Talk:History of the Soviet Union (1927-1953)

Contents

1 Snowdog's Comments 2 'Espionage' section 3 Neutrality's preposed compromise between VeryVerily and 172 4 Industrialization statistics 5 Recent edits 6 Katyn massacre at wrong time

Snowdog's Comments

I was transalting this article in Italian. It seems to me that the part on the post-WWII period focuses more on USA than on Soviet Union and is not exaclty what I call NPOV. I mean, reading the article I got the impression that USSR only responded to provocations from the USA. While I think that provocations and retaliations were bilateral.

Snowdog 13:43, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

TDC, When reverting the alleged "vandalism" from my edits for the first time you probably didn't notice that I simply made "collectivization" into a separate section a bit lower down the text. This piece missing it its old place may look like vandalism indeed, but it wasn't. Mikkalai 20:40, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

... or did you have something else in mind? Then you should have transferred my resectioning, with quite reasonable references to "main article"s, rather than reverting in one fell swoop. Mikkalai 20:44, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Sorry about that I did not see the industrialization and collectivization split into the two sections like that. TDC 20:49, May 5, 2004 (UTC)

Mikkalai was the one who had changed the headings yesterday. I liked it better before, but it doesn't matter much to me either way—the old headings, Mikkalai's headings, the new headings I had inserted yesterday, whatever. I'm just concerned with the constant disappearance of large chunks of text first posted many months ago. 172 17:53, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

TDC,

You are making far too many sweeping changes to an article that has stayed largely intact for many months at once. This is a recipe for an edit war stemming from confusion rather than real, concrete disagreements.

Once again, if you want better luck getting other users to follow what's going on, you can go with the temp page route. You made a great deal of progress when you started working on a temp page/proposed alternative on Hugo Chavez. How about doing it again? I'll get you started by creating TDC/History of the Soviet Union (1927-1953). I'll first post the old version of the article and then your version so that people are able to compare the differences between the two versions on your own page. 172 18:06, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. TDC 18:07, May 6, 2004 (UTC)

You can compare the differences between the two versions here (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User:TDC/History_of_the_Soviet_Union_(1927-1953)&diff=0&oldid=3474469). 172 18:11, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

172, you wrote you didn't like my headings. Let me explain. My main contribution recently into the USSR history is removing duplications and consolidation of big chunks of history. I am collecting pieces from several articles that often say the same but with different words and different mistakes. For example, the topic of "USSR collectivization" was being covered in four articles. The sole purpose of my resectioning was for the possibility of natural insertions of Main article: [whatever] Mikkalai 19:05, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

I don't mind your headings. Actually, I preferred your version of the headings. But I'm worried that American users in particular will misinterpret them. For example, people will see "great" changes and they'll likely read something value-laden in the word "great," as opposed to "great" in magnitude. 172 22:50, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

---

here (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User:TDC/History_of_the_Soviet_Union_(1927-1953)&diff=0&oldid=3474469)

See the talk page for a full explanation of my changes. TDC 19:12, May 6, 2004 (UTC)

---

'Espionage' section

IMO 'USSR Espionage' is a totally separate thread of the history that deserves its own separate article, with its own timeline. There is much more to say (and already said in wikipedia) on the issue. The already existing info must be consolidated and cross-referenced. ...And other countries had their spies too. A *HUGE* layer of life here. Mikkalai 19:17, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

I think it should have its own section as well because of the large scope and relative ignorance that most people have about is. Aside from this, I believe that the sheer scale (and once again, I cannot understate just how large in scale it was) and original intent of pre-cold war espionage had a ===HUGE=== impact on the way the post war years unfolded. The Soviets never had the kind access into the US as they did during the 2nd WW.

Since Wiki articles do have a good deal of overlapping info, it should also be included in this one as well, even if my original contribution is abridged somewhat. TDC 14:08, May 7, 2004 (UTC)

In all the brief encyclopedic write-ups on the Soviet Union with which I'm familiar, the topic of espionage and the Soviet bomb gets only a couple of sentences to a single paragraph, mostly as backgrounding, when the Soviets' first testing of an atomic bomb in September 1949 comes up.

Perhaps TDC's content can be moved to Russia and weapons of mass destruction, where it can form a new section on the development of the Soviet atomic weapons program. When the explosion of the first Soviet nuclear weapon comes up, which was frightening to the U.S. because it was simultaneous with the fall of China (this ought to be mentioned as well), we could add this note in this article if TDC agrees to this move: (see Development of the Soviet atomic bomb). 172 20:47, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

I am not opposed to it going there, but there is a great deal of duplication in Wikipedia, and that is a good thing for tying loosely related topics together. In this articles current form, it places almost all the blame on the US for the Cold War, when that just is not fair. How can one say that considering the spike in Soviet espionage during WWII and the areas of focus, that Stalin was not preparing for a post war conflict? TDC 22:28, May 7, 2004 (UTC)

Soviet industrial espionage is very rich topic, and I reiterate, deserves a separate article. TDC's may be a section in it. Another one is e.g., Farewell Dossier. Computer technology: ES EVM. I can dig some official info (article in Communications of the ACM) on the analysis of microchips recovered from Soviet space rockets. Mikkalai 21:06, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

Any article on USSR may have a subsection on espionage, if it is relevant there, in the form of an appropriate summary, and with reference the the main Soviet espinonage article, to avoid duplications and diverging. Mikkalai 21:10, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

What about US espionnage and the CIA tunnel in Berlin ? Ericd 22:14, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

Write it if you want it, but this particular article is about the Soviet Union, not the US or the CIA.

The ammount of material on this site pertaining to the CIA is quite large and without any detail about KGB activities seems grossly out of context. That is why I am writing a 5 part series of articles, quite similar to this one, on KGB and NKVD activities during the 20th cenury.

It should provide some balance to the grossly unfair anti-CIA propaganda, but I encourage everyone to participate in it.TDC 22:24, May 7, 2004 (UTC)

Where? Mikkalai 22:27, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

It should be up in a week or two, I have to research it in depth first. Ed Poor is going to do some work on it when it goes up as well. TDC 22:28, May 7, 2004 (UTC)

The question was not 'when', but 'where'. Shall I click New pages every hour for "a week or two" :-)? Mikkalai 22:46, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

Neutrality's preposed compromise between VeryVerily and 172

"In response, the United States sustained a massive anticommunist ideological offensive. How the efforts to contain communism through aggressive diplomacy and interventionist policies varies. Some maintain that Washington brandished its role as the leader of the "free world" at least as effectively as the Moscow brandished its position as the leader of the "progressive" and "anti-imperialist" camp; others believe that the United States was meddling in other nation's internal affairs under the banner of "freedom," "democracy," and "human rights." Still others have some combination of these two views." Neutrality 22:08, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

There is no real contradiction between the two, so the "compromise" should be the merge, rather than the opposition. Mikkalai 22:46, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

"Others believe": there is nothing to "believe": when US congress approves money for dissidents in a country it is meddling big time. Imagine a Belarus sheds some pitiful money for the American rat race, which is accepted by, say, <put your favorite runner-up here>. Mikkalai 22:51, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

And don'd forget $$ Soviet Union pumped into U.S. Commies. Mikkalai 22:51, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

"Freedom," "democracy," and "human rights" are in quotation marks, along with "progressive" and "anti-imperialist." We are not supposed to give more creedence to the propaganda of one side over the other. 172 22:54, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

Why not be more specific? Perhaps it could be discussed how in some locations (Western Europe, Japan) the US promoted liberal democracy as a bulwark against communism, while in others (Portugal, Turkey, South Korea, and so forth) it was content to back anti-communist dictatorships? john k 23:34, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

This article about SU, not US, hence one has to be concise when speaking of US. Mikkalai 23:50, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

I'd also suggest that we should do as much as possible to avoid "scare quotes." john k 23:35, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

These aren't really scare quotes. In the context of where this paragraph is situated in the article, it's in reference to the ideological offensive that both superpowers launched following the unveiling of the containment doctrine. It's referencing the ways both blocs characterized themselves. 172 23:49, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

IMO the "scare quotes" are relevant as they stand here: they say exactly what is intended: during the cold war some cliches were used as a weapon of demagogy (by both sides), rather than in their direct meaning. Mikkalai 23:50, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

I must say the "proposed" version does look rather like a censored version of 172's work with all things disliked by American conservatives cut out. G-Man 22:58, 22 May 2004 (UTC)

That's because you share 172's ideological perspective. To others "172's work" looks almost like propaganda. Let's work towards language all can agree on. VV 23:33, 22 May 2004 (UTC)

Hmmm, yes I agree it is perhaps unconciously written from a left-wing perspective and may perhaps need some compromises. But I dont think cutting out large chunks is the answer, that smacks of censorship to me. A lot of the deletions in the 'alternative' version seem to be ideologically driven more than anything else. G-Man 23:54, 22 May 2004 (UTC)

I don't think I cut out anything of substance, or indeed much at all. I did take out the list of buzzwords, an unhelpful detail. And I replaced, e.g., a loaded term like "advance its will" with "aggressive diplomacy", which I think is a substantial improvement. (His text implies/states that "freedom" et al. was a cover for other ambitions.) This is not anything close to "censorship". VV 00:03, 23 May 2004 (UTC)

TDC is quite proud of his beliefs, and he sticks to them. But I disagree that his version is working toward imposing a form of conservative U.S. ideological censorship. On Hugo Chavez, TDC and I put up his proposed alternative, and eventually TDC was able to work out a version along with other users synthesizing his proposed alternative and the current article. The result was a broader perspective, not a more narrow one. Chavez did not come out looking like either a "good guy" or a "bad guy," but as a president of Venezula interested in consolidating his power, which he is. TDC argued his points very effectively and was reasonable with the other users, who in sum along with him chose to adapt, adopt, or reject each of his individual proposals.

He'll be coming back soon [1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:172&diff=3663218&oldid=3660904), and I'll be more than willing to discuss these changes with him. TDC is out to change the content of articles, and I can work with him. VeryVerily, in contrast, just has axes to grind against individual users, namely me in particular. 172 04:21, 23 May 2004 (UTC)

Industrialization statistics

Where, exactly, did the statistics in the "Industrialization in practice" section (e.g. Pig iron output ... rose from 3.3 million to 10 million tons per year)? I am writing a research paper and would like to include the source of which those statistics came from in my research. Thanks!

Recent edits

Genyo:

More recent Soviet specialists have called into question what they see as the excessive voluntarism of Conquest's thesis and Ukrainian émigré historians, which you seem to be articulating in your edits.

Now it is essentially a matter of consensus that the famine in the Ukraine was an outgrowth of collectivization more than anything else-- that is a requisite for development strategy of the first Five Year Plan, allowing the state to control the distribution of grain, and garner a cheap and steady supply. The following is a list of leading sources in this area of study:

Getty's book review of Conquest's Harvest of Sorrow is helpful:

• Getty, "Starving the Ukraine: Review of Harvest of Sorrow: Soviet Collectivization and the Terror-famine, by Robert Conquest", London Review of Books, 7 January, 1987.

Could you cite some concensus among Ukrainian historians, because if such a consensus exists, I am unaware of it! Genyo 01:57, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you're referring to. There is a question as to what extent the famine was deliberate and meant to crush the support of the Ukrainian nationalists. Western Soviet specialists see the famine as essentially an outgrowth of collectivization and Stalinist industrialization strategies. 172 02:04, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Stephen Cohen, Gabor Rittersporn, Lynne Viola, Shiela Fitzpatrick, Moise Lewin, and Robert Dallin are also leading sources. Book reviews and relevant ISBN numbers are easy to find online. 172 01:37, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

172,

Conquest provided a scholarly alternative to the modern orthodoxy you cite. You might want to check the NY Times Book Review on him--amazingly positive, expecially in light of the fiasco of their own papers inaccurate fradulent coverage of the problem as it occurred.

Stalin's animus toward Ukrainians, as well as the Ukrainian nationalist problem in the Soviet Union are well documented by Orest Subtelny, in a book acclaimed by World Affairs Report as the best history of Ukraine in English.

I you've found that Conquest found subsequent analysis convincing, let me know. I'd still be interested in any list of scholars of Ukrainian history that support your thesis.

Genyo 15:19, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I already gave you a list of scholars who have done more recent work. Please see above. 172 17:42, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Let me re-word my request in light of the inaccuracy of your last request.

Could you cite some concensus among historians who specialize in Ukraine, because if such a consensus exists, I am unaware of it!

Thank you for your careful reading!

Genyo 02:15, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The historians I listed above do specialize in Ukraine. 172 02:48, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

AH! I do intend to check them out! Genyo 22:59, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

172, at least one "scholar" on your list is a known Soviet revisionist. Gabor Rittersporn has stated that Stalin's fears of conspiracy during the Great Terror "were not groundless" and that most of the people killed during the purges were "elites." The numbers and pathology behind the terror-famine are well accepted at this point. Conquest is not the only one, but he is certainly the most respected. Marlowe 21:24, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I don't agree with all of Rittersporn's work, but you're not characterizing Rittersporn but rather a straw man. No one seriously denies that the terror-famine happened; nor can anyone seriously deny its horrendous nature. The question is to what extent it was deliberate or whether it was more of an outcome of collectivization. 172 21:33, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Then I suppose that this argument depends on whose scholarship one is willing to stand behind. Rittersporn's or Conquest's. I accept the scholarship of Conquest and you accept the scholarship of Rittersporn. Maybe for the sake of the article, insert both points of view with references to each work.Marlowe 15:46, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Mr. Marlowe, your position sounds reasonable! Genyo 04:21, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Katyn massacre at wrong time

This article places the Katyn massacre in 1944-5, during the Soviet advance into Nazi-held territory. It happened in 1939 or 40, after the Soviet takeover of eastern Poland. The Katyn massacre page says it right.

Thank you very much for pointing this out, I've fixed it now. Everyking 00:35, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)