Talk:History of Ireland
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What did the Romans ever do for us?
Shouldn't there be something about the Romans? I believe there is some archeological evidence that they did make it to the island after all? User:JCWF
- I have linked this to Hibernia where I wrote a fuller discussion of potential Roman influence in Ireland. --Dumbo1 16:12, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Could do better!
The account of Irish history in the 19th and 20th century on this page is fundamentally flawed, so much so if repeated in a third level exam on Irish history, it might just about get a pass grade! I don't have time to do corrections right now; I'll do a re-write when I get the chance. (Yet another Irish history page I'm having to correct for fundamental errors! I've spent much of the last three weeks correcting and writing accurate accounts in place of garbage.)
Errors in this piece include:
- 1.5 million people did not die in the Great Famine, Approximately 0.5 million did. The re-structuring of Irish society and landholdings, not to mention the disappearance of the entire cottier class, produced mass emigration that is thought to approximate to that higher number, but that was over decades.
- There is no such thing as the Home Rule Party - It went by two names - Irish Parliamentary Party or (earlier) the Home Rule League.
- There was no link, implicit let alone explicit, between the above party at official level and the Fenians.
- The Home Rule League did not seek Irish independence. It sought Home Rule, within Ireland becoming a self-governing region of the United Kingdom.
- Public opinion did not turn towards Sinn Féin (which in 1916 anyway was a monarchist, not a republican party) after the executions. It waged an inconclusive battle with the IIP until the Conscription Crisis of 1918 when finally and decisively a switch occured.
- Sinn Féin did not decisively win the 1918 general election. It won most seats due to the absence of contests. Recent studies based on contested electoral battles in the period 1917-1919 put SF support at between 45-50%, impressive but well below the mythical 75-90% that has often been claimed;
- The Irish civil war was not fought on partition. In fact it was hardly mentioned in the Dáil debates on the Treaty, because both sides believed that the Boundary Commission was going to deliver Northern Ireland to the south within a few years anyhow. It was fought on the Crown and Oath of Allegiance.
- The 1921 Anglo-Irish Treaty didn't partition Ireland. The Better Government of Ireland Act, 1920 did. Northern Ireland opted out of the Free State, as the Treaty agreed it could, so triggering off the creation of the Boundary Commission to decide on boundaries between the two Irish states.
- The Irish Free State and Éire weren't the same. The Irish Free State (in gaelic Saorstát Éireann) was created in 1922 and replaced by Éire through the 1937 constitution.
- The Irish Free State wasn't abolished in 1949; it was abolished in 1937.
- The Irish state regularly uses the name 'Republic of Ireland', contrary to what this article said. (I pulled this ludicrous statement out!) JTD
Re-edit
I've done a major re-edit on the History of Ireland page to remove much of the factual inaccuracies (and boy were there many!) and add in the facts. Hopefully it will be more factually accurate now. JTD
Well done! That's quite an impressive amount of work. We're not supposed to recommend things in the Wikipedia, though. Is there a way of describing the books without saying that they are "excellent" and so on? -- Oliver P. 01:04 Feb 25, 2003 (UTC)
I've seen a lot of books on sites, and I've put references to some. Regarding the recommendations, the trouble with Irish history is that a lot of books come from specific perspectives that an ordinary reader who is approaching the subject from a beginners perspective, mightn't grasp. For example, someone who doesn't know Irish history and started with Coogan's de Valera would lead some people to think that deV was the devil incarnate, in the same way as the film 'Michael Collins' shows him in a very poor light. I don't say the book is right or wrong, just that it is a controversial interpretation. But if they start with Dorothy McCardle's book, they'd think he was the son of God. In addition, time periods of when a book is published have to be borne in mind; MacCardle's book came out in the 1960s, when deV who was president of Ireland was being celebrated as the ambodiment of Irish independence, with figures like Michael Collins and W.T. Cosgrave generally sidelined. Coogan's was written in the 1990s, when a new generation of historians revisited the status of deV, and concluded that he was anything but the hero 'propagandised' (in their view) in the past. Instead figures like Collins and Cosgrave are the ones praised, while deV is seen (rightly or wrongly) as a rather two-faced hypocrite.
I haven't expressed personal preferences, more summarised the general view on how a book is seen. 100% of historians would judge Lord Longford's book on the Treaty as the definitive text that is so competent and all enclusive that no-one has even tried to do a book covering that area since it was first published in the 1930s. Others I've mentioned are the sort of books that historians, when asked 'what is the book you think I should start off with?' would recommend. Books like FSL Lyons' Ireland Since the Famine, Joe Lee's Modernisation of Irish Society , John A. Murphy's Ireland in the Twentieth Century and Connolly's Oxford Companion of Irish History are described by historians as must read texts; they feature of every Irish history reading list in university and are described as the 'elementary starting point' if you want to get an overall 'feel' for Irish history.
Taken together, the list covers pro- and anti-treaty texts, pro- and anti-deV texts, etc and simply points out where the book is coming from and how it is perceived. The list contains only books that are universally regarded, whether one agrees with them or not, as top quality sources that anyone interested in Irish history should look at. But I think it is important to give guidance. I think it is very much NPOV guidance, in so far as it reflects not one point of view, but all points of view. Every historian I know thinks Coogan's book on deV is worth reading; equally all agree it is hostile to him. (Some think it fair, some unfair. I don't express an opinion). Similarly every historian I know says 'see Dorothy McCardle's book'. And in the next sentence they invariably say 'but remember it is written from a pro-deV anti-treaty prospective.' And while everyone I know who has read Norman Davis's The Isles is wowed by it, they are equally struck by its clangers, as it making the losers of the Irish Civil War the winners, which 100% of people describe as wrong. So all the list does is
- give the list of books that academics generally recommend students read;
- point out if such and such a approach history from one point of view, so the reader can remember that fact when looking at that it;
- pointed out which books on the list are regarded by historians in general as 'must see' books;
- which books are universally regarded by everyone as definitive accounts.
I deliberately left off controversial books about which there is no unanimity among historians (and there are plenty that would be praised by one historian and described as bullshit by another). Putting them on would have involved a definite POV. Historians I have mentioned this list to all agree it is fair, balanced and accurate. All I have done is repeat what any wiki reader would find if they walked into any Irish university and asked of the professor 'so where should I start and what should I take into account?' JTD 03:15 Feb 25, 2003 (UTC)
Oh. Okay. -- Oliver P. 21:22 Feb 25, 2003 (UTC)
Irish Nationalist Party
I'm astonished there is no article about the Irish Nationalist Party (under any of its names). Also these huge maps make this article unreadable. They should be turned into thumbnails. Adam 04:28, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
POV
Definite, unabashed POV in this article. C'mon, guys...It sounds OBVIOUSLY POV. At least be subtle...:-) -Penta 05:47, 22 May 2004 (UTC)
History of the United Kingdom
I am trying to improve the History of the United Kingdom page and it would be good if someone with a good knowledge of Irish history (ie. not me!) could make some contributions to it; as the issue of Ireland is of course a very important and controversial one in the history of the formation of the UK and I think needs to take quite a prominent part in the article. It has some background to pre 1801 developments (such as the medieval conquest of Ireland) which could do with some more work but I think it needs more on events after it became part of the UK such as the 'home rule' issue and then the subsequent developments leading up to the formation of the Irish Free State. And then there is of course the issue of Northern Ireland which is not yet included and needs its own section.--Cap 12:38, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Catholic Confederation
I think the Confederates of 1641 need a mention somwhere.
Timeline
Would anyone object to breaking up the timeline into a yearbook format to match ones like timeline of Canadian history and timeline of Indian history. The current pages are already in a similar format, just clumped together into decades. Breaking them up would allow subsections, such as births, deaths, arts, and sports to be added. It would also allow them to be linked from each year page. - SimonP 21:49, Oct 16, 2004 (UTC)
- You might be interested in Ireland in the 20th Century - their are also a number of pages that break of from this that give specific dates after the 1930s to recent times Djegan 13:52, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Population
What are the historical population figures for the island? - Jerryseinfeld 18:39, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Why not neutral?
I have no bias one way or the other, but it looks as if someone has been mucking about with the section concerning Sinn Fein and De Valera. Someone who knows about these things can probably spot the edits.
Inadequacies of current article
- First of all, fair play to those who put this together; fantastic! However, could someone tease out the reality behind what the article calls "First English Involvement c.1166-1536)" because this is in many ways very inaccurate. By that I mean that the leaders of the NORMAN raid (not invasion) were either Welsh (the Lord Rhys) or Norman-Welsh (Fitz Stephen, Fitz Gerald); their followers were mainly Norman, Welsh, Flemish as well as English, Breton, Scots and French. Their King at the time was Henry II, who was born in Anjou, spoke French, lived much of his life in Normandy, Anjou, Maine and other areas in the north of France. Yes, he was King of England, but England, while perhaps being the jewel in his crown, was only part of an empire that stretched between Scotland and Spain. VERY FEW of those who invaded Ireland at the behest of Mac Murrough in the late 1160's would have called themselves English.
- Do you see what I am trying to get across here? "English" involvement in Ireland, as you and I would understand it, was a lot more complicated than most of us realise, and this needs to be addressed.
- Also, the first two sections really could do with a lot more detail. Its there folks, we just need to find the best way to include it. I personally am frequently annoyed that so much of what we see published on Irish history only covers in-depth the era from 1798 onwards. We have SO much more before that!
- Right, that's my say from the high stool! -Anonymous editor
Elizabethan Conquest
I've edited this page to put in mentions of the Elizabethan conquest, the Confederate/Cromwellian period and 1798, which I thought should be there. Someone who knows about this the medieval period and the 19th century should really put in something about the Bruce invasion, the Black Death and Daniel O'Connell, I think. jdorney (14:56, 25 Feb 2005 UTC)
I've got rid of the subsection, Colonial Ireland and integrated it into the rest of the text. While its a good paragraph, it shouldn't be be seen to overshadow the rest of the chapter. Either there's sections for everything or sections for nothing. I've also dispensed with the sentence that clamis Irish historical antagonism towards England comes from the economic situation of the 18th century. While this was an important feature of Irish politics at the time, the antagonism here comes from the exceptionally bloody military conquests of Ireland in the 16th and 17th centuries, and the subsequent disenfranchisment and discrimination against the native population on religious grounds. While economics is certainly a contributory factor, its not the origin of the problem. Jdorney
Celts did not Invade Ireland
"The Celts colonised Ireland in a series of waves between the eighth and first centuries BC."
There is absolutly no evidence whatsoever that this actually happened. And we never called ourselves Celts. Just because we now speck English, does that make us Anglo-Saxons? Fergananim.
- 83.70.154.81 has corrected that. I'm tempted to add the theory that colonisation followed the (relatively safe) sea lanes up the atlantic coast (modern Morrocco/Portugal/Galacia/Britany) than the dangerous and difficult route through the wild forests of central Europe and England. There was a very convincing series on RTE a few years back that relied on cultural archaeology (art,music) rather than on physical artefacts. Does anyone know who proposed it (or better still, has he published?) --Red King 10:52, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
You're not thinking of Bob Quin's "Atlantian" series? He brought a book out last year on the subject.
As for the Celtic connection ... I think that there may be two explanations.
- 1-By the time our ancestors reached Ireland, we had become a 'culturually' Celtic society. Or *2-Some form of settlement/invasion event (such as happened to Britian with the Romans, Anglo-Saxons and Normans) occoured that had the most profound effect on our culture and language.
Lenister/Leinster
Is this a mis-spelling, or has the spelling changed? (if so, a footnote to that effect would be useful.) By the way, a round of applause to the user at 83.70.154.81 for an excellent set of late night edits on 3 June! I really enjoyed "not worth the vellum it was enscribed upon" :) --Red King 10:52, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Its a spelling error Jdorney
links to main articles broken?
the links to the main articles are all red/unavailable here - what happened to them? if they got renamed could someone fix them? (131.130.121.106 18:41, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC))
They only got added in the last couple of days and haven't actually been written yet193.203.141.1
It'd be nice to have these (the current structure, with its thrown-together template by moi, is clearly rather pro temps), but adding in the "main article" links with no articles to link to is just worsening things. I'm inclined to remove them, unless someone has writing these articles as an actual active work-in-progress. Alai 00:48, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
New Edits
Would love some feedback on the new edits for sections 2 - 7. Cheers. Fergananim
- I'm doing some copyedits, but it is all good stuff. The only concern I have is that much of it is quite detailed for a summary article. So when you are doing the detailed articles, you need to consider what are the really essential points that should remain in the summary article.
- I agree, which is why I've red-linked Main article ... beneath each heading, as I'd like to incorporate the run-off into more in-depth stuff. I'm also hoping that when people see the summery (too much info!) and the red links, they'll have a bash themselves. Fergananim 10 June 2005.