Talk:Joseph McCarthy
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Discussion
I.F. Stone was a much harsher critic of McCarthy than Murrow yet he is not mentioned in here. Here is one example.
The most subversive force in America today is Joe McCarthy. No one is so effectively importing alien conceptions into American government. No one is doing so much to damage the country's prestige abroad and its power to act effectively at home. [1] (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAstoneIF.htm)
The Wikipedia article on I.F. Stone has the following:
Although considered by many a standard for independent investigative journalism, much evidence points to Stone's involvement with the KGB in espionage and disinformation activities. It appears that Stone received payments from the KGB from 1944 to 1968, and Stone was known as agent BLIN in Venona cables [1] (http://www.cia.gov/csi/books/venona/part2.htm). Oleg Kalugin, a former major general in the KGB who had worked as a press officer at the Soviet embassy in Washington, has also verified these claims.
I believe this is a very relevant addition that should be added into the Venona portion. --Zimbabwe Lovegun
OK, question: How was Senator McCarthy participating in the House Un-American Activities Committee? I had been under the impression the activities of the two were at least nominally separate. --Fubar Obfusco
- You're right. He wasn't (according to the noted external link). --Reboot
- The force of McCarthy's personality was so great that he virtually took over the anti-Communist movement in the United States, ultimately discrediting even legitimate concerns about Communist influence in various government bodies and other organizations.
- This sentence assumes that it is "legitimate" to have concerns about Communist influence in government bodies and organizations. (Compare: ultimately descrediting even legitimate concerns about capitalist influence in various government bodies) Legitimate is a hard word to use well NPOV-ly.
- Depending on what "ultimately" means in this context, this is not entirely true. As late as the 60s and the 70s--indeed, as late as the documents run--the FBI was investigating many people for ties to communism and having many of them fired.
Something like ultimately discrediting many investigations into Communist influence in government bodies--even ones which he took no part in. would be more neutral and more accurate. DanKeshet
I don't agree:
- "Illegitimate investigations" -- pursuit of government employees for their political beliefs.
- "Legitimate investigations" -- pursuit of moles, covert agents of foreign powers acting secretly within the government, like Alger Hiss.
It was the illegitimate McCarthyist pursuit of all sorts of innocuous citizens that discredited the legitimate pursuit of spies like Hiss. Ortolan88
- That's your definition of legitimate; I didn't know until you said so. Some people thought it was "legitimate" to investigate civilians but "illegimate" to investigate soldiers. Given your clarification, then, I would prefer ultimately discrediting even investigations into agents of Communist countries acting within government bodies and other organizations. Is this what you meant in the first place?
- But beyond the definition of legitimate, I still doubt the veracity of the statement. This paper (http://www.umich.edu/~historyj/papers/winter2002/gottlieb3.html) says that McCarthy became a liability when he went after friends of other senators, but that the Cold War regime stayed very much in place. It seems highly illogical to me that the government would have difficulty continuing to pursue "legitimate" or "illegitimate" investigations of communists in government, then turn around and spend millions of dollars and 13 years investigating and harassing CPUSA under COINTELPRO. Admittedly, though, I haven't had the chance to study this period in American history very thoroughly. Do you have any starting points? Where did you get this statement from? Thanks, DanKeshet PS. Ortolan: Despite the fact we seem to disagree about many issues, I find it very pleasant working with you to fix up articles. :)
Thanks.
This article was short and punchy, but it was not rubbish. It is now long and boring, and still not rubbish, but I am not through contributing to it and I don't expect to hear any more about rubbish.Ortolan88 (signed properly more than a year later, so DanKeshet would know who was thanking him. Ortolan88 16:54, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC))
- It was short. It wasn't necessarily punchy, i'd prefer the term "inaccurate" (McCarthy was nowhere near taking over the anti-communist movement, for a start, except as that movement was seen by the media). It spent a paragraph talking in a vague and unhelpful way about McCarthyism, a topic much better cover in the...um...page on McCarthyism. A page on McCarthy should be about McCarthy, which is what it now is. Having said that I was probably crossing the line to call it 'rubbish', for which I apologise. "Boring" is a bad term to apply to an encyclopaedia article. Encyclopaedia articles aren't necessarily meant to be gripping, they're meant to be a useful source of information, which I believe this article now is, more so than it was before. --AW
Does anyone know what the copyright or rights involved in the government documents linked in "external links"? The prologue to the recently declassified documents is outstanding and gives a much more indepth history into McCarthy than we currently have. --Reboot
Quite a lot of content was removed in recent edits... didn't seem that it was that POV... wouldn't rephrasing be better? -- Wapcaplet
- The stuff removed was POV. I tried to rewrite it in a NPOV way. Some things there is dispute about, and can't be regarded as factual, and so were removed. If I removed anything factual, please reinstate it. However, please note that due to the emotional nature of McCarthys actions, it is hard to find honest reporting on him. Original transcripts of Senate hearings and the like are the only evidence I can really trust on this issue. There was also some stuff that more appropriately belongs in the article on McCarthyism. I will be editing that article shortly. Sorry if my edits seemed too bold. 209.53.16.55
- Good point. Now that I look closer at it, the stuff you removed was rather wishy-washy and wandering. Your version is definitely better. Keep up the good work :) -- Wapcaplet
- Anyone who contributes a link to something called "How the Marxists in America Destroyed Joe McCarthy" can hardly be considered neutral on the subject. -- Zoe
- Zoe, the fellow made substantial edits, and from what I can see he made real NPOV improvements. Removing someones entire work because you don't like one part of it seems a bit excessive. On any emotionally charged political issue or bit of history, there will be contrasting views. You may not like the link he provided, but it too fills in a part of the story readers of the Wikipedia need to be aware of. -- Moshe Nackmen
I'm going to revert this as Zoe did. I tried to work within the edits but as I looked this over thoroughly and it is full of subtle factual errors (for instance how did Roy Cohn launch the investigation against the Army after he resigned???). The edits seem to be an attempt to subtly vindicate McCarthy or make it seem like he was the victim of some press conspiracy. I'm reviewing the declassified government documents which are far more authorative and contain actual transcripts than the opinion papers used by this author as source material for his edits. -Reboot
- Roy Cohn didn't resign until the Army hearings turned into a major fiasco. Your declassified government documents tell important parts of the story, but not the whole story. Could we have less hand-waving and more facts? If you got this wrong, what else have you gotten wrong in the article, but are refusing to admit to yourself? -- Moshe Nackmen
You regularly attend synagogue -- that's why you link to virulently anti-Semitic articles? -- Toby 13:16 May 7, 2003 (UTC) [on ]
- My rabbi says, and I agree with him, that the only safety for my people is to be honest with each other, and with others. As soon as you start dismissing the truth, you stray from reality, and set yourself up for a hard fall. The article (http://reactor-core.org/secret/how-the-marxists-destroyed-joe-mccarthy.html), which I quickly glanced over, seemed factual and well researched. If you don't care about the truth, and objective fact, I suggest that you don't bother involving yourself with an Encyclopedia project. To mention the fact that Bugsy Seigel was a Jew is no more anti-Semitic than it is to say that Boss Tweed was Irish. The article on McCarthy and Roy Cohn falls into the same category. Please, get over yourself. You are giving me a lot of pain and heartache. I really worry for the future of my daughter in a world like this, where people are actively trying to alienate the Gentiles against me and my kin. Remember the pogroms! -- Moshe Nackmen
So your rabbi advised you to blow the lid on the international Jewish conspiracy, eh? And make no mistake, that's what you're claiming if you call the reactor-core article "factual". After all, there's a difference between stating that Roy Cohn was a Jew and stating that "the Jews" as a nebulous whole were behind McCarthy's downfall.
Perhaps you didn't read the article carefully enough; here are some choice quotations:
- "International Communism and international finance -- the twin thrusts of Jewish power -- were both ill-served by the attention McCarthy drew to the issues of loyalty and subversion."
- "If the Senator had taken account of Jewish traits -- especially their bent for deception, which goes far beyond anything encountered in the Gentile world -- then perhaps he would have braved the charges of "anti-Semitism" rather than tolerate Jews on his staff."
- "[...] Sokolsky was well-placed to accomplish much for the Jewish obsession with the New World Order [...]."
You can find more by searching for the string "Jew". Despite the article's title, it's not at all about how "Marxists" destroyed McCarthy; it lays the blame squarely on "the Jews".
As for the alleged tendency to characterise criticism of individual Jews (like Cohn) as anti-Semitism, let me note that I believe that Ariel Sharon deserves to be brought before The Hague on charges of war crimes (both for 1982 and for 2000+). There are some that would call that belief inherently anti-Semitic, but of course it is not. On the other hand, blaming a nebulous international Jewry for political events through control of "international Communism and international finance" is indeed anti-Semitic.
I don't suppose that I'll have much to say if you start objecting to the above -- there's that bit about feeding the trolls. The nature of the link is now laid bare for any future editors, so they won't be tempted to put it back in to provide balance.
-- Toby 04:35 May 8, 2003 (UTC)
Instead of reverting and re-reverting, could somebody please add a list of authoritative published books or articles about McCarthy? Surely the man had at least one biographer competent enough to have done real research as to whether, for instance, he was a "social drinker" or a "heavy drinker". Those references are how I and others can determine whether the claims made in this article are true, or have been made up by somebody sneaking in a POV. Stan 18:29 May 7, 2003 (UTC)
From http://www.latimes.com/la-na-mccarthy6may06,1,2134751.story (you need to register to read their articles, but if you do, you'll see that this is what they say): McCarthy was censured by his colleagues in 1954 for conduct unbecoming a senator and his public stature quickly faded. A heavy drinker, he died at age 48 in 1957.. I'm putting back the bit about his drinking. -- Zoe
- I poked around the web in an idle moment, and there seems to be general agreement about the heavy drinking. But interestingly, there also seems to be 4-5 different immediate causes of death cited, although none of them quote a well-researched biography by name, so I don't know which one to believe. Stan 02:38 May 8, 2003 (UTC)
Although there seems to be no universally accepted convention for doing so, I wish to cite my edits from yesterday as having used the Intro to the declassified documents linked in external links section (link #1). My second set of edits, this morning, sourced the NPR broadcast (link #2).
I'd like to see us fill out more about McCarthy's gang of reporters (who presumably hung around because he was such a fun guy to drink with) and the role of the media in McCarthism. I'd also like to fill out more about Roy Cohn and the rumored homosexuality of McCarthy (which was false) and Cohn (which was true) being thought to have perhaps brought his attack on homosexuals. Secondly, I'd like to show some more depth on some of the folks who were ruined by McCarthy and the House Committee on Un-American Activities. To pull this off I need to find a cleaner seperation between McCarthy and I suppose the Era of McCarthism as well as the subtopics.
I'd like to research Roy Cohn a little more closely. According to yesterday's NPR broadcast: as a Jew he decided to be as some sort of American avenger and ironically targeted Jews a little more heavily than others. McCarthy never seemed to have racial or anti-semitic motives in his targeting/attacks. The rumors of both McCarthy and Cohn's homosexuality actually might have not only hastened McCarty's marriage but brought on McCarthy's crusade against homosexuals and Sexual perverts. Cohn later proved to be a homosexual. I'd like to find out if he actually did play a part in the short lived crusade against homosexuals and "other sexual perverts". It would make him indeed an interesting character having attacked two minorities of which he was a member!
Any assistance is indeed appreciated on any of these points.
While I'd like to cover these things, I'd like to do it in a way that does not detract from the impact of the article and preserves a balanced and factual account. I realize the article is somewhat controversial even today (though I did not know that in advance) due to the ideological views of some of the participants; however, I appreciate the efforts of everyone to use reference material and facts rather than their mere opinion or belief system. I have full confidence in our abillity to create a balanced factual presentation on McCarthy, McCarthism and the other characters in this interesting history without watering down force and subject of the article. Controversy can be avoided by citing it here and scruitinzing non-credible sources.
- Reboot May 8 09:38AM (EDT)
---
Please do not remove the NPR link. I used it as source material and secondly it was rather authorative as several authors and experts were interviewed on the subject of McCarthy. There was some great information which adds balance.
- Reboot May 19 00:32 (EDT)
A lot of this Roy Cohn material needs to be split out into its own article. -- Zoe
Sounds like a good idea, care to give it a go? They should still be linked. -- Reboot ---
- His hunt was made easier in the backdrop of the Great Depression where many desperate Americans had joined "labor fronts" and other organizations which later became associated with communism. Mr. Cohn, having reached his maturity after the depression reportedly could not sympathise with this and pursued such individuals with vigor. In his "memoirs" he reported that a retired university professor had once told him "that had I been born twelve or fifteen years earlier my word-view and therefore my character would have been very different."
This belongs in an article on Cohn. --Len
---
I think we need more detail on the tactics McCarthy used and some statistics between those he indicted and those who actually were communists. --Reboot
Agreed, but it isn't trivial to find the data. Most McCarthy mentions on the web are broad and hysterical--for example, tying him to the HUAC, blaming him for the Hollywood blacklisting that took place before he even came onto the scene, etc. A simple list, of the people he actually accused, should be a matter of public record, but isn't yielding to spare-time searches. --Len
I'm curious about the external links. They are all regarding how unfairly treated McCarthy apparently was, and how he was a great guy regardless. It seems a bit one-sided to me. -- goatasaur 15:22 6 Jul 2003 (UTC)
- Yes, the issue of the links is rapidly turning into an edit war, but it's obvious we shouldn't be linking only to such one-sided articles. I removed them (again). Evercat 14:07 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)
- To anon: Feel free to explain how linking only to a whole bunch of far-right sites about how wonderful McCarthy was can possibly be NPOV. I await your answer, here. Evercat 19:52 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)
You are saying that facts are irrelevant, if they are presented by the "wrong" people? The NPOV clearly says that we need to be neutral and balanced. Excluding a viewpoint isn't allowed just because a few people don't like it; but it is much worse to discard actual facts because they don't agree with your political views. This isn't the place to push communist propaganda. I am very concerned by what seems like a lack of regard for the truth. I am going to put the links back until you point out factual errors in them, instead of complaining that the articles were written by people with a different political ideology than you. Innocent until proven guilty! --195.68.95.209
- NPOV means presenting both sides of the debate, not just yours. There could possibly be a place for one or two of your links, but not without some balance. It should be obvious that linking only to sites on one side of the debate is not NPOV. Evercat 20:10 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)
There is no debate here, just trying to get the facts heard. There are many inaccuracies in the article, which keep being reverted. The least you can do is allow the articles to be linked, since they do deal strictly with the facts of the case. Wikipedia biographies should be designed as factual articles, not as smear pieces promoting the viewpoint of the far left. Remember, balance and neutrality. Far-left apologetics is not neutrality! The idea of balance you are promoting seems to be "I want to tell people you are an axe-murderer, and you want to present facts that would lead people to believe this wasn't true. Let's find a balanced compromised; just let me say you beat up your taxi driver while you stay silent." That attitude is clearly contrary to the intent of the NPOV. --195.68.95.209
- I invite you to read NPOV dispute, from which I quote:
- Neutrality is all about presenting competing versions of what the facts are. It doesn't matter at all how convinced we are that our facts are the facts. If a significant number of other interested parties really does disagree with us, no matter how wrong we think they are, the neutrality policy dictates that the discussion be recast as a fair presentation of the dispute between the parties.
- Evercat 20:28 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Moved from User talk:Moses ben Nachman:
I think [the links] should be there, but properly categorized, and described (see Wikipedia:Describe external links). --Eloquence 00:27 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)
- That's a very good idea. I'll do that. Evercat 11:08 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I write this article with no right or left point of view. I've completely deleted all of the socialist ranting as well as the right-wing ranting. I understand that there are those who wish to demonize him further than the article does, and I understand that there are those who want to make him out to be some kind of hero. I want to tell about WHO he was, WHAT he did, WHEN he was. I don't want this to be some watered down wish wash but at the same time I don't want this to be POV. Note that the only links that I've left are the ones I used to write pieces of the article. I invite you to pick NPOV sources and add NPOV information. Don't draw pre-suppositions. Thus far I see "here are 10 opinion essays telling us what a great guy McCarthy was" that have NOTHING to do with the content of the article. Add content, add unbiased fair content or go focus on an issue you have less of an opinion on. For instance, I don't contribute to anything more than *stub* articles ("this is a") about anything I know I cannot write an unbiased article on although I might be regarded as an "expert" on those topics. Thus far I've deleted (and will continue to) any NON-factual articles linked from here. Factual = no references, just proof or based strongly on logical fallacies or one-sided views. http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ -- I will continue to delete any links to socialist, conservative or whatever sources. I will continue to preserve unbiased or balanced articles and those that were used to write this (which should fit that criteria)
-- Reboot
- Thank you, that's exactly what I did several times, but after someone continued to revert them, I decided to leave them until someone else agreed with me. :-) Evercat 11:31 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)
If a neutral article is linked that isn't a mere editorial or opinion essay but rather from a reliable source, I'll leave it in. However, I would prefer to see that it is source for article content not just "Here are all my favorite conservative weeklys" save that for your homepage... Ad hominem attacks on me or calling the article communist propeganda is just silly. I looked through the articles, and matched them up to the logical fallacies page, but generally it turns to "prove a negative" which of course is pretty difficult. Rather than resorting to a Denile of Service attack on this article and people trying to write an NPOV article, why not try and do some actual research. You have the declassfied senate hearings. You should be able to find period news paper pieces. Maybe you can find enough information to prove that McCarthy was a saint that saved the country from communism. Thus far there aren't facts that support this view, just opinion essays. These do not constitute information worthy of an encyclopedia. Flip open Britannica and turn to the bibliography and aside from the "ultra-conservative" or "American Communist Party" see if "conservative weekly" opinion essays or editorials of "the new socialist" periodicals are linked as reliable sources of information. If they are, my bad, prove it, I'll remove my objection and we can call up ol' Rush Limbaugh and see what he thinks of McCarthy and rewrite the article as dittoheads.
--Reboot
Your argument is illogical and extreme. I regard McCarthy as a hideous intimidating demogogue but I find the idea that you claim the right to censor links supportive of him frankly McCarthyite. NPOV does not mean neutral links, it means neutral text, with links provided to allow a full understanding of the views held. Wiki articles regularly put links on to various sides of the argument, even the nutty sides of a one sided argument; I have done so on numerous occasions even where I regard the link's contents as utter garbage. (A Seventh-day Adventist nutty link to claims about how the pope wears a tiara with words that link to 666 on it, for example. No tiaras containing the words actually exist. The whole thing is a figment of a SdA anti-catholic paranoia. I also put on a link to a Roman Catholic rebuttal and a link to where both sides debated the issue.) The reader has a right to know of such links so they can read them and make up their own mind on it, not have you have it up for them.
I have reverted to reinsert the links. I have also added:
- a long list of books written about McCarthy and McCarthyism, written from the 1950s to the present day;
- additional neutral links;
- a list of critics of McCarthy links to balance the defenders list there.
If you really wanted to NPOV the links rather than censor them, that is what you should have done, provided a balance not censored those links you don't like.
I have also rewritten the opening paragraph which was severely flawed and inaccurate in its definition of McCarthyism. FearÉIREANN 07:29 20 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Re 217's question. I didn't deliberately. I got stuck in an edit conflict and sometimes stuff can be edited and re-edited by people simultaneously and so changes may get lost when finally a save works. If any changes were lost I will try to retrieve them. I wasn't working on the text of the article, merely its opening paragraph and bottom links. FearÉIREANN 07:41 20 Jul 2003 (UTC)
- Thanks JT, I think it's fine as long as there's balance in the links, rather than only having links to one side of the debate. Evercat 14:07 20 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I quickly skimmed the article but was unable to glean from it whether McCarthy was "on to something" or "full of beans". This is rather disappointing for such a lengthy encyclopedia article.
I really would like to be able to use the Wikipedia to help me figure out whether McCarthy was just persecuting people under the pretext of anti-communism, or what?
Were there, or were there not, spies passing US government secrets to the Soviets during the McCarthy era?
Did McCarthy do anything to expose and/or punish these spies, or not? --Uncle Ed 19:22, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC)
There were spies in the US Government. Read "Treason" by Ann Coulter
- There were spies, but I'd suggest a somewhat more reliable source than Ann Coulter, the real world's equivalent of a Slashdot troll. In any case, the article now includes some information on where McCarthy was right. --Delirium 06:34, Aug 31, 2003 (UTC)
I added a short bit at the end of the section on McCarthy's fall to note the early opposition of Margaret Chase Smith to his tactics. If anyone has any other notable examples of earlier opposition to McCarthy, it should be added. In the Senate itself, I know only of Smith and her six supporters. To anticipate a question, I felt it should be at the end of the section, rather than the beginning, because it was not the direct cause of McCarthy's downfall (that distinction goes to the Army-McCarthy hearings) but it is certainly worth noting.
--Xinoph 12:14, Apr 3, 2004 (UTC)
Has anyone considered that the CIA and FBI may have been well aware that there were spies but thought it better to monitor them rather than expose them?
Exile 13:50, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)
NPOV dispute - still?
The NPOV dispute tag on this article is more than a year old, and I don't see any recent arguments here. The dispute over external links appears to have been solved by providing a number of partisan links both for and against McCarthy, which are clearly labeled as such. To me, this is now a very thorough and balanced article and no longer needs the tag. If no one says otherwise in the next week or so, I'll remove it. ←Hob 06:04, 2004 Sep 3 (UTC)
Well, one thing that still looks questionable to me is this statement in the VENONA section: "regardless of the specific number, McCarthy consistently underestimated the extent of Soviet espionage". I'm not sure that is a logical conclusion, since it's comparing a total number of "at least 349 people in the United States" with McCarthy's various figures on communists in the government. But even if anyone wants to argue over the phrasing of that bit, I don't think the whole article needs the NPOV tag. ←Hob 06:04, 2004 Sep 3 (UTC)
Meaning what?
The article on McCarthy contains the following sentence:
- Upon his ascension, McCarthy essentially re-staffed his Senate Subcommittee on Investigations, often not dismissing the predecessor.
The predecessor of what, one may ask. Readers should not be forced to guess. I can't change it because I do not know what idea the original writer was trying to express. 金 (Kim) 06:28, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- That sentence confused me too. It seems to go straight from the Senate investigation in 1954 of the Army matter (McCarthy's downfall) to his "ascension" and restaffing. Could anyone take a stab at this? – Quadell (talk) (help)[[]] 01:25, Sep 21, 2004 (UTC)
- I reorganized some parts of this article, moving some bits to the Roy Cohn article, and moving other bits around. That questionable sentence got dropped. If anyone knows what it meant, feel free to add the info back in. – Quadell (talk) (help)[[]] 11:39, Sep 21, 2004 (UTC)
Broken link
- The US Senate censure motion against McCarthy
- Senate Motion 301 (1954) censuring McCarthy (http://ourdocuments.gov/content.php?page=document&doc=86)
"to a very large extent, history has vindicated the basic thrust of his anti-communist crusade,"???
This second paragraph:
"McCarthy has been much maligned by various groups, often falsely. However, to a very large extent, history has vindicated the basic thrust of his anti-communist crusade, even if some individual charges have been disproved. The VERONA decrypts have shown McCarthy's charges of widespread communist subversion within the United States Government were largely accurate."
Has history actually vindicated McCarthy? Maybe in Ann Coulter's world, but in general her book has been discredited...
The fact that "some" of the hundreds of people persecuted by McCarthy actually turned out to be communists does hardly seems to mean that what he did was, in fact, OK. and "correct."
Drug addiction?
I was under the impression that McCarthy was a drug addict -- that a pharmacy near the Senate had permission to fill morphine prescriptions for McCarthy
Harry Shapiro's book, "Waiting For The Man", mentions that McCarthy had a special exemption from the Federal Bureau of Narcotics to recieve cocaine and morphine without doctors' prescriptions. Harry Anslinger, then-head of the FBN, in his autobiography, mentions an important politician who is using those drugs. While McCarthy is never mentioned by name (he may still have been alive at the time). enough allusions and references are used to strongly suggest the politician in question is McCarthy.
- I heard he liked to wear womens underwear too
Owen Lattimore
- McCarthy also accused Johns Hopkins University professor Owen Lattimore of being the number one Soviet spy in the United States. It was later confirmed that Lattimore too was indeed a Soviet agent [2] (http://foia.fbi.gov/owenlatt/owenlatt1a.pdf).
I removed the allegation that Owen Lattimore was a Soviet spy. The external link to FBI documents released under the FOIA do not, in fact, demonstrate this claim. The Owen Lattimore page states merely that "speculation" regarding Lattimore's alleged treason continues to this day. Also, Lattimore is not mentioned on the Venona page, so the claim does not belong in the "Vindicated by Venona" section. Peter 05:51, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I removed the allegation again for the same reasons as above. I would add that the proper place to debate Lattimore's guilt or innocence is on the Owen Lattimore page. Peter 00:48, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I note the defenders of McCarthy are labeled "conservative," while the critics are not labeled "liberal." Is this deliberate? Is it fair?
Re: Overall impression of the article, I found much of it used opinion and semantically slanted wording. I even added some of my own to see if they would be cut out and other opinion left in. For example, the sentence containing "testifying to other Senators' fear of McCarthy's political attacks" attributes a cause to other senators' actions which is speculation." I added "possibly," though would have basically just cut out the speculation as to senators' motives. Unless those senators published their motives somewhere!
One paragraph lists many politicians, most of whom are essentially unknown except to political junkies, and ALL of them were disparaging toward McCarthy. There was no listing of politicians who supported McCarthy, though many existed, including John F. Kennedy, so I added this statement.
Finding unbiased info about McCarthy is difficult after years of demonizing by certain elements. A mythology has grown up which is much different from fact. Luckily, I grew up during those years and remember much that was going on. (68.231.243.157)
- Your edits, while sometimes factual, either rehash, repeat or completely cover a fact in your POV. Because you were there doesn't mean you've got some monopoly on facts or the right to blatantly slant those facts.--TheGrza 02:06, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
Well, gee, not quite so. Is the John F. Kennedy statement praising McCarthy elsewhere covered in this piece? Are not all the derogatory statements left in and the praise left out? Is not supposition left in if it is unfavorable to McCarthy? Is not the information that, indeed, Truman and those in his administration trusted and stood up for their fellows who were Soviet agents left out of the Truman/McCarthy conflict? And I have not claimed monopoly of facts. I have suggested that some folks, perhaps you from your comments, are biased. I agree, by the way, tha tsome of my statements were supposition--but the point is, you delete my suppositions while leaving those in which reflect badly upon McCarthy. But those are suppositions nonetheless, or as you say, POV. But thanks anyway. It's good to see bias revealed.
--SailFree
Don't presume bias, especially when none has been exhibited. I don't deny your facts (I'd like a little backup, but I don't deny them). The problem isn't your facts, it's the incredibly biased way you presented them. Most of the comments in the article have been fought over, discussed, debated and settled upon. If you don't like any of them, start a conversation here. Wikipedia is based on the trust that those participating are trying to make Wikipedia (1) Awesome and (2) bias-free (in this case). Presuming anything else doesn't help with 1 or 2 and balancing bias with other bias (the old two wrongs issue) is a terrible way to improve an article.--TheGrza 23:43, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)
- I would suggest to "SailFree" that he or she create and use an account. This makes it easier to discuss who has changed what. I presume "SailFree" is the same person who made all the changes attributed to 68.231.243.157.
- The John Kennedy quote strikes me as a good addition to the page, although I'd like to see a reference. In fact, supportive quotes of prominent politicians would make a nice section. But, it should be done in such a way that the reader can decide for themselves whether this is an endorsement of Joseph McCarthy or an exposure of poor judgment among leading politicians. If McCarthy was really the godfather of one of JFK's daughters, this would also be worth including.
- Also, I don't see a good reason to refer to various parties as "liberal" or "conservative". There are people who can be labelled "conservative" who don't like McCarthy and there are people labelled "liberal" who did. JFK, for example, could be seen as a liberal and apparently supported McCarthy.
- I do feel the edits by 68.231.243.157 were overly bold and not carefully prepared. I support the decision to revert them, although I do feel there is some content that could be cleaned up and reasonably included in the article.
- I have a specific issue with the comments relating to VENONA, and with the current VENONA section in the article: VENONA does not reveal the name of a single agent of the Soviet Union. Code words were used and the names attached to those code words are speculation. It is factually inaccurate to state the McCarthy was vindicated in the specific with regard to any particular person he accused of espionage. However, VENONA does show that there was an active Soviet espionage effort in the United States in the 1950s. Some people seem to feel that this is a vindication of McCarthy and a quote by a prominent representative of this faction would be nice to include. Peter 02:12, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- As to Venona: McCarthy began with a half truth; McCarthy alleged there was a huge underground Soviet apparatus made up of government employees and the Truman administration was doing nothing about it. The half truth is there was indeed a huge underground Soviet apparatus operating within the government in Wartime; the other half truth is the Truman administration didn't know about the Venona_project#Significance, so it was distrustful of FBI reports cause Truman didn't know the material originated in the Signals Intelligence Service; Truman thought it was FBI hype coming from J. Edgar. So whose to blame? No one. Cause ultimate the decision of General Bradley to keep existence of the program secret was probably the right decision, however, this is the question that needs to be debated today. Those seeking to demonize someone, be it McCarthy appologists or McCarthy critics, will probably begin with the premise that "somebody" is at fault, and "somebody" has to be the bad guy, for allowing the brutal partisanship that existed on both sides of this question. To rehash the same old garbage without a proper understanding of the Venona's significance, is a dead end. Nobs01 03:39, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Secret apparatus
This is an interesting article from the notorious right wing rag, Time magazine (http://time-proxy.yaga.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,823119,00.html) of November 30 1953. Although McCarthy is not mentioned in the article, it gives a good sense of the atmosphere of the time. Please note neither Harry Dexter White nor Attorney General Herbert Brownell, Jr. are mention in the McCarthy article either. The American public was very much interested in this subject, and concerned about the underlying truth of the matter, that a Soviet Secret apparatus of more than 400 individuals existed in the United States government during wartime, and it appeared (we now know why) that the Truman administration was doing nothing about it. Nobs01 02:07, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Let me clarify two statements from above: (1) the "Soviet Secret apparatus: some would say should read "CPUSA Secret apparatus", however that is dealt with at Secret apparatus which explains the CPUSA secret appartus (made up of American citizens) worked hand in glove with Soviet intelligence. (2) The "400" individuals did not all work in the government; those names, known, identified & corroboarted can be found at Venona#List_of_Americans_in_Venona_Papers; that list may in fact be incomplete. That list does not include other decrypted code names yet to be identiified that worked in the government. That list does not include civilian employees of vital government War contrators, like Bell Aircraft, etc., or in Acedmic institutions doing vital scientific research for the government & War contractors. That list is far from complete regarding American citizens outside the government acting as go-betweens, or cut-outs, and couriers, etc. Hence, overall, more than 400 American citizens operated in the Secret apparatus on behalf of the Soviet Union. Nobs01 02:36, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I don't know what you meant to convey with your Time link. Was "notorious right-wing rag" supposed to be sarcasm? If you meant something like "even a moderate, non-partisan magazine like Time thought Truman was ignoring the subversive menace, so obviously it was a general consensus and there must have been something to it", that would be very misleading indeed. Under Henry Luce, Time was extremely partisan, as much so as Fox News is today; Luce thought Truman was soft on Communism at home and abroad, and missed no opportunity to beat that drum... which surely contributed to the "atmosphere of the time", rather than just reflecting it as you imply. You're just blowingAs for Brownell, if you think the McCarthy article should include something about Brownell then don't just complain about it - add it! ←Hob 18:42, 2005 Jun 19 (UTC)
- I think that misses the point. I will draft a proposed rewrite putting Joesph McCarthy in perspective of the Venona project. Oddly enough (sorry to disappoint partisans of the "left" & "right"), everybody is a fault, or nobody is fault, now that a clearer picture has been revealed (Brownell & J. Edgar really have nothng to do with this story; to understand it properly one must put aside their prejudices towards persons & personalites, of whatever stripe, and simply review the evidence). Nobs01 20:58, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Telegraph vs. Telegram
A telegraph is a machine used to send messages. These messages are called "telegrams". See Telegraphy or a good dictionary. Peter 00:34, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)