Talk:Hymn to Freedom
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An earlier comment:
- Unfortunately, we can't read the Greek characters with our non-Greek browsers: could you please redo the Greek passage either in UTF-8 or as HTML entities, like this: ΑΒΓ αβγ
I hope that fixed the Greek characters: I set my charset to Windows-1252, cut, went to edit and pasted back the chars.
- FWIW, I see no Greek characters in the article. If you want them read you need to find another method. -- Someone else 22:26 Jan 2, 2003 (UTC)
- I see good-looking Unicode codes in the source of the article, and real Greek characters under IE5+W2K. Perhaps is the problem with your browser, and/or the font it uses ? FvdP
- Same here: Good Greek letters from Unicode entities -- WORKSFORME with Mozilla running on Linux. -- Anon.
- probably... could be a Mac thingy, though I'm using IE5 and have tried UTF-8, Western, etc encodings. W2K? Not having much experience putting non-Latin characters in web-pages, I know only that I can see them when HTML encoded like on this page, but they look oriental in the source article. If I'm the only one, fine, not much loss... -- Someone else 22:40 Jan 2, 2003 (UTC)
The Greek characters look fine to me when I use mozilla, although I cannot see them when I use netscape. But dammit, someone's put in accents that look to us Linux and other Unix users like question marks! Could those be corrected? This always happens with Microsoft "smart quotes"; people write "the legistlature?s intent was", etc. -- Mike Hardy
- No question marks here, with Red Hat Linux and Mozilla 1.2.1. Just Greek chars, some with and some without accents. -- Anon.
I have now added a second version, using α etc. As I know of browsers that don't show this kind of text, I haven't deleted the original version. Is it acceptable to include both versions, so that most people can at least get one of them correctly? -- dnjansen 00:13 Jan 3, 2003 (UTC)
The title Yμνoς πρoς την Eλευθεριαν can be transcribed according to the old Greek (assumed) pronunciation to Hýmnos pròs tèn Eleutherían or according to the new Greek pronunciation to Imnos (or Innos) pros tin Eleftherian. In no case is the spelling Eλεφθεριαν, transcribed to Elephtherian (as found in an older version of this page) correct. In new Greek, ευ is transcribed (and pronounced similar to) ev or ef, depending on the following sound (for example, Eυαγγελιoν Evangelion, "Gospel"). A single υ is transcribed (and pronounced) as i. In addition, h is no more pronounced. I move the article to the new Greek transcription, as the hymn is new Greek. -- dnjansen 22:17 Jan 2, 2003 (UTC)
Could "Hymnos pros tin Eleutherian" be a good way of transliterating this title? I've written a number of queries on talk pages about transliteration conventions from Greek into Roman characters; maybe some knowledgeable person could answer those in an article devoted to the topic. See Talk:Mount Athos and Talk:Transliteration. -- Mike Hardy
A transliteration for old Greek would be Hymnos pros tēn Eleutherian or Eleytherian, probably even with the accents, as shown above. (For older browsers: The letter ē should be shown as an e with an overline.)
A transliteration for new Greek would be Ymnos pros tēn Eleutherian or Eleytherian, also with some accents (different from old Greek). The H is neither written nor pronounced in new Greek, so it should not be transliterated.
I have used transcriptions in my contributions. Although they are in some cases less exact, it is easier for most people to pronounce the words at least approximately correct. (Remember, however, that Greek pronounce the vowel transcribed by i similar to English ee in geese.)
To answer Mike Hardy's question: I think not. tin is a new Greek transcription, where the old pronunciation of η as [ε:] is replaced by the new one as [i] (so-called itacism).
However, the rest (hymnos and eleutherian) are old Greek transcriptions/transliterations.
Of course, the change in pronunciation from old to new Greek did occur gradually, so at some time mixing of the pronunciations must have occurred.
However, as it is not fully clear that υ has changed from y to i (in hymnos) after η changed from e to i, the mixing should be avoided anyway.
I would further argue that this hymn is a new-Greek text and should be transcribed/transliterated according to new Greek pronunciation/script. -- dnjansen 00:13 Jan 3, 2003 (UTC)
Under what name is the subject of this article best known in English? If it's Hymn to Freedom then the article should be moved to there and a redirect for Imnos pros tin Eleftherian should be set up. --Robert Merkel 23:07 Jan 2, 2003 (UTC)
Done. The Anome 23:10 Jan 2, 2003 (UTC)
Re: the comment in the article text about the letters in []. The [ει] is optional, and based on regional differences (that class of verbs has different present-tense conjugations in the 1st and 3rd persons depending on where in Greece you're from). Not as sure about the [ν]; I think it might technically go there, but is usually dropped when actually saying the phrase, as "tin ghi" is a bit of an awkward juxtaposition of sounds. --Delirium 16:32 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I added a more literal English translation. Feel free to correct as necessary. Kipling does a good job capturing the spirit of the poem in English, and includes all the major points, but it's a very loose translation. The literal translation is a much worse poem, but I thought it might be useful. --Delirium 17:44 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
--- Gentlemen, you are all wrong! Please find a 100% Greek person to help you with answering all your questions. Do not speculate, just open a book and do your homework. I guess, what us Greeks are now supposed to do, is go start a web page complete with pointless speculations about the "Star Spangled Banner" or the "God Save the King". Please ... don't we have anything better to do?!?
I agree!You are indeed all wrong. I am Greek. It is as simple as that. The poem was written in "old" Greek, namely the Katharevousa. It just doesnīt make difference. The changes were simply made in order to make the language easier grammatically speaking. the sole difference in th title of the poem is the eis which means to. The eis tin of katharevousa became stin in dimotikh. There is nothing of katharevousa a native greek speaker would not understand today. It is the exact same language. The same way english has changed and for instance thy God has become your God. The pronounciation of Katharevousa is not "assumed" as mentioned before.It is well known. Fyi the lines that make up the Greek national anthem are exactly as Solomos wrote them. Nothing has changed.
Regarding the transliteration in Latin I think the point is to achieve the exact hearing and pronounciation of the word as in itīs original tongue. I think that would be best achieved with "hymnos eis tin Eleftherian". And anyway to be frank it is not such an important issue..!
I'd like just to comment and give emphasis on what i think is of some importance.
The Hymn doesn't praise greeks, money, land, god or anything.
It is a hymn to freedom. And actually that's what the title says: Hymn to FREEDOM
read it as such, and don't let the mentioning of swords, bones and deaths misguide you.