

In the section on the "meaning of the terms", User:Sam Spade recently added: "Generally however, it is usually assumed the left favors government intervention in the economy but not on social/political issues, while the right favors the opposite (economic nonintervention but rather social/political regulation)."

This may be more or less true in the context of contemporary U.S. politics, but does not seem to me to be "general".

• The original "leftists" -- the Girondists and Jacobins -- were mostly laissez faire capitalists, although they did believe in minimal provision of the means of subsitence to the masses: at least as long as those masses were armed with pikes and ready to storm the Assembly.
• The Nazis, whom I hope we can agree were on the right, had no aversion to government intervention in the economy. I realize there are a small number of people who say "therefore they weren't really on the right", but frankly I don't have much patience for that argument. It's certainly not "generally" accepted.

Well, if the standard for being "on the right" is total laissez-faire and economic non-interventionism, then hardly ANYONE has ever been "on the right". In other words, you can make the nazis part of "the left" if you expand "the left" to include almost every politician who ever lived. - Mihnea Tudoreanu

• Barry Goldwater, conservative Republican senator and 1964 presidential candidate, does not seem to me to have been against most government intervention in social/political issues, if I understand yousr use of that term correctly. Towards the end of his life, he rather annoyed the emergent Christian Right in the U.S. by totally failing to endorse their agenda in these respects.
• In the contemporary U.S., support for affirmative action -- certainly a case of government intervention on social/political issues -- gets its support mainly from the left.

That seems to me like a counterexample on each of the four possible combinations: a left economic non-interventionist, a right economic interventionist, a right social non-interventionist, and a left social interventionist. This was off the top of my head on a 15-minute break from work.

On this basis, I'd like to just delete the sentence, and / or farther down the article we need a much more extensive discussion of this. -- Jmabel 23:05, Aug 5, 2004 (UTC)

I go for "and", as in delete, and discuss farther down in the article. This is not my sentance BTW, but rather one I salvaged from an big delete I believe you (maybe someone else) recently made of an anons edit. Anyhow I agree it is complex, and for example I disagree w you about the Nazi's, which IMO were slightly left economic centrists, but strict authoritarians (I like the view on http://politicalcompass.org/). Sam [Spade (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Sam_Spade&action=edit&section=new)] 03:01, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Look again. The Political Compass (www.politicalcompass.org) has always defined the nazis as slightly right economic centrists, but strict authoritarians.

At any rate, that's not the point here. IMO, the two-scale model has obvious benefits over the one-dimensional Left/Right model, but it is still an oversimplification of the views each camp holds, so we shouldn't consider it the ultimate guide to politics. For example, where would you place the Anarchists? They are leftists - because they wish to abolish private property, and institute a communal system of ownership - but they certainly don't favour "state intervention" of any kind! The economic definition of the "left" as favouring "state intervention in the economy" is flawed precisely for this reason: Much of the left opposes capitalism and the state. The Left/Right axis would be better defined in terms of private vs. communal property, rather than state intervention in the economy. I've personally written to the Political Compass about this, and they agreed; hopefully, they'll change things accordingly on their website.

- Mihnea Tudoreanu

Evolution of the terms

I took a shot at rewriting "Evolution of the terms". I think what I wrote is an improvement over what was there, but I think it still has a long way to go. Like what was there before, I have focused too much on America and Western Europe. Like what was there before, I have much more to say about the Left than the Right. I'll probably try to work on it a little further myself. I hope I'm not just triggering a big POV edit war here: I am genuinely trying to be evenhanded, but inevitably some of my own perspective will creep into this. Help welcomed, flaming not. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:56, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)

It doesn't look bad, but it seems a bit, well, marxistant, to me. The description of the parties in the French Revolution, for instance, seems to be straight out of Lefebvre, complete with the rising bourgeoisie. I think the extent to which left and right in 1789 were ideological groupings rather than socio-economic needs to be emphasized more - in 1789, certainly, great nobles like Lafayette and parlementaires like Dupont were on the left, while a third estater like Mounier came to be on the moderate right. By 1791, the left of 1789 was now the right (as the Feuillants); by 1793, much of the left of 1791-2 (the Girondins) had become the new right. But after Thermidor things clear up again a bit, and the groupings are essentially ideological - Jacobins on the left, supporting the constitution of 1793; Monarchists on the right; and the Thermidorians in the middle. But what constitutes "left," "right," and "center" is always dependent on, particularly, the nature of the regime in question. Seems to me that key in the discussion of early 19th century leftism is the distinction between liberals and radicals/republicans. During the July Monarchy, say, I fail to see any real distinction in economic policy between, say, Lamartine on the republican left; Barrot in the dynastic left; Thiers in the left centre; and Guizot with the government on the centre-right. All were essentially liberals. The nature of right-left conflict, then, had little to do with economics - it had to do with the nature of the polity itself. I think the same can be said for the Third Republic - it was Clemenceau's government - a government of the "left" consisting of Radicals and former socialists like Briand and Viviani - that was most effective in fighting strikers. One might add that the various Progressists who became Dreyfusards in 1898-9 were not supporting the "left" due to economic reasons, but for ideological ones - Méline's attempt to join conservative republicans with Catholics and former monarchists failed because ideological issues still had greater saliency than economic ones. The Popular Front is almost the same - the Radicals, by now essentially a centrist group, allies themselves with socialists and communists because of their common support of the republican form of government, despite wildly different ideas of what France's economic policies should be. Sure, the Popular Front fell apart after two years, but that it was formed at all shows, I think, the extent to which left-right divisions were not simply a matter of economic factors.While France, with its extreme division over the Revolution, this prevalence of ideology over economics is probably in its most extreme form, I think you can see that the process is equally complicated in other European countries. That is to say - what is "left" and what is "right" in any given country is really not clear-cut at all. Of course, some things (socialism) are clearly and always on the left; while others (high "reaction," "legitimism" in whatever form it may take in different countries; "crown and altar conservatism") are always on the right. But that vast middle ground in between, which stretched from "radicalism" on the left to the kind of liberal-conservatism exemplified by a Guizot, may be left or right depending on the political contexts of an individual country. At any rate, forgive me for the long post which has little in the way of specific suggestions - practicing for my exams and thinking "out loud" as much as commenting on the article, I guess. But I'll definitely try to look over the section and make improvements. john k 06:09, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I plead guilty to reading Lefebvre. And Soboul. And while I'm not a Marxist, I'm enough of a red-diaper baby to generally think of politicians in terms of whose interests they serve than their overt ideology.

As I said, I don't think I've got the definitive rewrite here, just something considerably more coherent than what it replaced.

As for Lafayette and Dupont: well, sort of. They were on the quite moderate left. I admit I don't know too much about Dupont or Mounier; Lafayette is a very interesting figure: he clearly wanted things to go just so far and no further. In general, I agree with your summary of the lefts and rights of the French Revolutionary era; it seems a bit much for this article, but perhaps it does belong, because it shows how problematic this all is. I also agree with you on early 19th century liberals vs. radicals/republicans: probably belongs in the article. But I'm weak on that. I'm pretty strong on the history from 1789 down to Thermidor, then I'm a lot weaker until 1848. (Hey, I was a Math major, what can I say?)

All in all, it sounds like you know more about this than I do. I'd very much welcome a rewrite by you. Just remember not to lose the forest for the trees! -- Jmabel | Talk 07:18, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with you that Lafayette was not very far left. But Dupont and the Lameth brothers, who with Barnave (not a nobleman) were the early leaders of the Jacobins, were certainly on the left. They only moved towards a more conservative position after the flight to Varennes. And of course, there's all that recent work which has shown how the differences between the kind of professional third estate types who were in the Constituent Assembly and the nobles were not necessarily economic, so much as status-based. I'll try to rework it at some point soon, but I say that a lot, and often don't get to it...I should really put a to do list on my user page. john k 23:35, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I certainly agree that status was as important as economics. For example, the formal abolition of titles probably did more to alienate the nobility than the abolition (with partial compensation) of their feudal rights. That's more for the French Revolution articles than here, though.

Anyway, as I say, I'd welcome having you take a shot at that passage, as long as we don't get too bogged down in the details of French Revolutionary politics and focus on the shifts in the meaning of "left" and "right". -- Jmabel | Talk 01:00, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)

And along these lines... has anyone looked at this edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Left-Right_politics&diff=next&oldid=15031025) by User:Pearlg? Seems to me to be a bit confused and confusing. Referring to the early left as a "movement" rather than an ideological tendency seems wrong to me. I don't understand the reason for dropping mention of the narrow franchise in French politics at the time of the original Left, and expansion of the franchise thereafter. And it seems odd to me to drop "the original 'Left' represented mainly the interests of the bourgeoisie, the rising capitalist class." What do others think? -- Jmabel | Talk 03:25, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)

regarding the issue of franchise, please consult the policy on insinuation. It is POV speculation to say that the expanding franchise explains the changes in rhetoric (and consequent policy). I think you have a much stronger basis to complain that a blurred the enlightenment into more coherence than is supported: taking from the line of reasoning in Roads to Modernity, if you contrast the French and the British, you'll see that the differences foretell the emergence of the illiberal left. But if you don't accept that, then all the better for the changes I made. --Pearlg 07:33, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

And again "Eventually the Left evolved into Jacobinism and then into the precursors of socialism and communism and began arguing that economic inequality was inequity and in favor of granting the state plenary power and against classical liberalism." It isn't as if a large number of individuals "evolved" along that particular path. It's that politics arose that were seen as being "farther left" than those that had preceded them. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:16, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Jmabel here - I think Pearlg's edits obfuscate far more than it clears up. As I noted before, I didn't find the previous version of the article to be completely convincing, and wanted to make some changes. But a kind of light marxisant discussion is certainly superior to a crude libertarianish reading. As to the expanding franchise - this is not "POV speculation." It is certainly true that elitist liberalism took a punishing whenever the franchise expanded, and that ideas further to the left, hitherto obscured, became more important. The forces of reaction and bonapartism also became stronger in universal suffrage - but that doesn't change the fact that universal suffrage pretty universally exposed elitist liberalism (and, really, classical radicalism, too) as without any real popular basis, and laid the groundwork for the appearance of a much more, well, leftist left. Now, of course socialist ideas were already around before universal suffrage. But it was suffrage's expansion that made them into mass movements - as, for instance, the rise of the Democ-Socs in the Second Republic. john k 06:20, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Let me add - as I find Pearlg's edits largely obfuscatory, I'm going to revert. john k 06:24, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, but on the point of expanding franchise you are dead wrong. Please see Correlation implies causation (logical fallacy). I stand very firmly behind the principle that the article may not say or insinuate a causal relationship here. Moreover, you should well know that defining left-right at any point of history as being based on totalitarianism is merely to repeat marxist propoganda. This article can only stand as NPOV by discarding the idea that left-right means anything per se and merely giving a history of different left-right systems properly credited to who used them and when they were in use--while adequately disclaiming against the political purposes for which such distinctions were made. --Pearlg 20:40, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I strongly agree that the article should be largely historical, and discuss how the term has been used - as you can see below, the ahistorical material irritates me deeply. I'm not sure what you mean about totalitarianism. As to allegations of post hoc fallacy, your use of it would seem to imply never imputing any kind of causation to anything ever. It is a fact that liberal movements had a very limited popular base, and that the advent of universal suffrage created vast terrains that were seen at the time as being politically to the left of liberalism. john k 21:55, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 ::cough:: If you restrict yourself to France and those associated countries of europe enspired by the French Revolution then I agree liberalism has had a small political base. England, though, is a quite different matter--as is United States. I for one see a long tradition of liberalism tracing even as far back as the welsh wars. Sure, it wasn't a force to overthrow the monarchy, but it was definitely in support of liberalism. In a large sense liberalism is a conservative tradition in the british isles. But I digress... I do not mean to suggest one may never draw conclusions. I do mean to suggest that on this issue, the subject is far too political to safely draw conclusions from correlations and maintain a consensus that the result is NPOV. Thus my comment in the commit logs "there are no quasi-objective observers to opine on the issue" --Pearlg 05:19, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Fair enough on my continental bias. But the continent is where the terms "left" and "right" appeared. (As to England - well, there wasn't universal suffrage in England until 1918). Perhaps we should be more clear on the continental origins of the term. john k 06:54, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well, I don't know that fact one way or the other... so let me believe that date is right. The situation is too uncontrolled then because you're only a few years past 1905 and 1917, socialist leftism was sweeping the continent by then. On the otherhand, you also have fascism gaining ground then. So perhaps there is a case that "the people" are neither left nor right but tend to be illiberal. In general I'd like to see two distinctions:

• that economic-parity-leftism rose concurrently with expanding of franchise but not that this was "given" or an "obvious" consequence. Indeed it is almost circular because leftists had such a hand in expanding franchise but this says nothing per se about the interests, attitudes, etc of the working class. e.g., it could be explained merely on the limited basis that people desire suffrage. it *may* alternatively or also be because "the workers" believed in leftism or that leftism was in their favor or that prior order was against them. But this is speculation... and about aggregates--lumps of people if you will. I can live with it if it gets properly qualified.
• that economic-parity-leftists believe they serve the interests of workers and garner support from the electorate on that assumption but not that their policies and positions are necessarily in the interests of workers though they *may* be.

fair compromise? --Pearlg 08:52, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

John and I seem to be in total agreement on this matter. And anyone who has watched our respective work over time should know that is by no means a given. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:09, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

The "Meaning of the terms" section is awful

This section is generally awful. Perhaps my status as a historian is hitting me here, but these definitions are completely ahistorical. In particular, almost all of these definitions identify the right with classical liberalism. This is deeply, deeply problematic - through 1945, at least, the right was not associated with classical liberalism at all. The right was associated with authoritarianism and (in many countries, at least) protectionism. It was associated with monarchism, with fascism, with all kinds of horribly illiberal ideas. Up until 1945, even classical liberalism was very firmly an ideology of the center - it opposed the authoritarianism and traditionalism of the right just as much as it opposed the economic redistributionism of the left. If the left has to bear the assorted ideas of various anarchists, communists, and socialists, then the right should certainly not be identified as though it is synonymous with laissez faire. It is not, and was not. While laissez-faire liberalism is certainly a hallmark of the modern right in the developed world, this is a very recent phenomenon. It should be added that even since 1945 there has been a strong tendency of what has been, in many parts of Europe, the strongest faction within the center-right, Christian Democracy, against laissez-faire, and towards a much more paternalistic view of the role of government in society.

More briefly: the "meaning of the terms" section is total crap. john k 06:35, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Let me add - I notice that, in addition to the points which identify conservatism with classical liberalism, there is a rendition of a kind of Marxisant less privileged/more privileged distinction, as well as a number of very vague cultural/philosophical distinctions. The former should definitely be on the list. The latter seem to me to be so incredibly vague as to be nearly useless. Nature vs. nurture? Culture vs. Law? Loving Change vs. not loving change? At the very least, these ideas need some elaboration. At any rate, the whole set seems to take as given the idea that the right is for "liberty," "fair processes," "individual rights," and "smaller government," in a completely unproblematic way, except to point out a few exceptions. If we are going to have this section, it must be pointed out that large (if not dominant) elements of the right, until quite recently, was not in favor of any of these things. The basic problem, as I can see, is that we have one "leftist" materialist definition, and then a bunch of different definitions from classical liberals and libertarians, or else from conservatives who've read Burke. The materialist definition is overly crude, but is at least historical. The others are just attempts to reify things which are always changing and context-dependent. john k 06:45, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This article needs to articulate that while Left-Right enjoy wide popular uaage in acamedia & media, it is nonetheless only a theory, an ideological construct, that often ascribes views to one side of the "spectrum" or other that do not exist. Numerous examples abound.Nobs01 17:31, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sigh...of course it is a construct. That should be obvious from the article. john k 17:41, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Another point of stupidity: Also, there have been many governments opposed to both liberty and equality, but which are nevertheless characterized as "left-wing" or "right-wing". This seems to suggest that this is common on both left and right. While it is true that, in practice, there have been both left- and right-wing regimes that "opposed both liberty and equality," authoritarian left wing governments normally have at least some claim to be advancing equality, and practically all say that they are advancing liberty. For instance, Stalin's Soviet Union certainly did a great deal towards advancing a certain kind of equality (although, certainly, it was a rather crude equality, and a very imperfect one); and while it had very little liberty, it claimed to be in favor of liberty. This is not the case with most right-wing authoritarian regimes, which, until quite recently, were often explicitly and ideologically opposed to both liberty and equality. Treating the fact that some left-wing regimes have, in practice, not done much for liberty and equality, and often been quite horrible on the liberty front especially, and the fact that many right wing regimes and ideologies have explicitly reject both liberty and equality, as though they are equivalent is ridiculous. john k 17:41, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This article does not articulate it as being only a theory. This theory, at the junior high school level, does not teach observations based historical experience, rather it assigns views to one side of the "spectrum" or the other. Put into use then, practicianers of this theory very often ascribe views to persons who do not hold them. And they cannot explain the contradictions that arise. Too often their prejudiced, not by issues of fact & substance, by how a person comes down on the "left-right" scale. Nobs01 18:01, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It is not a "theory." To call it a theory doesn't make any sense - it makes no predictions about the world which can be tested. It is a model, or a construct of political ideology. It is a very influential model, it may be said, and one which influences the perception of politics throughout the developed world, at least, and perhaps beyond that. This article is not terribly good, and the introduction could use some work, but referring to it as a "theory" doesn't help any, since it doesn't make sense. The fact that school children (or whoever) interpret things wrong is neither here nor there. john k 18:13, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

1,790,000 Google hits for political+spectrum+theory Nobs01 20:58, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

That is the most useless google search of all time. Google hits for month+theory - 4,420,000. Shall I change our month article to indicate that months are only a theory, with google as my source? john k 21:57, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

A more refined google search (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&biw=1024&q=%22political+spectrum%22%2Btheory&btnG=Search) shows only 56,000 matches that have both "political spectrum" and "theory" in them. Of these, the first page, which should show the closest matches, fails to reveal any that refer to the political spectrum itself as a "theory." john k 22:00, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

the only noticeable hit for "political spectrum theory" is some right wing blog that doesn't like communism, and wants to make fascism a left-wing ideology. john k 22:02, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I've been working on my treatise "Fallacy of the Left/Right Spectrum Theory" now for a number of years and am reserving that for copyright commercial publication, so I can't use the best best material here. It is, nonetheless, no different than evolution or creationism, it is only a theory, and a greatly flawed one at that, that is taught as factual crap in American public schools. Nobs01 18:18, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

No, it is not a theory, because it does not attempt to explain how the world works. It is a model. Evolution and Creationism purport to explain the diversity of life on earth (or whatever). The idea of the left/right spectrum doesn't explain anything - it is a tool to describe. Nobody believes that the left/right spectrum is a "real" thing - it is a construct, a category for description. It is no more a theory than, say, months are. Like the left wing and the right wing, months have no real existence - they don't mean anything. But they are tools people use to divide up time. I suppose you could write a treatise exposing the fallacy of the month theory, but it would be pointless, because months aren't a theory - they are constructions. Similarly, the left-right spectrum is a construct used to describe the range of political ideology. Nobody believes it has any "real" existence, or that it can independently explain anything. john k 18:23, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

In dealing with proponents of the spectrum theory over decades I've witnessed thousands of times people use reasoning such as this (to use an illustration): "You beleive gun rights? You must be anti-abortion too." That goes far, far beyond a "model" to facilitate, analyze, or interpret understanding in the political arena. Contortions have been all over the map with this "model" or "theory". Witness: the God question. At one time atheism & godlessness were on the left, then a problem arose, National Socialism & Hitler. And Islam, as only one example, blows the whole theory out of the water. Or separation of church and state issues, especially if we wish to analyze the atheist, American Constitutional, British, Russian, Saudi Arabian, and Nazi positions on a "left-right" model. And I'm only bringing in some of the more obvious questions were this construct, as taught to school children, does not hold up. Nevertherless, schoolchildren get the message, "left" "good", "right" "bad", and one only needs to await how media organizations ascribe affiliations to make judgements. Then when discussing aging leftist octogenarians clinging to power in the Politburo in the 1980s, for example, in that leftist Utopia of the Soviet Union, if they are referred to as Kremlin conservatives, the message is clear, they are reactionary badguys. It's just all pure crap.Nobs01 19:20, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The fact that people are stupid and misuse a model (as they are want to do) does not make that model a theory. At any rate, of course there have been contortions - I am not advocating that a left-right political spectrum identifies anything real, except to the extent that political movements see themselves as being on this spectrum. Which, it is very clear, many do. Beyond this, of course the theory doesn't fit all political spectrums all the time. I don't think we should say it does. I'm not sure we should say it ever fits. But we should not call it a "theory" because that doesn't make any sense. Are you suggesting that people are applying a "theory" by suggesting that pro-2nd amendment types are anti-abortion? This is just a foolish assumption, and has nothing to do with the idea of a left-right spectrum at all. john k 21:51, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Here's another problem: one can hold certain views like being in favor of tax-cuts; that does not mandate that they are required to hold any view whatsover on abortion, homsexuality etc. Believing in God does not require that one must have a position, pro or con, about (1) abortion, (2) abortion only in the cases of rape or incest (3) abortion only in the case of rape or incest & to save the life of the mother etc; nonetheless, the "Left/Right Political Spectrum Theory", inspite of attestations that its merely a model to facilitate observations in the real world, actively seeks to pigeon-hole views without examining the context. That is the record of this theory as it has been taught in public schools, and public higher education institutions.Nobs01 22:05, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Again, the fact that a model is misused does not make that model a theory. It can be a stupid model that doesn't work very well. But it's still not a theory. john k 22:10, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Nobs: (1) Neither gun control nor abortion are particularly left-right matters. It is true that at this moment in the U.S. both are stances more popular on the left than on the right, but only in a historically and geographically narrow view could anyone imagine these are essential to the left-right construct. (2) Toleration of homosexuality is, arguably a culturally left position (and has been associated with at least some left politics almost as long as the term "left" has existed), but cultural leftism and economic leftism -- especially since the latter has come to mean socialism and communism rather than classical liberalism -- don't necessarily go hand in hand. Many communist parties have actually been rather culturally conservative/repressive. Another way to look at this is that in terms of cultural leftism, there isn't a lot of new turf mapped out to the left of the Gironde or the Montagne, but in terms of economic leftism, there is.

John: I agree with you that many of these definitions border on silly, but when they are put forward by Norberto Bobbio, Eric Hoffer, or even merely Mark Latham, I don't feel we can easily say they don't merit mention in an encyclopedia. And I don't see how we can easily come up with a taxonomy dividing up the better definitions from the worse ones without falling into "original research". -- Jmabel | Talk 05:33, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

Jmabel:You have reiterated exactly my point; Left-Right rhetoric is not independent model based on observation of the political scene. It is an ideological construct by the group that calls itself "left" to perpetuate their views to the less politically sophisticated, i.e. youth. Nobs01 05:38, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I suppose you're entitled to this (rather silly) view, but you're not entitled to try to enforce it as fact onto wikipedia articles. The idea that the political spectrum is a notion of the "left" is completely wrong, though - at least through World War II, there were many people who were perfectly willing to describe themselves as being on the old school right. It was only when the revelation of the crimes of Nazism (and the acquiescence of old school conservatives and so forth in them) became clear that this kind of right died out. And in the United States today, the dominant elements of the Republican Party are perfectly willing to use the idea of the left-right spectrum. If anything, the Democrats in the United States are much more uncomfortable with the "left" label than the Republicans are with the "right" label. john k 06:59, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Jmabel: it's not so much a problem of mentioning these various views as it is of contextualizing them. In particular, it needs to be made clear that most of these definitions are defining the right in terms of a right-liberal/center-right conception. My biggest problem with these definitions is that the definitions of the left are vague enough to encompass everything from communism to reform liberalism, while the definitions of the right encompass only classical liberalism, so that what would have been considered up to 1945 the "real right" (which still exists in marginal ways throughout Europe) is explicitly excluded from nearly every definition of the right given here. Some sort of categorization and conceptualization of these definitions is clearly required. Obviously we can't say that some definitions are bad and others are not. But we can certainly say that some of the definitions are based on a very limited conception of what the right entails that is not really historically valid for describing right wing movements outside the English-speaking world prior to the Second World War. john k 07:08, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

absolute levelling of wealth

This clearly needs revision. There is absolutley no attempt to explain if this means (a) redistribution of property (which may have certain consequences on the future produciton of wealth), or (b) redistribion of income, i.e. the current produciton of "wealth". Essentially, when you use (or abuse) the term "wealth", are you speaking of assets or income. Nobs01 21:16, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Wealth would mean property, I think. A "wealth tax" would be a tax on property, not a tax on income. john k 21:51, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

So a "levelling of wealth", based not on the past 200 years, but on several milleniums experience levels wealth to zero. It is "killing the goose that laid the golden egg". Hence, it is not "levelling wealth" at all, it is "destroying the means of producing wealth".

Sigh. We are writing an encyclopedia, not engaging in polemic. At least, that's what I'm trying to do. john k 22:10, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Damn, John, we keep agreeing. Nobs: It is a simple matter of historical truth to say that the "mass-based left stood… in its more extreme forms, for an absolute levelling of wealth…" Do I think this would have been a workable policy? No. But that's not the point. The point is that it is an accurate description of a view expressed by people with a certain politics.

I feel that most of the edits of the last week or two are damaging the article, making it less of a scholarly description of what the terms mean or have meant, in short, less of an encyclopedia article. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:43, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

communism advocating the interests of wage earners

This is another problemaic reference which has not been edited or deleted yet but placed here for comment. Communism, as instituted in the Soviet experience, did nbot "advocate the interest of wage earners" seeing it outlawed "capitalistic exploitation of labor" by disallowing one human being from employing another, i.e. exploiting their labor. No "wage earners" existed in the Soviet Union and no "wages" were paid. Workers were required to fulfill a "work norm" for which they were compensatede with rationing coupons and heroic titles like "Hero Worker". This needs revisionNobs01 03:49, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• I would agree that it is not strictly accurate to say that Communism advocated the interests of wage earners, but it would be accurate to say that Communism advocated the interests of the classes that historically relied on earning a wage. Whether, in practice, Communist regimes have ruled in those interests is another matter. Many have, in some degree (for example, Castro's Cuba, whatever else one thinks of it, has certainly brought unprecedented opportunities to Cuba's poor), others have not (as far as I can tell, North Korea is almost indistinguishible from an absolute monarchy, and its effective politics closer to those of Marie Antoinette than Karl Marx). -- Jmabel | Talk 05:50, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)
  • Soviet workers were not generally recompensed with ration coupons which acted as script, but were generally paid in roubles and kopeks. Ration coupons were issued in times of war (as they were in the West generally), and for a short period in 1918-1921 (see: War Communism). Stakhanovite titles usually included hefty cash or kind payments. Most qualified historians freely admit that wage labour was not abolished in the Soviet Union. Fifelfoo 06:11, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Egregious recent edits

Former text: "Although Adolf Hitler in Germany and Winston Churchill in the United Kingdom were both characterized in their own countries as right-wing, there was obviously a tremendous difference between the two leaders' policies, and even their opposition to socialism was expressed in radically different ways." Rewritten as "… and even their understanding of socialism was expressed in radically different ways." This is such a change of meaning as to amount to removal of the original (in my view, entirely valid) statement.

I agree, the original content made a useful point. --Pearlg 09:11, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Recently added: "The Left-Right theory does not explain how international coalitions come about. For example, the Atlantic Charter which gave birth to NATO, was a statement of common objectives inaugurated by the progressive Franklin Roosevelt and monarchist Tory, Winston Churchill. Nor the common objectives pursued by George H. W. Bush and Shimon Peres of the Isreali Labor Party. Nor the alliance of George W. Bush and Tony Blair, to name only a few from a multitude of examples."

1. What the heck is "the Left-Right theory"? This is like saying (in U.S. terms) "the Democrat-Republican theory" or (in UK terms) "the Labour-Conservative theory".
2. "…does not explain how international coalitions come about." Nor does it predict the price of tea, nor who will win the World Cup. So? Did anyone say it did? International coalitions generally come about through coinicidence of interests, not through anything about overtly held views. This is not news.
3. … and by the way, it's spelled "Israeli".

I agree it is not news. He only seems to be saying that people labeled left and people labeled right by their societies might have common interests and work together. It is definitely sort of "doh" but maybe its a point that deserves mention if only to save a few students from going off the deep-end into fanaticism. Obviously cut the business about "Left-Right theory". "Using a purely left-right dichotomy fails to adequately describe the intricacies of political positions and parties. e.g.... Please see that other article on multi-axis classification" --Pearlg 09:11, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Recently added: "even if the terms aren't as globally meaningful as they used to be, they remain a convenient tool for indoctination of young minds into Leftist thinking without havig to examine the real issues." Besides the illiterate spelling, this is so POV it's had to express. Can anyone sincerely believe that adding remarks like this is how we build an encyclopedia?

yep. I agree--despite my own personal convictions that "leftism" highjacked and derailed liberalism and in present times people are tricked into believing that the only choices are essentially between social democracy/leftism and totalarianism (from the right)--assuming, that is, that that is actually a choice. e.g., the recent marijuana ruling by the US supreme court as demonstration that liberalism is in fact a third way distinct from social democracy. --Pearlg 09:11, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm not editing the article at this time. I've worked hard several times in the past to fix this article; it's someone else's turn. I hope someone will come to this who shows more talent for—and interest in—writing an encyclopedia article than has recently been on display here. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:04, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

Alright, this time I'll really try to overhaul the damned thing...let me just get some rest... john k 07:00, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I was working a reorganization when these edits started happening. I stopped because I didn't have the time to check what I should be back-porting. What I noticed was that the article was very reptitive. I took it and made a historical section: gave the origin, then usage shortly after the french revolution, then around 1850, then around the turn of the century, the great war, post world-war II, post 1980. then a section on the modern quotes explaining how the terms might or should be used today. In an overall sense, I remember the article being much better a couple of months ago if still somewhat marxist in tone and style. --Pearlg 09:11, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)