Talk:James I of England
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King of France
"He also claimed to be King of France, because his mother had been, for a short time, queen consort of France."
His mothers life had little to do with this title.Queen consorts didn't have rights to the throne.He became nominaly "King of France" on 1603 when he took the throne of England.All Kings of England held this title between Henry VI and George III.Henry VI had been declared both King of England and France after the deaths of his father (King of England) and his grandfather (King of France).Although he was the King who lost the Hundred Year War his heirs continued to take both titles upon coronation until 1801.So until 1801 any King of England also claimed the title of King of France.Including James.
User:Dimadick
Excellent. That is what makes Wiki so good. There is always someone out there who knows some useful but little known fact that improves all our knowledge. Thanks, Dimadick. JTD 00:00 Feb 7, 2003 (UTC)
Although he claimed the title of "King of France" is it proper to define him as the "King of France"? Susan Mason
Protection
I protected the Page. Susan and 172 were continuously reverting each other changes. I reverted to pre-edit-war state as is policy. -- JeLuF 07:02 Apr 12, 2003 (UTC)
Good call. Don't unprotect the article until Lir/Vera/Susan is banned. 172
Well, are you going to discuss the page or just talk trash? Susan Mason
In your case . . . no. Don't feed the trolls.
You are the one vandalizing articles. Susan Mason
Bloodlines
In any case, Im willing to speak to you if you ever wish to engage in dialogue. Susan Mason
- Both his parents seem to be Scottish. What makes you think he is English? Tuf-Kat
<argument removed>
To answer the question above, there was some English blood in both his parents. They had been the grandchildren of Margaret Tudor, who was about 60 % English. James IV (Margaret's first husband) was marginally English - his great-great-grandmother had been Jane Beaufort - but the amount of English that he passed onto his children was negligible. This means that since neither James V or Lord Darney's mother (sorry, her name has gone blank in my mind) married English spouses, they were about 30% English, and that James'es parents, Mary Queen of Scots and Lord Darnley were 15% English, and that James VI was therefore about 7.5% English. Not a high portion. I hope that this, and the diagram below, clarifies matters a bit.
60% ..............30%..............15%........................ 7.5%
Margaret Tudor - James V - Mary Queen of Scots
| - - James VI
- ? - Henry Stewart, Lord Darnley
--Actual Discussion about page-- It is a widespread convention to list titles of relatively equivalent rank in the order in which they were conferred, therefore it makes sense to list him as James VI of Scotland first, as that predated his inheriting the English crown.
And in terms of describing him, British would be the best adjective, Scottish next, but English is patently absurd. Dramatic 20:42 Apr 12, 2003 (UTC)
- James VI was part English - both his parent were grandchildren of Margaret Tudor, who was about 60% English - and part French (from his grandmother Marie of Guise). There was also Scandinavian blood from Margaret of Denmark, wife of James III.
- James VI was also part Scottish, but mainly from his father's side of the family. Five successive generations of Scottish royal marriages (James I to James V inclusive) to non-Scottish brides had resulted in James VI's mother, Mary Queen of Scots, having very little Scottish blood in her. If you combine the Scottish and English ancestries, you would argue that he was indeed significantly "British" in terms of his combined Scottish/English ancestry. Arno 07:49 Apr 15, 2003 (UTC)
British as the name of the state only occured in 1707 through it 1604 James VI/I did take about reigning over great brittaine. But because he and some other monarchs until 1707 used two ordinals, using that terminology is a recipe for confusion; how can a king of one kingdom have two ordinals? So standard usage with most historians is to reserve the word 'Britain' and 'British' until after the 1707 Act of Union, and keep the individual references to the two states until then. James was born Scottish, reigned in Scotland and inherited the throne of England while Scottish king, so Scottish is the right terminology to use, British is less right but explainable, English is garbage and patently absurd. STÓD/ÉÍRE 20:52 Apr 12, 2003 (UTC)
I thought "British" was also used for much earlier periods and was a general term meaning "pertaining to the Island of Britain". Dramatic 21:33 Apr 12, 2003 (UTC)
It was used much earlier and later, but as by that stage you were seeing the emegence of modern states, we have to be very careful and accurate in the use of terminology. So the saftest and most accurate thing to do is to stick strictly to formal terms. James was King of Scotland, then King of England. Each state existed with its own parliament and government. Britain creates the impression that there was only one state, but that didn't happen until 1707. That is why, even though great britainne was mentioned in 1604, it was such a poorly defined term that it is better left to 1707, when that became the legal name of the state (albeit spelt differently!)
Tirades
Maybe if we all deliberated with Susan/Dietary long enough the past will have changed to fit his incorrect facts? 172
- Would you mind creating a list of the facts you feel are incorrect that Susan or Dietary Fiber are posting? That way, we'll know exactly what you're talking about, and third-parties can check the information.
- --cprompt
Going by Adam/bridget/vera cruz/Susan mason/Dietary Fiber's standards, you would fill this page three times over with her garbage. Adam is banned twice for his behaviour and his fictions, now with two ficticious names he is trying the same garbage he drove people mad with for months before. No way, DF your days of screwing up wiki are over. STÓD/ÉÍRE 04:33 Apr 13, 2003 (UTC)
- Personally, I don't object to people making errors, but I do object to their telling lies. See my note to Susan Mason on wikipedia talk:naming conventions (names and titles) Deb 10:03 Apr 13, 2003 (UTC)
This page is for the discussion of the article on King James VI/I. Please could we all refrain from posting tirades against individual contributors and concentrate on the article? Thanks. Now, could someone involved in this dispute also please follow cprompt's advice and tell us what the problem is here? Let's be sensible about this. -- Oliver P. 15:22 Apr 13, 2003 (UTC)
Hegemony
I have put the quotes back in. I suppose someone should check to see it they are authentic or the best ones that could be found. When someone edits next they might redo the wikification within the quotes. I 'm not sure links to life and death are all that sensible.Fred Bauder 10:51 Apr 14, 2003 (UTC)
I think the point and the problem with the controversy is that with the crowning of James I as King of England it was the effective end of Scotland as an independent state and the establishment of English hegemony over all of Great Britain. That may be the point DF is getting at by putting the English title first. Perhaps some language about the end of Scottish independence needs to be worked into the article. Fred Bauder 10:51 Apr 14, 2003 (UTC)
The standard usage of monarchical names is to put them in order of date. As James was first king of Scotland, that is normally put first. He wasn't the King of England who became King of Scotland, he was King of Scotland who became King of England, and the article should show that. 'Susan Mason'/'Dietary Fiber' changed a lot of royal pages, in many cases adding in unverifiable 'facts', monumental clangers, unilaterally changing article stuctures after a debate had reached a consensus to lay them out differently, getting fundamental facts wrong, in one case unilaterally changing a two sentence paragraph to make it say the exact opposite of what it was meant to say, producing historical gobbledigook. The reversions were simply the moment when a number of people said 'this hacking up of articles has gone on long enough', particularly when 'she' was following around other people's edits and changing them. Hopefully without 'her' destructive influence, now that she has been banned, we can get back to doing serious factual fact, not mopping up her mess all the time. (Until of course, Adam produces his latest trolling creation to replace Bridget/Lir/Vera Cruz/Susan Mason/Dietary Fiber. Though unfortunately one anonymous user has already cropped up to pick up where SM/DF left off on some articles.) Hopefully the issue is closed, until the next member of the Adam family of trolls is launched like a vandalising cluster bomb on a defenceless wiki. STÓD/ÉÍRE 22:23 Apr 14, 2003 (UTC)
"However, he lacked Elizabeth's business skills and consequently the economy suffered." The "consequently" seems too strong - much of Europe was experiencing flow on problems from an increase in monetary metals from the new world, and as the effects were cumulative it was worse around then than at the time of the great discoveries. In the end, it worked to British advantage - but not just then. PML.
Protected
Moved from Wikipedia:Village pump
Now that Lir and his 'personalities' Lir/Bridget/Vera Cruz/Susan Mason/Dietary Fiber is gone (until the next Adam attack is launched with his next phoney name, we can now remove the protection from the James I of England page, so that some of their damage can be done; eg, the repositioning of the image, etc. ÉÍREman 00:20 Apr 21, 2003 (UTC)
- It is now unprotected. -- Notheruser 00:26 Apr 21, 2003 (UTC)
Naming Policy
Err...why are there several sentences talking about his silly "King of France" title, but no mention of him actually being King of Ireland? john 10:02 Apr 29, 2003 (UTC)
Wikipedia naming policy requires that where a monarch wears multiple crown, the major one only is used in the article title. Otherwise we get impossible to use titles. If one was to James's full titles, the article would be James VI of Scotland/James I of England, Ireland and France which is unwieldly, would be unlinkable for most if not all search engines, and is not used anywhere as a reference point. (And imagine using Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Nothern Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Barbados, . . .) Hence, though he was King of Prussia and Emperor of Germany, Wilhelm II is on as Emperor of Germany. Franz Josef was Emperor of Austria and King of Hungary but his article title doesn't say that. Of James's three effective realms (four if you include the nominal France) Ireland and Scotland were both small. England was his dominant crown, as shown by the fact he he didn't return to Scotland after inheriting the English throne. So James belongs under wiki policy at James I of England, just as James II of England belongs there and not James VII of Scotland/James II of England, Charles I at Charles I of England, not Charles I of Scotland, England, or George II at George II of Great Britain, Ireland. It all boils down to logic, practicality and usability and is standard wikipedia naming policy. In addition, whoever made the use broke the link between this talk page and the article page in their move, and other links too. The Scotland link is covered in a redirect. FearÉIREANN
I noticed Sir Francis Bacon wasn't really spoken about in the article, and he was also a lover of King James' it can be noted that his rise and fall mirrors that of King James
hi, sources for the lines about his witchcraft interests are: Witchcraft Act, [1] (http://special.lib.gla.ac.uk/exhibns/month/aug2000.html). regards, High on a tree 03:24, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Please tell whether the dates are Julian or Gregorian. -Juuitchan
"Queen James"
One area of James VI/I's life that for many years remained clouded in controversy were allegations that James was in fact homosexual. While his close relationships with a number of men were noted, earlier historians questioned their sexual nature.
Few modern historians cast any doubt on the King's homosexuality and the fact that his sexuality and choice of male partners both as King of Scotland then later in London as King of England were the subject of gossip from the taverns to the Privy Council. His relationship as a teenager with Esmé Stuart, Seigneur d'Aubigny, Earl of Lennox was criticised by Scottish church leaders, who were part of a conspiracy to keep the young King and the French courtier apart. Lennox, facing threats of death, was forced to leave Scotland. In the 1580s, King James openly kissed Francis Stewart Hepburn, Earl of Bothwell. Contemporary sources clearly hinted their relationship as sexual. When James inherited the English throne from Queen Elizabeth I in 1603, it was openly joked of the new English monarch in London that Rex fuit Elizabeth: nunc est regina Jacobus (Elizabeth was King: now James is Queen.)
Historians have debated whether James was unwise in his choice of male partners, from page-boy-turned-Gentleman-of-the-Bedchamber Robert Carr (made Earl of Somerset) to royal-cupbearer-turned-Earl-of-Buckingham, George Villiers, whose relationship with the King was discussed at the Privy Council (James called Villiers his 'wife' and he Villiers' 'husband'.) Buckingham in particular came to play a major part in the governance of the English kingdom, though historians differ on whether Buckingham's impact was positive or negative.
- I removed this patently unfair and offensive historical POV invention of smear politics written by authors against Scotsmen on the throne. Indeed, he was the first Scot to hold the position. The English always joked at the Scots' preference of Kilts, calling them womanly for wearing skirts. Everything here seems exaggerated, twisted and exploited to shame him for his style of Royal Prerogative without consent of the English Parliament and the application of the Divine Right of Kings, the Spanish Match and other contraversial issues about his reign. His reign was so despicable that the Puritans fled to America. That and possibly kissing his relative doesn't make him gay, especially when the Scots were beginning to show interest in French customs of affection. Excessive camaderie by the Monarch doesn't make him gay. His distance from his subjects may have inclined him to confide in very few people to restrict influences upon his control. He may have trusted very few people due to the fact that he found no friends in the English people. We are not to entertain the agendas of ad hominem historians looking to shadow his name. Plain and simple, if he chose unpopular friends it was because he didn't want factions taking over his reign. If he were womanlike, he would have been courting the gossip of many men as women do of eachother. His way of confiding in unfavourable people could very well be seen as paranoid and justly so with his allies mostly in Scotland, not England. If he was homosexual, he would have been penalised the way Henry VIII intended with his anti-sodomy laws instituted merely two reigns prior to James's, yet he was chosen the heir. At the time of his reign, the Act of Union was not yet in effect and many high nobles wished to unseat him from power to restore an Englishman, later witnessed with the rise of Oliver Cromwell, before such a permanence could be installed over England. Lord Kenneð Alansson 11:23, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I think all this discussion about whether or not he was gay is a bit anachronistic. I think that people read too much into these things - it has to be remembered that people in the 17th century had a completely different set of ideas about sexuality which would probably be completely alien to us today. Also, they may well have had different concepts about the amount of affection (kissing etc) that was acceptable between males. I agree with the above comment that James I's bad repuation in England may have been a deliberate campaign by his opponents. I think there was a resentment amongst some English people that he was Scottish. One historian has commented that James had been king of Scotland for many years before he became English king and was quite a successful ruler, and quite highly regarded. Only when he comes to ENgland does this change, suggesting that it may be ENglish prejudice that gave him a bad name.--Cap 13:01, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- I know! It's like just recently, when there were so many things which guys did that was considered gay, like long hair for starters. Piercings and certain colours of clothing all turned a man gay in some paranoid mass cultural eyes. The advent of this metrosexual idea just these days is a real tribute to perhaps a reflection of his day and era when anything not considered akin to Conan the Barbarian attitudes was immediately suspect. I hope we can allow this perspective into the article, because I frankly don't believe he was a queer based on the descriptions. It really does sound like factional warfare above all else, despite the fact that Villiers was an outright idiot when it came to his position and James' insistence that he will not give in to common sense according English lines. The Scots have always been called backwards by the English, but this was an instance where the king of both lands was himself Scottish. Elisabeth was herself of the Welsh party and so of course, the English Parliament had tight reins over her style. It was unfortunate that James had to somewhat copy her style of not giving in to English pressure; in her case it was marriage, so they could easily say she was a butch lesbian(or feminazi?), but obviously, she persecuted Catholics and could most likely do so of any dissenter, whereas James was from the non-persecutive Scottish royalty. He may have been seen as weak because although he favoured more traditional people under his wing, he did little to enforce opponent conformity except by the banishment that resulted in the American colonies. Something like, "Get out of my house", as opposed to "Do what I tell you to servant". The Scotsmen have always been more casual in their style in everything they did as opposed to the English institutions, a modification of Roman governing in early Britain, which Scotland never had. Arteries and veins run deep indeed. Kenneth Alanson 02:21, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)
These allegations appear false; firstly, James could not possibly have been homosexual, but only bisexual. Furthermore, these allegations are declared mere inventions of Englishmen in the modern Encyclopedia Britannica. -- Emsworth 23:50, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I have restored the Homosexuality text. This is because, not only is it likely true (and just because someone is Homosexual it doesnt mean that they are unable to have sex with women, particularly when their security on the throne, and their legacy, depend on it), but it played a significant part in his reign. The amount of favours lavished on George Villiers (later Duke of Buckingham) almost bankrupted the state, and lead to the reigning in of royal finances.
To percieve the text as a slur on the Scots is patently POV. To percieve the presence of 1 homosexual scottish king as a slur on scotland is simply homophobic. Please discuss reasons why you would remove the section on the talk page before doing so. To do otherwise is simply vandalism and not NPOV. 81.156.181.197 18:43, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC) (this is not a static IP)
The issue was indeed discussed. I did not support removal on the grounds of its allegedly slanderous nature. Rather, I removed it because it was, I believe, false. There are respectable encyclopedias, such as the Encyclopedia Britannica, which state quite clearly that the assertion was baseless. (See [2] (http://www.britannica.com/eb/print?tocId=44856): "It was also rumoured that he was homosexual and preyed upon the young boys brought to service at court. This caricature, which has long dominated the popular view of James I, was largely the work of disappointed English office seekers whose pique clouded their observations and the judgments of generations of historians.") If there are offered, on this talk page, credible references to the contrary, then I will not oppose the re-insertion of the information. -- Emsworth 19:00, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
"Rather, I removed it because it was, I believe, false" this is a point of view, it is not a NPOV. Whatever the facts of the matter are, it must be pointed out that James' favouritism of George Villiers went to the extent of damaging the country. James I's otherwise strong hold on power is difficult to reconcile with his tolerence of George Villiers' actions (or indeed his elevation to him to the peerage, or granting of large tracts of land (including some very valuble patches in very central london)), unless they were particularly close and he was lavashing favourites on him for a reason. If you consider the section to be biased in some POV manner then change it to be more NPOV. do not delete it. Whether James was homosexual or not, there were certainly rumours about it. This alone merits mention in the article. CheeseDreams 09:59, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC) CheeseDreams 09:59, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I have removed the section but kept some important information on rumours elsewhere in the article. (James was only a child when he supposedly kissed Esme Stuart, so it appears unlikely that this relationship was sexual.) Irrelevant and completely unsubstantiated rumours (such as the one that James called Buckingham his "wife") have been completely removed. -- Emsworth 14:37, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- I have once again restored the article. It is large section of the article, please do not remove it without discussing here with those people who wish to keep it for a while. This discussion should involve more than 1 person from each side. Do not act unilaterally. CheeseDreams 15:29, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- In my opinion the very fact that there were rumours of this sort is worthy of mention. In addition he did lavish ridiculously generous favours on George Villiers, including giving him large chunks of central london (including charing cross, and some of the surrounding area, which still bears his name, e.g. Villiers Street, Buckingham Street), ennobling him, and giving him substantial political power. This is a very odd thing to do to a cupbearer, unless of course he is your boyfriend. CheeseDreams 15:29, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The rumors should be mentioned. I think we should try to discuss it in as NPOV a way as possible, but I don't think we should remove all reference to this, since I think this remains a matter of some dispute. john k 17:04, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I have retitled the "Queen James" section to "Homosexuality" and have changed the discussion to a more NPOV style. If CheeseDreams is satisfied, I will venture to remove the NPOV dispute tag atop the article. -- Emsworth 17:36, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- I have re-edited the article. The "Rex fuit" quote I have moved nearer the top, as it seems out of place where it was located, and provides context better where I have moved it (and also balances out paragraph sizes). I have restored the links to the George Villiers and Robert Carr pages (I have no-idea why these were removed, I can only assume you were manually copying the pages, and didn't note the links). In addition I have re-introduced the Privy Council and Esme Stuart details. This is because these provide detail of how the relationships were the affairs of state, and the controversy simply making the wrong choice of boyfriend could cause. I have left Boswell out, as it seems rather irrelevant, politically. But failing to mention Esme Stuart would be similar to failing to mention Nell Gwyn in an article about Charles II. CheeseDreams 19:38, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- I had removed the links on Somerset & Buckingham because they were already linked in the article. Wiki policy seems to be that each item be linked only once, with the exception of dates, which are always linked. Incidentally, the article does already mention Lennox (see section 2). But, these issues are not important; the main controversy seems to have been resolved. -- Emsworth 20:04, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
His homosexuality gets a whole section whereas in a biography it would get about a paragraph... it gets almost as much mention as his early reign or his conflict with parliament... It's not that important. btw I know he definitely referred to himself as 'wife' and Buckingham as his 'sweet child' in letters. Plus in about 1618 other factions at court tried to introduce handsome young men in order to usurp Buckingham. There is an awful lot of circumstantial evidence that he was very familiar with his favourites, and not in a socially acceptable way, in a away that was frowned on by many. Did he actually commit homosexual acts? Who cares!?
- Everyone at court, every country with relations with England would care. As was mentioned earlier, sexuality was interpreted differently in that age, in that it had dire political ramifications. In Anne Somerset's thorough biography of Elizabeth I, James' homosexuality had enough of a political impact on the realm for it to be examined during Elizabeth's time. It was a significant element of the court, as emotions, chivalry, charm determined your place, your ability to jockey for position next to the monarch, so your power. Thus his consorts would have had a significant amount of power just by being close to him, able to persuade him to their point of view, persuade him to favor their people. This could also be a threat to the realm when their loyalties may not be known, if they could be persuaded to work for France or Spain; they can put the monarch in a compromised position, as eventually happened to d'Aubigny (and as happened to court favorites in Elizabeth's time, most notoriously Robert Devereux, 2nd Earl of Essex). The psychological motivations are also not to be underestimated for a boy who grew up in a loveless childhood, admiring his male mentors in the absence of his mother, thus having no significant relationships with women. --scazza 20:41, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
legacy?
All in all I think that this is a great article, but it seems to have quite an anti-James Whiggish bias and seems to be in need of a revision.
There seems to be lots of stuff about how he always wanted money... yes he spent too much but unlike Elizabeth he had a larger court to pay for because he had a family. Many of his gifts were politically advantageous for a king trying to command loyalty in a new kingdom. The values of crown revenue had been eroded due to inflation and Elizabeth's sale of crown lands.
By and large he did pretty well under the circumstances, keeping the country largely out of expensive and destructive wars on the continent and avoided violent religious conflict at home. There is too much emphasis on the things that he did that caused conflict, without explaining why he did so and what the alternatives were...
I don't really get the 'legacy' section... it basically seems to imply that war was more or less inevitable after James died. In general the tone of the article is written from a 'we know the war happened in the 1640s, lets go back in time and show how the kingdom was flying headlong in that direction the' perspective.