Talk:Iyer

Contents

1 Deities worshipped 2 Iyers Today 3 reverting Anonymous contribution (by 68.119.82.49 )as on 07-Apr-04 4 Famous Iyers 5 Aryan & Dravidian 6 Subrahmanya Bharati 7 Infobox 8 Social Stigma 9 Social Group? 10 Mani Shankar Aiyar 11 migration? 12 deletions 13 Recent unencyclopedic additions 14 Para removed 15 orthopraxy

Deities worshipped

• From the article, added by User:KRS, "Iyers are Shaivites worshipping Shiva as their principal God". From my understanding, Iyers are advaitins claimining allegiance to the Kanchi Math or some other Math established by Sankara. Isn't one of the defining principles of advaita that of a nirguna brahman, and all deities being manifestations of that brahman? All Iyers I've come across worship all deities - Shiva, Narayana, Rama, Krishna, Ganesha etc. without bias. Adi Sankara has himself composed slokas on various deities. Could KRS cite a reference for suggesting that Iyers are Shaivites? -- Ambarish

I can't cite any sources, this is my general impression as a member of the community. Isn't it considered that Iyers worship Shiva as opposed to Iyengars who worship Vishnu? Probably it could be rewritten as "Iyers predominantly worship Shiva". KRS 07:56, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Disclaimer: I am not a member of the community. The following is my understanding: Iyers are followers of Adi Sankara's advaita philosophy. Adi Sankara taught that among the manifestations of Parabrahman are Brahma, Vishnu and Siva performing their specific duties, as well as Sarasvati, Lakshmi, Parvati, Ganesha, Karthikeya, ... performing their respective duties. Thus, an Iyer is expected to treat all deities as manifestations of Parabrahman. Of course, specific families or individuals may have their own ishta-devatas or family deities. Take a look at:

• [A FAQ entry at the Advaita Vedanta Homepage (http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/avhp/ad_faq.html#8)]
• [A forumhub.com thread (http://forumhub.com/tnhistory/8266.25567.02.49.52.html)]
• [A letter to The Hindu (http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/2001/01/27/stories/05271307.htm)]

Iyers are indeed advaitins. In fact, from what I know, what primarily separates them from Iyengars is the fact that Iyengars believe in Ramanuja (who came after Adi Sankara, I believe), and in his philosophy of dvaitam. Less formally speaking, from my experience, I have seen Iyers to be Shaivites, and Iyengars to be Vaishnavites. Iyers are NOT sole worshippers of Shiva and his pantheon. Shiva is considered to be the chief, or most important deity, not the only. This has a few consequences, one of them being a change in some of the mantras that are chanted during the Sandhyavandanam (A prayer dedicated to the Sun, performed three times a day). To any familiar with what I'm talking about, Iyers chant "mamopaartah samastah dooridakshyadwara shree parameshvara preetyartham" (the bolded text means Shiva), while Iyengars chant "mamopaartah samastah dooridakshyadwara shree naarayana preetyartham" (the bolded text refers to Vishnu).

In any case, Iyers names their children after all kinds of deities. Ramakrishnan, Srinivasan, Krishnamurthy, etc. are fairly common. In summary, I contend that "Iyers follow the Advaita philosophy of Adi Sankara, according to which both Siva and Vishnu and manifestations of Parabrahman". If you think you agree, I could go ahead and change the wording, or feel free to rewrite it yourself. Ambarish 09:23, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

You can go ahead and change, I am a not-so-well-informed person as far as such matters are concerned except when they intersect with intellectual or philosophical issues. Most of the info featured in the page consists of generally accepted viewpoints but this may not necessarily be 100 % factual. When you get to know wikipedia better, you will realise that viewpoints are also a form of knowledge- some say this, but others say that and so on and on:-)KRS 13:00, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Done. Thanks, and feel free to change anything that sounds POV-ish. I'm still new to Wikipedia :-) Ambarish 22:39, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

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Iyers Today

The last para sounds so odd and POV. AFAIK, many other non-Iyers view Iyers as crooked and people who group themselves (sorry don't know the correct term in English), and such info is not available in this article. Also, doesn't have any info about Thanthai Periyar... This article seems to be written by a girl who is chauvinistic about her community (No offense, just my opinion). --Rrjanbiah 05:12, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Just read your comment This article seems to be written by a girl who is chauvinistic about her community. Though you say that you mean no offense, it still sounds offensive to me, not in terms of community but the way you have employed the words written by a girl. Maybe you use the word 'girl' to denote gender and maybe you are not aware that its quite derogatory or politically incorrect to use such terminology, especially when gender is not the issue here. I wish that in future you check your statements for their meaning before you edit.

Regarding my belonging to the community of Iyers, ofcourse, that's one of the main reasons I have sufficient knowledge to write about them. I have tried to be neutral, I have even written many a time the sterotypes even contradict and cancel out each other and given contradictory viewpoints. If you look carefully, there are lots of negative qualities I have mentioned, a few of which are

• shrewdness- means cunningness primarily! However since in the Indian context many use the word shrewd to mean intelligent you might have missed its negative connotations.
• lesser loyalty to one's community and more to one's individual self
• flexibility in changing one's opinion bourgeois mentality

Note that this is supposed to be stereotypical views of the community and does not purport to be fact. KRS 04:08, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Better to edit the article than engage in argumentum ad hominem. -- Arvindn 05:33, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I'm afraid, you might have misunderstood argument Vs. opinion. -- Rrjanbiah 07:40, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The last para seems POV. Iyers are perceived as intelligent. So, how are Dalits perceived? The perception is of the author alone. Also, attributing filter coffee to Iyers is not right. Is there any historical proof that Iyers invented filter coffee? Or are there statistics to prove that Iyers consume them in large quantities (more than any caste)? I followed through to the article on filer coffee. It states that coffee is popular in Brahmin households. But again this is unsubstantiated by references."Their strenghs"- what strengths? There are no statistical studies cited to prove that iyers form a substantial chunk of people in these professions when compared to other castes. The last para dwells on sterotypes which seems unnecessary. "Simple living , high thinking" is grossly POV.

This is a sober encyclopedia with no space for non-facts.

Arunkrishnan 12:13, May 28, 2005 (UTC)

reverting Anonymous contribution (by 68.119.82.49 )as on 07-Apr-04

I reverted a major edit by an anonymous user, as this user has deleted some information from the article. For example, the following passage was (perhaps inadvertently) deleted

The migration to the South features in legends of the sage Agastya; once the Vindhya mountain range in central India continued to grow higher and higher showing its might. Sage Agastya, sent to control it, asked it to stop growing until he returned from his sojourn in the South. The Vindhya bowed its head to Agastya and promised to comply with his request. Agastya never returned and the Vindhyas never grew further.

The user has also made some new content additions which deserve to stand, but the lack of edit summaries made it difficult for me to get them out and selectively replace them. But, I do plan to do that at some point. In the meantime, I would appreciate if the user would come forward and explain the deletion in the edit summary, and/or explicate in the Talk Page about the changes he wants to bring about. Regards Chancemill 05:52, Apr 7, 2004 (UTC)

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Kamal is not an Iyer--Chancemill

AFAIK, Kamal is an Iyer; his father is Srinivasan Iyer. But, few people also say that he is Iyengar. Any citations/comments? --Rrjanbiah 07:45, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

To my knowledge, he is an Iyengar. Maybe this [1] (http://www.telugufilmserver.com/kamalprofile.shtml) lends credence to that. Most of Kamal's immediate family have names typical of Iyengar customs. But, not sure - really. Chancemill 08:17, Apr 7, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the citations :-) --Rrjanbiah 08:28, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Kamal is an Iyengar. His nephew suhasini married Mani Rathnam who is an Iyer. That's how kamal is connect with iyers. Kartheeque 07:44, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

Famous Iyers

Somebody added these names to the list:

• Satyamurthy (Indian freedom fighter and former Chief Minister of Tamil Nadu state)
• Sir CV Raman Nobel laureate and physicist
• Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar (Nobel laureate and physicist)
• M S Swaminathan (Indian agriculturist and proponent of the Green Revolution in India)

Could you provide some documentation that these people are, in fact, Iyers? They do not carry the name Iyer. Davidcannon 11:14, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

It was added by Chancemill. AFAIK, all these people are Iyers. And I'm sure Chancemill may not be wrong as he is much aware of this community. FYI, some people used to drop the Iyer suffix--moreover it is not necessary that a person's name should consist Iyer; Iyer is a caste or community just like Jews. HTH. --Rrjanbiah 11:49, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Thank you for answering my question; I'm satisfied now:-)Davidcannon 02:04, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Rrjanbiah is right. I too know the last 3 to be Iyers (I think Swaminathan is a distant relative of mine :-). These days very few people keep the name because of the casteist implications. Arvindn 02:58, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I'm adding these two Iyers:

1. R.K. Narayan
2. R.K. Laxman

Their father was R.V. Krishnaswami Iyer if you need proof.

Aryan & Dravidian

The Aryan Invasion Theory is now discredited. Aryan and dravidian are purely used in a linguistic sense now and therefore iyers are also dravidians. The page says Iyers are of Aryan origin and this is not simply correct. They are infact migrants who took up tamil as their mother tongue.

Also, their migration is not from North India. They are supposed to have migrated from Andhra pradesh. That's why you find many telugu Iyers as well.Kartheeque 07:53, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

The Aryan Invasion Theory is discredited? IMO, it's at the moment merely controversial. BTW, could you cite a reference for your statement that Iyers migrated from Andhra? Thanks. Ambarish | Talk 08:27, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

I don't have references. I am an Iyer. In my family, we celebrate Ugadi more specially than the tamil new year's day. Also, many of my relatives are both tamil and telugu, though I myself am a tamil. I have heard this in my family. Infact, what I have heard is that the Vadama subcaste(Vadama refers to a northener) comes from Andhra Pradesh. Kartheeque 08:45, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

The theory of migration from the North is just an extension of the theory that Iyers are Aryan, and is a different issue altogether. Re. migration from Andhra: although linguistically the Telugu country and the Tamil country have been distinct for a while, culturally they have a lot in common. Iyers are sometimes referred to as Smarthas, and share a lot in common with Telugu Smarthas (Tyagaraja etc.). This, of course, does not mean that Iyers necessarily migrated from either region to the other. It's much more plausible that Smarthas are a community spread all over South India. As an aside, whether "Iyer" refers to Tamil-speaking Smarthas or whether "Iyer" is a Tamil word for Smartha is an interesting question in itself. Ambarish | Talk 09:43, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

This may not be a direct reference to this thread. But, I have been witness to too many of these discussions now. Personally, I think it is only too naive to assume that there are such people today who are purely-bred Dravidians or purely-bred Aryans. I simply cannot gauge the logic behind the assertion that there is a racial divide in this country based on these divisions. All we can say from Aryan Invasion theory is that - sometime in the past there were two cultures or two sub-sects of the same culture who occupied different parts of India. I cannot buy the argument that 5000 years into known Indian history, there are communities who still retain their pure blood/ideology/intuitive traits and there was absolutely nil intermingling. It is ridiculous to say the least, and offensive at its worst (I have been witness to a spectrum of these possibilities). The prevalence of Iyers among South India is equally counterbalanced by the worship of Shiva (Pashupati of the Indus valley settlers) and Kali (Mother of the Indus valley settlers) in the North. It is only logical to conclude that Hinduism and all its positive/negative connotations arose out of the intermigling of various communities. Chancemill 10:19, May 27, 2004 (UTC)

The notion that Brahmins came to the South from elsewhere on the request of Chola kings to perform yajnas is substantiated by recorded history, important books on the history of South India mention this( Nilakanta Shastry? will try to cite sources)

The notion of Northern origin is derived from oral history, each of these subsects have a unique name that describes the mode of their entry into the South- Brahatcharanam means through the hills or something, Vadama means the most recent entries from the North. I don't know where the hard proof is for this. The notion that these Brahmins came to be called Iyers is something I have read only on the net, maybe derived again from oral histories.

About Aryans/ Dravidians, whether it is just a belief/ myth/ fact, I think it is a necessary point to be included as speculation for its effect on subsequent events- when an entire state's political history still continues to be determined by this hypothesis. KRS 18:38, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

Subrahmanya Bharati

Subrahmanya Bharati never denied his caste identity. Infact, he even performed upanayanam to a harijan boy and made him an Iyer. He was always an Iyer. Only those around him felt he was too far away from orthodoxy. Kartheeque 08:57, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

If that is the case, what does one make of his famous verse

Jathigal illayadi pappa. Kula thazchi solluvathu pavam

(There are no castes, dear. It is a sin to degrade a community.) Chancemill 10:04, May 27, 2004 (UTC)

The statement simply means that no one should see differences among humans and all are same. And, from the act of having performed an upanayanam to a non-brahmin, we can easily say that his idea of removing caste did not mean leaving his caste, but to make everybody else brahmin. Kartheeque 10:30, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

Infobox

What is the significance of bulleted vs. unbulleted items here in the section on related ethnic groups? Can some one make this clearer, either by reformatting or by adding text? -- Jmabel 16:28, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Done. --Rrjanbiah 10:06, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Social Stigma

Is it wrong for an Iyer to fall in love with a Tamil of a different caste? (An Iyer male or female falling in love with a Tamil non-Iyer female or male, respectively) -- 68.20.3.253 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Special:Contributions&target=68.20.3.253)

According to the caste system, not only Iyer, but for anyone (belongs to any caste) to marry person of different caste is wrong. --Rrjanbiah 05:41, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Social Group?

Would this be more better classified under Category:Social groups of India instead of Category:Indian culture Alren 17:31, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This has to be under Category:Caste, which is already done. --Rrjanbiah 19:58, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Mani Shankar Aiyar

User:Hemanshu, Mani Shankar Aiyar is probably referred to as Aiyar in the (north ?) Indian tradition of referring to people by their family names. Any member of the Aiyar community could potentially be referred to as "Aiyar", I guess. I don't see how this is particularly relevant. Ambarish 02:54, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It is relevant because somebody may want to find out who is being referred to by that name... he is often referred to simply as Aiyar. It was meant to be like a disambiguation. --Hemanshu 03:55, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, didn't see this until now. But you see, just about any member of the community who uses the name could be referred to using "Aiyar". For instance, see list at Iyer#Some notable Iyers. Do you want to add all their names as disambiguations? Ambarish 03:07, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

migration?

Recent anonymous edits have (without comment or discussion) removed all mention of northern origin and migration to the south. I have no idea of the facts of the case, I just want to make the change visible. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:16, Jan 23, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. I've reverted some of them, and edited others. The migration theory exists, although controversial. The article makes exactly that point, so removing the text is untenable. Ambarish 03:19, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Apart from the migration controversy, I see some valid points in his edits. Especially, Iyer<-Ayya<-Aryan explanation is too weird. --Rrjanbiah 05:10, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Why don't you go ahead and re-add them? It's possible that in my reversion, I've removed out some valid points. I reverted the Anon edits because there was no reason for mass deletion of information. ::: Regarding Iyer -> Ayya -> Aryan: the etymological connection between Iyer/Iyengar and Ayya is well-known. The English spellings might mask the link, but if you write the words in Tamil, it's quite apparent. As for Ayya deriving from Arya, I'm not so sure. However, without proof, I'd object to removing the existing content - it was added by User:KRS and there's no reason to believe that she did not know what she was doing. My 2 paise, Ambarish 07:15, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The root word of அய்யா is அய்யன்--which precedes Aryans or Sanskrit influence. I'll be happy to see the reference(s) for current reasoning. FWIW, this reminds me of a brahmin group which claimed that Sanskrit is the parent language on the earth, but lost the battle--unless that is true, this explanation doesn't fit. --Rrjanbiah 17:54, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

deletions

Does anyone know why the following were removed (without comment)?

• T.N. Seshan Ex-Chief Election Commissioner, Ex-Cabinet Secretary
• singer M S Subbulakshmi

Jmabel | Talk 05:35, Apr 16, 2005 (UTC)

Recent unencyclopedic additions

I've cut the following recent unencyclopedic additions by User:35.8.130.171, but they seemed like OK talk page material, so I'm reproducing them here: -- Jmabel | Talk 01:44, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)

Iyers are socalled secular.

The Iyers are to follow/worship Lord Shiva (or Nataraja) and there is another group called Iyengars, who worship another famous deity Lord Vishnu. There have been sectarian beliefs on both the sides. So, simply it is 'Divide and Rule' policy. Divide in the name of religion. and Rule!!

(Recently the people incharge of Kamakoti Beedam -- the Acharyas currently in position -- are caught up in a murder case. So, religion has all become for money and fame as well as self interests! [[2] (http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2125/stories/20041217006101900.htm)]!

-- (User:35.8.130.171 20 April 2005)

Para removed

"There are many essentialising features/ practices/ stereotypes of the Iyer community that are open to interpretation. Some may be factual while others may be either fictitious or obsolete, many a time the sterotypes even contradict and cancel out each other! To mention a few random ones - vegetarianism, filter-coffee drinking, intelligence, discipline, lesser loyalty to one's community and more to one's individual self, honesty, uprightness, valuing truth rather than loyalty, aversion to violence and confrontation, flexibility in changing one's opinion, resilience, objectivity, proclivity to rational thinking rather than emotion, bourgeois mentality,lesser importance to fields such as sports and trade, more emphasis on those related to thinking,and so on and on! However, there are also perceptions of Iyers being nepotistic, and being strictly adherent to casteist hierarchies though only nominally living by the tenets of the system."

The above para seems grossly POV. There are no proofs or references given.This is a sober encyclopedia with no space for non-facts.

• filter coffee drinking- need statistics to prove iyers consume more filter coffee than any other caste

• 'intelligence'- need statistics and intelligence studies

• 'discipline'- vague assertion.

• 'lesser loyalty to one's community and more to one's individual self, honesty, uprightness, valuing truth rather than loyalty, aversion to violence and confrontation, flexibility in changing one's opinion, resilience, objectivity, proclivity to rational thinking rather than emotion, bourgeois mentality,' - vague assertions.

• 'lesser importance to fields such as sports and trade, more emphasis on those related to thinking'- sources?

• 'nepotistic, and being strictly adherent to casteist hierarchies though only nominally living by the tenets of the system'- need sociological studies and references

Therefore I removed it. Arunkrishnan 12:15, May 28, 2005 (UTC)

orthopraxy

Is there a definition for this word orthopraxy ? viyyer 17:48, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• New to me, but I would presume it to be formed by analogy to "orthodoxy" and to refer to practice rather than doctrine. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:11, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)