Talk:John Calvin

Jean Calvin was is real name. This should be mentionned. Is he know as John Calvin in english speaking countries ? Ericd 22:39 Sep 7, 2002 (UTC)

Yes, that's how he's known by English speakers. -- Zoe

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== Predestinarianism ==

Christian lay-people generally identify Calvinism first and foremost with predestinarianism. Predestinarianism, unlike predestination, is set up in contrast to human free will. The idea is that if people could do anything other than what God foreordained them to do it would violate the sovereignity of God. An unfortunate consequence is that, taken along with the rest of the Bible, this doctrine has God forcing people to sin, and creating some for heaven and others for hell. The contrasting view has people choosing freely for themselves whether or not to turn to God and whether or not to sin. This keeps God from being responsible for evil in the world, and whether or not they go to hell, but also opens the possibility that what God wants may not always be what happens.

Nevertheless, it is not entirely accurate to identify Calvinism with predestinarianism, as this was only a minor teaching of John Calvin. Some of his other teachings have become cornerstones of Protestant theology, and there exist non-Calvinist Protestants who would call Calvin a better selection for the title "father of Protestantism" than Martin Luther.

I removed this whole new section to talk about it, for a couple of reasons. It uses "predestinarianism" as though it were a special technical term, which it is not. The links to Calvinism and Predestination are more than sufficient, in my opinion, for dealing with this topic. Finally, it's not a very insightful or informative treatment of the topic. Of course, I am ready to be corrected. Mkmcconn

I have always heard "predestinarianism" used as the belief that humans do not have free will, and that everything is predetermined by the sovereign will of God. Predestination, on the other hand, could refer to my personal interprettation of Romans 8:29 ("For whom He foreknew, He also predestined..."), which is that God, before the foundation of the world, knew that the Elect would, of their own free will, choose Him, and at that time predestined them for certain blessings (the idea being that, as I have heard it used, predestinarianism is directly opposed to free will, whereas predestination and free will are not necessarily mutually contradictory, in some systems of thought). Webster's Revised Unabridged, however, gives "predestinarianism" as "The system or doctrine of the predestinarians" and "predestinarian" as "One who believes in or supports the doctrine of predestination", which is far more general than my use of it. Anyway, the only thing that I think is particularly important that isn't in the article already is that John Calvin is associated with predestination in much of Christianity, but this was, to him, only a minor teaching. kpearce

My understanding is that predestination was not a controversial doctrine among the magisterial reformers, as it was at a later time. Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, Bucer, Melancthon - all of them had comparable ideas of predestination. It took a couple of generations before the Calvinists and Lutherans developed incompatible views - although positively stated the Lutheran and Calvinist views are not easily distinguishable. So, it would not be accurate to say that predestination was a "minor" teaching - election and predestination were important to the idea of salvation by grace as understood by all of the Reformers, even as early as Wyclif and Hus (as Deb says below). The story of how predestination came to be so strongly identified with the Calvinists is complicated. It isn't altogether explained by John Calvin's own views on the issue. Certainly predestination is not the "central" issue of calvinism, as so many say that it is. If it were central, you're right that Calvin should be expected to have written much more about it than he did. Mkmcconn 02:32 Jan 11, 2003 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I'm a Presbyterian and consequently I believe in predestination, but I hadn't come across the word "predestinarianism" and I don't understand how it can differ from belief in predestination in any important respect, so I'd support the above change. As far as I remember from my reading of Calvin, predestination doesn't receive great emphasis in his writing, but it is inextricably linked with the doctrine of grace and is a cornerstone of the Calvinist faith. --Deb

You all seem to be more knowledgeable on this issue than I am, so I'll bow out on this one. kpearce

I take it that, by "predestinarianism" you are reffering to the concept that I know as double-predestination, in that God has decided every action one makes before birth, in fact at the beggining of time. Subsequently he has saved some souls and damned others, the reasons why this is the case and how he knows what will happen (he is omniscient) even Calvin agreed as uncomprehensible. However it is, as you say, a cornerstone of the faith. Calvinists believe that they have the calling through living good and faithful lives and, as a result, believe they are among the elect that have been saved by God. Consequently in order to be among the elect and a Calvinist one has to believe in predestination. David 16, Bristol UK

Some Calvinists believe this. Many of us consider this to be a distortion, destructive not only of Calvinism but of the Christian faith. Salvation is not through belief in predestination; and no Calvinist confession says that it is. See the Calvinism article, under "Hypercalvinism". Mkmcconn 01:18, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Theocracy

I think that some mention that critics of Calvin argue that Geneva was a theocracy is an important addition. I will try to phrase it carefully, but it links to many other Wikipedia discussions that mention Calvin and neo-Calvinist religious movements.--Cberlet 20:27, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

This is a case where show-not-tell works better. I would rather see a more complex discussion on the role of the Consistory in Geneva than imprecise labels like "theocracy." -- db 13:40, 09 May 2005 (UTC)

Some scholars say Calvin's Geneva was a theocracy--others say it was not. Some current small branches of Calvinism openly decribe themselves as Theonomic. Crticis call them Theocratic. At least this debate deserves a mention. If there is a more complicated way to discuss this, have at it; but there are many sides to this issue, and there are some large liberal organizations that argue that Theocracy is the proper term.--Cberlet 15:09, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Geographical failture

"Hungary (especially in Transylvania)"

Transylvania is a part of Romania and not Hungary...

Witches

I deleted the section about the persecution of witches because it was poorly written and formatted, the documentation was in German only, which is inadmissible in the English version of a page like this, and the text originally came from an IP known for vandalism (65.160.148.200; the text was copied by 24.186.74.181). My redacting should not be construed to mean, however, that this material does not belong in the article. The author should post here so we can resolve these issues and get the content into the article if the facts so warrant. --Flex 17:41, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Hi, Flex, I made these remarks. Sorry it did not meet your formating standards. I'm quite content if you rewrite it or format this particular contribution. As far as I know this is a part of Calvin's life which people have rather neglected - or they don't like to talk about it. I have never found any literature about it in English and the books in German have never been reprinted lately. What you wrote about vandalism that's not correct. I'd be obliged to you if you delete this remark. Best regards Ben (aka 80.145.63.210)

Hi, Ben. If the information about has not been "fit to print" recently (meaning it's not a new finding that was unavailable to previous biographers) or in any language but German, I wonder if it is significant enough to belong to an encyclopedia article, which, by definition, gives only a brief overview of a topic. The material would surely fit under an article about the persecution of witches, but I am not yet convinced it belongs here -- except perhaps as a brief example of Calvin's strictures in Geneva (cf. the bit about Servetus). Also, I do think it needs to be documented in English. Could you post here some translated quotes from the book you cited? Certainly, there are non-hagiographical sources out there (say, Will Durant's The Story of Civilization) that might mention this.

Also, the IP address from which your post came (80.145.63.210) differs from both of the IPs I mentioned. Perhaps you've used different computers for each posting? In any case, may I suggest you create a Wikipedia account to avoid being lumped in with a known vandal who uses the same computer or floating IP address? --Flex 20:56, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Numerous articles have references to foreign language texts. I don't think that this needs to be removed. On the other hand, I think this should be easily verifable in an English language text and I think it certainly deserves to be covered in this article - as we already cover Severus in an altogether too-small section on Geneva. Rmhermen 13:21, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)