Talk:History of Korea (1900-1950)
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A mess of an article that needs to be rewritten.
Material in here should be branched off to separate articles.
It's impossible to talk about a country invaded by a nation which practiced genocide, and then was liberated, and then was divided in under 1000 words. Imagine doing a 1000 word article on the USA between 1900 and 1950 - ??!!!!
- Hey, it can be done, just look at the Roman Empire article. That entity existed for centuries, with its own highs and lows. Instead of complaining, why don't you just help out. --Humble Guy 00:17, May 12, 2005 (UTC)
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I have moved the article because Japan did not only have one colony. However, is there a need for this article (on top of what is in the article Korea). Kokiri 20:50, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- Seems quite a few articles link here. So I have brought over the material from History of Korea and added a link there. Kokiri 11:52, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I want to check the writings of the followings.
A declaration of independence was read in Seoul. It is estimated that 2 million people took part in these rallies. This peaceful protest was brutally suppressed by the colonial rulers: an estimated 47,000 were arrested, 7,500 killed and 16,000 wounded.
- With japanese records, it was peaceful at first, but it turned into violent uprising. The number written here is written in Koreann book,but in Japanese recods, 8437 were arrested and it was over occupancy load limit of prisons. 553 killed and 1409 wounded. Origin of Korean writing would be rely on the book written by Provisional Government of the Republic of Korea. The book is evaluated "Rumors based history book to cheer Koreans" in Japan. At least, numbers from both country should be written.
Koreans were barred from engaging in similar activities. Many farmers were stripped of their land after failing or refusing to register their ownership with the colonial rulers. Joint ownership as it was common in Korea at the time was not recognized by Japan.
- Before Japanese annexation, Ther was a landowner-tenant relations and 77% farmers had no ownership. Joint ownership was not the majority. But, there was not reliable land ownership records, and it's ground rent management was careless. Japanese documentation about land ownership clearly divided Korean into landowner-tenant relations, as a result. And even after the documentation, more than 99% of land-owner was Korean, not Japanese. This process didn't come from "failing/refusing to register".
The oppression of the people and the exploitation of Korea's resources continued, although using different methods. Japan's speedy development as a capitalist society was only possible at the expense of Korean people, although as a by-product of the colonization Korea was industrialized.
- What's the meaning of "exploitation of Korea's resources" means? Tax rate was same as japanese, about 40% of income. There are records that korean company sold Korean Rice to Japan, and got so much money. Japanese government had to invest so much money, and got bad deficit every year. Japanese farmers tried to stop importing rice from Korea to keep rice price in Japan, but failed for free-trade (Without WTO decision :P) ). Especially, after 3.1, There was a close collaboration between Korean capitalist and Japanese goverbment. The Korean capitalists became Korean family-run conglomerates after WW2. Most poverty of farmers came from interest on a debt. See the interest. Korean Landowner loan interest at the point was over 30% per year. On the contrary, Japanese company (http://www.geocities.jp/nakanolib/hou/hm41-63.htm) interest was 6%(1935)-8%(1933). Most Korean rent money from Korean landowner. It suggests, "exploitation by Korean landowner". Then, could you tell me the meaning of "expense of Korean people"? Average expectation of life in Koreawas 26 years at the beginning of japanese annexation, but it increased up to 42 years at 1945. Population of Korean people increased about twice from 1910 to 1945. (wx. http://www.ier.hit-u.ac.jp/COE/Japanese/online_data/korea/k0-2.htm sorry, written in Japanese and limited to 1915-1940). Does Increasing population /Increasing lifetime mean "expense of Korean people"?
After the outbreaks of the Sino-Japanese War in 1937 and World War II Japan attempted to wipe out Korea as a nation. Worship at Japanese Shinto shrines was made compulsory. The school curriculum was radically modified to reflect the changed policies. Korean people were given an opportunity to adopt Japanese names whilst the celebration of Korean culture was suppressed. Newspapers were prohibited from publishing in Korean and the study of Korean history was banned at university.
- This is 1940 Happy New Year newspaper in Korea. Can you read Hangul with Kanji?
The newspaper company is http://english.chosun.com/ Could you show your source about "prohibition"? -Poo-T 21 May 2004
- http://countrystudies.us/south-korea/73.htm. Korean language newspapers were banned in 1941, after your so-called counter-example. This source was taken from books written by Federal Research Division of the Library of Congress as part of the Country Studies/Area Handbook Series sponsored by the U.S. Department of the Army between 1986 and 1998, hardly a Korean nationalist site. -AJ 22 Oct 2004
- In 1941, private newspaper ( Japanese or Korean ) was prohibitted in Korea for WW2. Only official newspaper was permitted, and it was still published with Hangul. You can find the "official newspaper", if you live in Korea. So, it depends on the definition of "newspaper". -Poo-T 6 Nov 2004 //15 Nov 2004
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Unbelievable
This is unbelievable and utterly disputable - and of course no one answers his questions. I can only imagine how offended Poo-T feels as a Japanese person. The points he makes reveal blatant and deliberate twisting of the truth (or rather utter lies) in the article. This must be rewritten or removed ASAP.
This article needs to be revised in several ways- First of all, it glosses over many of Japan's atrocities in Korea. It also fails to mention Korean records in the Independence Movement section. It fails to describe the nature of the protests as well, since it makes no mention of whether the protests were peaceful or violent. In addition, I would like it if people like Poo-T kept out of this article. First of all, the tax rate for Koreans was far higher than that of the Japanese people, since it was somewhere around 65%: Poo-T claims that the tax rate was same for both Koreans and the Japanese (40%). Plus, he utterly lies about the fact that Japanese farmers suffered due to Korean agricultural imports, becuase it was actually the Koreans who went bankrupt due to cheap Japanese rice. He also says that the Japanese invested in Korea but kept getting a bad deficit. Duhhh! It's because of the high expenses of hiring officers and soldiers in order to control Koreans.
- I agree that this article could still do with some work, but, to be fair, it DOES explain that the Samil movement was peaceful, it DOES explain that Japan attempted to eliminate Korea and absorb it into Japan, and it DOES explain that Korea was made more economically dependent on Japan. It is quite unacceptable to suggest that Poo-T should stay out of this article - there are more than two sides to any issue. It would be ideal if this article reflects all sides and perspectives of Japanese rule in Korea. There seems to be a number of Korean contributors who would like this article to be a diatribe against Japan, and an equally large number of contributors sympathetic to Japan who want this article to only show the positive aspects. Hopefully consensus can be reached. --Ce garcon 05:15, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- OK. I'll check my writings with you saying. Tax comparison would be not so easy within a little page. ( 60% seems average farm rent with Korean landowner, as far as I know ) So, now focus on agriculture. I hope you can read Hangul. See http://www.ddanzi.com/ddanziilbo/46/46so_3002-1.html That text is discussing about the rice import/export between Korea and Japan. At least, Korean history textbook describes 'Rice was carried from Korea to Japan'. That means, 'Cheap Japanese rice caused bankruptcy in Korea' is impossible. Isn't it? The cost of officeres was 4% before 3.1 and Max 10% after 3.1 for the local government finance. Payment for soldier didn't belong to local government finance. It seems illogical to say, all red inks came from officers/soldiers. Taiwan, another land ruled by Japan struggled against Japan more than Korea. Both needed so much investment fot railway, electric power, water line, schools, and so on. But Taiwan climbed into the black within 10 years. One of the reason is, 'Taiwan had it's own money economy system, but Korea didn't(barter economy)'. So the modernization cost/time of Korea was more expensive. --Poo-T 6 Nov 2004
"I can only imagine how offended Poo-T feels as a Japanese person." What??? When I read the history for this page, it said that Poo-T was the one who started the "Unbelievable" section??
True, Korean rice was exported to Japan. Japanese forced Korean farmers to sell nearly all rice to Japan at ridiculously low prices. Then, when Korean farmers had no more rice, Japanese re-exported rice to Koreans at cruelly high prices. True, Japanese introduced Western technology to Korea, but they were solely for Japanese people in Korea, NEVER for Koreans. Not only did Koreans not have any kind of access to newly introduced technology, but also they lost previledges that they had previously had. Lastly, there were massacres on Koreans by Japanese people. Although Japanese wanted to keep it secret, Westerners in Korea, such as Americans and Dutches, witnessed massacres done to Koreans and reported to the western news papers. Did you know that almost million Korean women were sent to Japanese troops to be "amusements" for Japanese soldiers? Most historians in Asia, US, and Europe agree that Japanese did terrible things on Korean, Chinese, and other Asian women. Some of these women have survived and are still protesting in the streets to this very day.
- #1 This section was crearted by someone who want to take me(Poo-T) out from the page'. So the title is so emotional. #2 'sell nearly all rice to Japan at ridiculously low prices. Then, when Korean farmers had no more rice, Japanese re-exported rice to Koreans at cruelly high prices.' Reference please. 'export rice by ship and import to Korea again'? It sounds so foolish, funny.Who want to use so expensive way to establish a corner in the rice market? Why not buy and stock in Korea? #3 'NEVER for Koreans.'? I recommend you to learn more about Korean capitalists in that age. For Ex. Samsung. The founder of Samsung was a landowner, and got so much money by exporting rice to Japan. Of course, you can say he was Japanese, as his nationality was Japanese before 1948 :P) #4 'there were massacres on Koreans by Japanese people. Although Japanese wanted to keep it secret Westerners in Korea, such as Americans and Dutches, witnessed massacres done to Koreans and reported to the western news papers.' Then, there must be so many references about "the massacres". Could you show me the references? #5 Oh, I didn't know The number of prostitute was 1 million!! The numbers estimated I know are, 0.05-0.2 million, and 20% came from Korean peninsula/40% came from Japan islands. This is not the place to discuss about "comfort woman", but could you show a refernce you trust on? Poo-T 18:25, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
This page needs to be radically revised
This article is not written from a NPOV and should be changed.
Also, the title "Japanese Colonial Period (Korea)" is not appropriate, as a distinction needs to be made between the Japanese islands and the Korean peninsula which officially formed a single political entity, and Chinese/South-East Asian parts of the Japanese empire.
Given that Korea was not officially a colony of Japan and that the Japanese made an effort during their rule of Japan to end Korea's existence as a nation and to add it to Japan proper, is it appropriate to describe Korea as having been a colony? An appropriate analogy is the former United Kingdon of Great Britain and Ireland, in this case it would not have been appropriate to describe Ireland as a 'colony" of Englands', as, despite whatever policies that they implimented in Ireland which could be described as "colonial" in nature, they officially had the same st-----------------------------265001916915724 Content-Disposition: form-data; name="wpTextbox1"
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I have moved the article because Japan did not only have one colony. However, is there a need for this article (on top of what is in the article Korea). Kokiri 20:50, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- Seems quite a few articles link here. So I have brought over the material from History of Korea and added a link there. Kokiri 11:52, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I want to check the writings of the followings.
A declaration of independence was read in Seoul. It is estimated that 2 million people took part in these rallies. This peaceful protest was brutally suppressed by the colonial rulers: an estimated 47,000 were arrested, 7,500 killed and 16,000 wounded.
- With japanese records, it was peaceful at first, but it turned into violent uprising. The number written here is written in Koreann book,but in Japanese recods, 8437 were arrested and it was over occupancy load limit of prisons. 553 killed and 1409 wounded. Origin of Korean writing would be rely on the book written by Provisional Government of the Republic of Korea. The book is evaluated "Rumors based history book to cheer Koreans" in Japan. At least, numbers from both country should be written.
Koreans were barred from engaging in similar activities. Many farmers were stripped of their land after failing or refusing to register their ownership with the colonial rulers. Joint ownership as it was common in Korea at the time was not recognized by Japan.
- Before Japanese annexation, Ther was a landowner-tenant relations and 77% farmers had no ownership. Joint ownership was not the majority. But, there was not reliable land ownership records, and it's ground rent management was careless. Japanese documentation about land ownership clearly divided Korean into landowner-tenant relations, as a result. And even after the documentation, more than 99% of land-owner was Korean, not Japanese. This process didn't come from "failing/refusing to register".
The oppression of the people and the exploitation of Korea's resources continued, although using different methods. Japan's speedy development as a capitalist society was only possible at the expense of Korean people, although as a by-product of the colonization Korea was industrialized.
- What's the meaning of "exploitation of Korea's resources" means? Tax rate was same as japanese, about 40% of income. There are records that korean company sold Korean Rice to Japan, and got so much money. Japanese government had to invest so much money, and got bad deficit every year. Japanese farmers tried to stop importing rice from Korea to keep rice price in Japan, but failed for free-trade (Without WTO decision :P) ). Especially, after 3.1, There was a close collaboration between Korean capitalist and Japanese goverbment. The Korean capitalists became Korean family-run conglomerates after WW2. Most poverty of farmers came from interest on a debt. See the interest. Korean Landowner loan interest at the point was over 30% per year. On the contrary, Japanese company (http://www.geocities.jp/nakanolib/hou/hm41-63.htm) interest was 6%(1935)-8%(1933). Most Korean rent money from Korean landowner. It suggests, "exploitation by Korean landowner". Then, could you tell me the meaning of "expense of Korean people"? Average expectation of life in Koreawas 26 years at the beginning of japanese annexation, but it increased up to 42 years at 1945. Population of Korean people increased about twice from 1910 to 1945. (wx. http://www.ier.hit-u.ac.jp/COE/Japanese/online_data/korea/k0-2.htm sorry, written in Japanese and limited to 1915-1940). Does Increasing population /Increasing lifetime mean "expense of Korean people"?
After the outbreaks of the Sino-Japanese War in 1937 and World War II Japan attempted to wipe out Korea as a nation. Worship at Japanese Shinto shrines was made compulsory. The school curriculum was radically modified to reflect the changed policies. Korean people were given an opportunity to adopt Japanese names whilst the celebration of Korean culture was suppressed. Newspapers were prohibited from publishing in Korean and the study of Korean history was banned at university.
- This is 1940 Happy New Year newspaper in Korea. Can you read Hangul with Kanji? The newspaper company is http://english.chosun.com/ Could you show your source about "prohibition"? -Poo-T 21 May 2004
- http://countrystudies.us/south-korea/73.htm. Korean language newspapers were banned in 1941, after your so-called counter-example. This source was taken from books written by Federal Research Division of the Library of Congress as part of the Country Studies/Area Handbook Series sponsored by the U.S. Department of the Army between 1986 and 1998, hardly a Korean nationalist site. -AJ 22 Oct 2004
- In 1941, private newspaper ( Japanese or Korean ) was prohibitted in Korea for WW2. Only official newspaper was permitted, and it was still published with Hangul. You can find the "official newspaper", if you live in Korea. So, it depends on the definition of "newspaper". -Poo-T 6 Nov 2004 //15 Nov 2004
Unbelievable
This is unbelievable and utterly disputable - and of course no one answers his questions. I can only imagine how offended Poo-T feels as a Japanese person. The points he makes reveal blatant and deliberate twisting of the truth (or rather utter lies) in the article. This must be rewritten or removed ASAP.
This article needs to be revised in several ways- First of all, it glosses over many of Japan's atrocities in Korea. It also fails to mention Korean records in the Independence Movement section. It fails to describe the nature of the protests as well, since it makes no mention of whether the protests were peaceful or violent. In addition, I would like it if people like Poo-T kept out of this article. First of all, the tax rate for Koreans was far higher than that of the Japanese people, since it was somewhere around 65%: Poo-T claims that the tax rate was same for both Koreans and the Japanese (40%). Plus, he utterly lies about the fact that Japanese farmers suffered due to Korean agricultural imports, becuase it was actually the Koreans who went bankrupt due to cheap Japanese rice. He also says that the Japanese invested in Korea but kept getting a bad deficit. Duhhh! It's because of the high expenses of hiring officers and soldiers in order to control Koreans.
- I agree that this article could still do with some work, but, to be fair, it DOES explain that the Samil movement was peaceful, it DOES explain that Japan attempted to eliminate Korea and absorb it into Japan, and it DOES explain that Korea was made more economically dependent on Japan. It is quite unacceptable to suggest that Poo-T should stay out of this article - there are more than two sides to any issue. It would be ideal if this article reflects all sides and perspectives of Japanese rule in Korea. There seems to be a number of Korean contributors who would like this article to be a diatribe against Japan, and an equally large number of contributors sympathetic to Japan who want this article to only show the positive aspects. Hopefully consensus can be reached. --Ce garcon 05:15, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- OK. I'll check my writings with you saying. Tax comparison would be not so easy within a little page. ( 60% seems average farm rent with Korean landowner, as far as I know ) So, now focus on agriculture. I hope you can read Hangul. See http://www.ddanzi.com/ddanziilbo/46/46so_3002-1.html That text is discussing about the rice import/export between Korea and Japan. At least, Korean history textbook describes 'Rice was carried from Korea to Japan'. That means, 'Cheap Japanese rice caused bankruptcy in Korea' is impossible. Isn't it? The cost of officeres was 4% before 3.1 and Max 10% after 3.1 for the local government finance. Payment for soldier didn't belong to local government finance. It seems illogical to say, all red inks came from officers/soldiers. Taiwan, another land ruled by Japan struggled against Japan more than Korea. Both needed so much investment fot railway, electric power, water line, schools, and so on. But Taiwan climbed into the black within 10 years. One of the reason is, 'Taiwan had it's own money economy system, but Korea didn't(barter economy)'. So the modernization cost/time of Korea was more expensive. --Poo-T 6 Nov 2004
"I can only imagine how offended Poo-T feels as a Japanese person." What??? When I read the history for this page, it said that Poo-T was the one who started the "Unbelievable" section??
True, Korean rice was exported to Japan. Japanese forced Korean farmers to sell nearly all rice to Japan at ridiculously low prices. Then, when Korean farmers had no more rice, Japanese re-exported rice to Koreans at cruelly high prices. True, Japanese introduced Western technology to Korea, but they were solely for Japanese people in Korea, NEVER for Koreans. Not only did Koreans not have any kind of access to newly introduced technology, but also they lost previledges that they had previously had. Lastly, there were massacres on Koreans by Japanese people. Although Japanese wanted to keep it secret, Westerners in Korea, such as Americans and Dutches, witnessed massacres done to Koreans and reported to the western news papers. Did you know that almost million Korean women were sent to Japanese troops to be "amusements" for Japanese soldiers? Most historians in Asia, US, and Europe agree that Japanese did terrible things on Korean, Chinese, and other Asian women. Some of these women have survived and are still protesting in the streets to this very day.
- #1 This section was crearted by someone who want to take me(Poo-T) out from the page'. So the title is so emotional. #2 'sell nearly all rice to Japan at ridiculously low prices. Then, when Korean farmers had no more rice, Japanese re-exported rice to Koreans at cruelly high prices.' Reference please. 'export rice by ship and import to Korea again'? It sounds so foolish, funny.Who want to use so expensive way to establish a corner in the rice market? Why not buy and stock in Korea? #3 'NEVER for Koreans.'? I recommend you to learn more about Korean capitalists in that age. For Ex. Samsung. The founder of Samsung was a landowner, and got so much money by exporting rice to Japan. Of course, you can say he was Japanese, as his nationality was Japanese before 1948 :P) #4 'there were massacres on Koreans by Japanese people. Although Japanese wanted to keep it secret Westerners in Korea, such as Americans and Dutches, witnessed massacres done to Koreans and reported to the western news papers.' Then, there must be so many references about "the massacres". Could you show me the references? #5 Oh, I didn't know The number of prostitute was 1 million!! The numbers estimated I know are, 0.05-0.2 million, and 20% came from Korean peninsula/40% came from Japan islands. This is not the place to discuss about "comfort woman", but could you show a refernce you trust on? Poo-T 18:25, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
This page needs to be radically revised
This article is not written from a NPOV and should be changed.
Also, the title "Japanese Colonial Period (Korea)" is not appropriate, as a distinction needs
Suggestions from a neutral
I am not familiar with the matter, but I have ideas, that may be acceptable to all camps involved.
- First, move this article to Korean History from 1900-1950, or an article name that has the same effect, any article name will do as long at it refers to the history of Korea in the 1st half of the 20th century. Naming articles according to time, (and I really mean time literally) is a proven trusted method that is the safest way to NPOV an article title.
- Second, for NPOV purposes in the content itself, reorganize the article into 3 major parts. The three will correspond to the history of the said period according to the Korean POV, the Japanese POV, and other POVs. History is rarely NPOV anyway, just look at the winners of wars for example, who write history according to the winner's POV. There are historical events that are not given much importance, even recognition, by either Japanese or Korean in each other's historical accounts. It is not for us to interpret and blur the lines. Japanese textbooks and Korean textbooks POVs are quite different on the matter. We cannot mix and match the accounts. Thus, integrating those two views will be nearly impossible for us. So reorganize it already, this is the best compromise for all, and for the NPOV. --Humble Guy 12:33, May 11, 2005 (UTC)
Article moved + few edits to start cleanup
As you can see, I already moved the article. The article title is NPOV for sure. Edited the first 2 paragraphs for a start, but the previous contributors should be the ones to lead the cleanup, but if you guys still need my help, just visit my talk page --Humble Guy 13:31, May 11, 2005 (UTC)
Important POV raised
There have been several edits in the article done by an unknown user that I can not independently verify, and I am hesistant to revert. But my gut tells me the article is becoming more anti-Japan, which is contrary to NPOV. Will someone please independently verify the new contributions? And if the contributions are true, relevant and necessary to the article, can someone also fix the text to balance the POV so that it won't look too anti-japanese (but it should be fair to the korean side too)? Finally, this page is in cleanup, not a stub, so I suggest to fix the current text first, before adding and adding and addingmore text. talk page --Humble Guy 10:59, May 16, 2005 (UTC)
Of course, people who tend to make numerous anonymous edits like this rarely tend to check talk pages for the article they're editing, nor are they likely to cite independant, verifiable, or credible sources. (One of my faviorite edits of all time is by 'poofys', who made the 'Victims - pro-Japanese elements taken out for neutral POV' edit and then went on to accuse Japan of genocide in his next edit, all without crediting any source.) A good source for this period is the country study here [1] (http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/krtoc.html), which is about as close to NPOV as anyone gets on this issue, the Federal Research Division being a fairly neutral source. Personally, I do not trust any (well, that's an exaggeratrion, I do trust some, just not the ones most often found on the Internet) studies done in Korea or Japan on the issue, as they tend to be done by scholars attempting to advance ultra-nationalist agendas. If you really want to try to NPOV the article, my best suggestion would be to look through the history of the article for the most pro-Japanese edit, compare with the current very anti-Japanese edit, and either merge or delete any contradicting statements. Of course, if you go the route of deletion, you'll probably end up with an article like: "The Korean Peninsula was ruled and/or occupied by Japan from its formal annexation in 1910 until the end of World War 2 in 1945." --Zonath 01:33, May 18, 2005 (UTC)
- Oh, I see, that is going to take a significant amount of time, but I'll try. Thanks. I might be done by monday hopefully --Humble Guy 09:31, May 19, 2005 (UTC)
- Never mind, I better do some real research on this on my spare time, be back after quite some time. --Humble Guy 09:46, May 19, 2005 (UTC)
- I researched a bit. I am not in the position to fix this. How in the world will this thing be cleaned up? --Humble Guy 15:06, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)
- Never mind, I better do some real research on this on my spare time, be back after quite some time. --Humble Guy 09:46, May 19, 2005 (UTC)