Talk:Japan

Contents

1 Clarification request

2 Influences on Japanese Government

3 Biased Article

8 It is certain that Japan is still an empire formally at least.

9 Youth suicide

10 Geography of Japan

11 Heisei Era

12 Regions

Clarification request

From the article: 'The Koizumi government is attempting to privatize Japan Post, one of the country's largest private banking and insurance institutions, by 2007.'

That phrase doesn’t make sense, how do you privatize a private institution? And are we sure that Japan Post is a banking and insurance institution?? My guess is that instead of a ',' there should be a 'and', but in that case what is the name of that 'largest private banking and insurance institutionE Could someone with the correct knowledge on the topic fizz this? Thank you.

Japan Post is not a private company yet, it is a public company operated by the government. It is now planned to divide the company into four, which are postal services, postal savings services ("Yucho"; banking), postal life insurance services ("Kampo") and window networks (post offices), and privatize each on April 2007. ref: http://www.japanpost.jp/top/profile/english/3.html However, I am doubting if this phrase should be in this place (too much in detail, isn't it?). NOR 12:24, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Influences on Japanese Government

Someone added a phrase indicating that the Japanese government was influenced by the British system, but I was always under the impression it was the Prussian/German model that the Japanese were most influenced by. Anyone know more? CES 02:12, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

My way-old college studies taught me that the Japanese founders were influenced by the constitutional monarchy of UK but the Prussian/German model jurisprudence. I would try to find some type of reference to support this however, I could be wrong and the influences were more in certain eras (Meiji) versus others (post war). Revmachine21 10:09, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

In the Meiji era, Japan adopted British political institutions and a German legal system. Large parts of the Japanese civil codes are still basically translations of the German civil codes today, but the prewar Diet, peerage system, etc. were much closer to the British monarchy. (This sort of thing happened across the board: their army was based on Prussia's, but their navy was based on Britain's [which is why they still eat British-style curry, or so the story goes].) During the postwar era, they adopted a few American institutions, like a written constitution, two elected chambers in the Diet, etc., mostly because the people running the show were Americans. So there's quite a lot of influencing going on from various parts of the Anglo-German sphere. Sekicho 04:59, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)

Biased Article

I think this article has a large bias towards a Western view of Japan. In particular the claim that Perry "forced" the opening of Japan seems somewhat suspect. I just edited the religion section because the previous writer claimed that Japanese religion is dead or dying out. Let me know if you agree that this page needs major changes.

Could you give us some references? I remember I was taught that Perry forced the bakufu to open Japan. Besides, what is a Japanese religion? Have you heard of British religion, American religion? -- Taku 03:38, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)

Shinto is a definitely Japanese religion. There are also local superstitions of the Ainu and other isolated Japanese. The person proclaiming that Japanese religion is dying would need to show figures, not someone not saying anything about it. Someone needs to quote figures to show that these are not being practiced widely, or some sort of evidence that its more custom than spirituality (not by using P.O.V. sources).--ZayZayEM 07:36, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I am making several changes to the religion section based on the following quote from the Lonely Planet guide to Japan:

In many respects, the term 'religion' can be misleading for Westerners when it is applied to either Japan or China. In the West and in Islamic culture, religion is connected with the idea of an exclusive faith. Religions in Japan, for the most part, are not exclusive of each other.

Shinto (the native 'religion' of Japan), Buddhism, Confucianism and even Christianity all play a role in contemporary Japanese social life, and are defining in some way of the Japanese world view. If you are sceptical of the inclusion of Christianity, you need only attend a Japanese wedding to find certain Christian elements mingling happily with more traditional practices.

I also call attention to the statistics on NationMaster [1] (http://www.nationmaster.com) where they say the Japanese "observe both Shinto and Buddhist 84%, other 16% (including Christian 0.7%)" The other facts I mention can also be verified if people are sceptical.

Of course, we have to do more researches on this. But I don't think your change reflects the figures or the quote you cite at all. For example, there is no Japanese religion just like there is no American religion, and you have not shown there is one. Also, the Japanese "observe both Shinto and Buddhist" does not mean they would say they profess to believe in Shinto and Buddhist. In any case, I will try to find some authentic sources. -- Taku 03:00, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

For the time being, the religion section should reflect its main article Religions of Japan. I don't think your new version is in line with this. -- Taku 03:02, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

Empire

It is obvious that Japan is still an empire formally at least, since the emperor system exists still. -- 10.56, 22 Apr. 2005 (UTC)

Any opinions on the Liancourt Rocks issue?

The last line was added by the same IP address that blanked the Japan article and replaced it with the text "Alright pinkos, the show is over. Japan is an enemy to the majority as far as I am concerned. Go get out of your mom's basement you 40 year old loser. Please?" My opinion is that we should not use Talk:Japan to run a flame war about this subject.

Culture

I question the influence of "Greco-Buddhist" influence in Japan. It seems to me that by the time Buddhism reached Japan, it became much more Chinese in character then Indian, much less Greek. Also I think that anime and manga, as well as video games deserve more then just a mention as part of a list here. These are subtle points but ones I think need to be made.

Japanese Religion

Taku,

I am convinced that you don't really understand what Buddhism and Shintoism is all about. There has historically been almost no conflict between the two, for one. The second thing is that Buddhism and Shintoism are indeed moral philosophies, in the sense that they offer a means of guidance for a pure life. I think you are too hung up on the idea that someone must believe in only one religion. I want to make several changes in the next few days that reflect this both on this page and the Religions in Japan page.

-Thomas

I think you are still missing the point. Both region section and religions of Japan are not about Shinto and Buddhism. Thus, those articles should not discuss the conflict between the two for one. And I have no disagreement to that Buddhism and Shinto teaches moral philosophies. This is just not about Buddhism and Shinto. If you think both section and article state that a Japanese person in genera believes in Buddhism and not in Shinto. That is completely not what I intend to say.

I think you are confusing that both section and article are about "religions that originated in Japan". It is just not the case. -- Taku 05:33, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

Give me specific evidence for the following statement "Today, Japanese people's attitude towards religion tend to be indifference and their concerns are usually related to traditions, everyday customs and mythology rather than the source of morality or the guidance for one's life." Otherwise I will delete it, and other statements like it as I don't believe that this is true.

Please make sure you sign your statements with four tildas, it's getting a little hard to tell who's saying what. I tend to agree with the sentiment that the phrase Japanese people's attitude towards religion tend to be indifference is at the very least vague and unsupported ... it seems to be contradicted by the later phrase parents and children cerebrate Shinto rituals, students pray before exams, couples holds a wedding at a Christian church and one goes to a funeral at Buddhist temple. I guess a point of discussion is whether syncretism = indifference. CES 14:36, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

My point is that it certainly does not have to be true that syncretism=indifference, and I believe this is the case with religions in Japan.--Scipantheist 15:39, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Please don't hesitate to reword the phrases if needed. Maybe indifferent is not a right word. As was in the article, my intent is to say that Japanese are not religious in the sense Christians or Muslims are. I think we all agree that that Japanese people have the same kind of attitude towards religions as other people in the world is just not true. -- Taku 16:40, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

I have having a difficult time parsing that last sentence, with the double negatives. Can you please rephrase Taku? Personally, I think Japanese have a very similar attitude toward religion to "other people" (Americans, Europeans, other Asians). However, such a discussion starts into a land of such incredible generalisations that any approach in this area should be a warning sign toward NPOV. Davejenk1ns 21:36, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Well, saying that their view on religion is different is one thing, but saying they don't have believe in their religion as strongly is something else entirely. I view Christianity and Islam as exclusivist in the sense that they insist that there is only one path to salvation (theirs). Buddhism and Shintoism are not like that, but I think they are followed just a strongly, if not more strongly then religions in the west. See the changes I suggest. Also I will look for proof, but I think that Theravada Buddhism is pretty much nonexistant in Japan. --Scipantheist 22:03, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I did some research. The results are added to Wikipedia:Notes for Japan-related articles. For one, I never found that Japanese believe in Japanese religion, as again there is no such thing as Japanese religion. I am not sure inclusivist is a good term to express the Japanese people's attitude to religions. No thing I found so far supports this. I think that the bottom line, as Davejenk1ns suggests wisely, we should avoid comparing if Japanese are more or less religious or spiritual than the westerners. Especially saying Japanese believe in Shinto and Buddhism as strongly as people in the west do is quite misleading and is wrong to my knowledge. If you find more references, please consider adding them to Wikipedia:Notes for Japan-related articles. -- Taku 03:41, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)

First of all, thanks for accepting some of my changes here. I think that when you say that they believe in Shinto and Buddhism less strongly then people in the west believe in their religions, this is also wrong. Eastern religion is a difficult thing to grasp for a westerner, which seems to include most of the sources you are citing. Nirvana is exemplified by the blowing out of a candle analogy. Where does the flame go? Buddhism exists to STOP the endless cycle of rebirth into a world of suffering. Therefore Buddhists essentially desire to return to nothingness. Again, please give me a specific source that says,"The teachings of any religion are usually not well known among people." Otherwise this should not be included. Also, in defense of the Japanese Religion category, you allow a Japanese Buddhism page. The difference between Religions of Japan and Japanese Religion(s) is only in semantics.--Scipantheist 15:27, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

So to say, the visit to the "Yasukuni" Shinto-shrine is as like the presence to a religious ceremony of a "church of Hakenkreuz". [04:00, 04 May 2005 (UTC)]

Who the hell changed the emperor of Japan to 'Kennedy'? Sad little f*cker.

Emperor

A common fool, probably one of the many annonymous political nut cases that get off on tampering with articles, changed the emperor to 'Kennedy'. This was on the article for the past 6 months (at least). I have now returned it to it's original form.

It is certain that Japan is still an empire formally at least.

Japan is an empire same as that Sweden is a kingdom, since Japanese Emperor system still exists. But Japan's Government has called Japan "Japan" as the formal name and will do so. Perhaps Japan's Government wants to avoid that Japan may become "notorious" as an empire. [17:00, 05 May 2005 (UTC)]

Youth suicide

Someone added the following line: "People have speculated that the high stress academic life might be the reason for high suicide rates." I've heard this kind of comment before, but I thought I'd also heard that Japan having an unusually high youth suicide rate is not true (and media hype is to blame for this perception). Personally I have no idea which is true. Does anyone have concrete data so we know if this comment should be kept or not? CES 03:37, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

According to this (http://www.mentalhealth.gov.au/resources/nysps/compare.htm), Japan's youth suicide rates seem about average. Of course it may still be true that those suicides which do occur are prompted by academic stress. Mark ¹ 03:42, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

I just removed the sentence without seeing the comments here; I think it's a subject area worth writing about, but not as a speculatice one liner (who are "people"? How is "academic life" defined - there are - I believe - big differences between university and pre-university schooling for example). Ianb 06:06, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

The main article Education in Japan can go into education-related subjects in greater depth. Similarly, the sentence "Such a change would likely improve Crown Princess Masako's mental and physical health, which has deteriorated under pressure from Imperial Household bureaucrats to bear a male child." might find a better place in another article such as Imperial Household of Japan, or might be judged speculation and removed. Fg2 07:37, May 19, 2005 (UTC)

Geography of Japan

The post read:

About 73% of the country is mountainous, with a chain running through each of the main islands: the highest mountain, Mount Fuji, has a height of 3,776 m (12,388 feet). Since flat land is limited, many hills and mountainsides are cultivated all the way to the summits, and major cities have developed on every sizable plain.

I changed it to:

Japan is the 16th most densly populated country in the world List of countries by population density. However since about 73% of the country is mountainous, with a chain running through each of the main islands, flat land is limited. The population density is exacerbted by a traditional shinto belief that the hills were for the gods and hence there is very little agricultural or architectural development on Japan's mountains. Partly as a result major cities have developed on every sizable plain.

WHY:

Firstly the Fuji Height information is already in the article

Secondly it is just untrue that many hills and mountains are ‘cultivated all the way to the summits’. There is little or no human activity in Japan’s mountains except for the shinto shrines on almost every hill. Source for this are my own experience of living here and travelling around. However there is mention of this issue in 'Dogs and deamons; tales from the dark side of japan' by Alex Kerr.

I added the population desnsity in order to clarify what ‘limited’ means in terms of flat land and population generally.

-- Have you never been to Okayama, Niigata, Shimane, Shizuoka, or even remote places in Kyoto Pref.? Did you fail to see the terraced rice paddies all over the hills, especially in places such as Sado Island? I would suggest a rewording of the section, leaving this part in. Any opposing opinions? (BTW- it helps discussions to sign your posts). --Christophernicus 01:55, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Heisei Era

OK, I'll give you the argument that the current emperor is not called specifically the "Heisei Emperor" yet. However, I think this article is lacking in two areas: 1) There is absolutely no mention of the current era as "Heisei" or the calculation of dates by era names. 2) Although every official document I fill out (outside of the immigration office) uses these era names, there is no mention of either the Showa or Heisei periods, yet most Japanese today identify most with these eras. Any comments? --Christophernicus 02:06, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't know. Is it really noteworthy that the current era is Heisei or any other mention of era names? The criterion for inclusion is, because this is an article about Japan as a topic, if it is helpful understand Japan. -- Taku 04:10, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)

I think it's worth talking about. When my coworker came to Japan, she always confused by written dates in part because she's used to European date order (which is backwards from Japanese order) and in part because she wasn't aware that it's the year 17 over here. I think it's worth say, "Imperial reign years are still in common use in Japan, and officially required for government documents. The reign of Emperor Akihito is referred to as the Hesei Era…" --Carl 15:46, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't have a strong position on this. The question is how. The relationship between an Japanese emperor and era name is not that simple as the above. Technically, Heisei is not an era referring to the reign of Emperor Akihito. This is the very reason why it is wrong to call Akihito the Heise Emperor. What usually happens is that when an emperor dies and a new emperor gets to the throne, "as a convention", an era name changes as well. This convention was adopted, I think, after Meiji restoration. In other words, it is perfectly ok (whatever ok means here) to rename the era name or keep it regardless of changes in emperor. With those in mind, try to come up with some idea. -- Taku 23:03, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

Regions

In the regions section of the article, the map illustration is clearly numbered, but the article reads "From north to south...". Can someone who knows which are which number these regions so as to eliminate confusion, and take advantage of an otherwise ugly feature of the illustration? siafu 22:55, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Done. It should be some kind of mistake made when someone was editing the article. -- Taku

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