Talk:History of East Timor

When discussing the event in East Timor (and probably many other places) you can't ignore the effects and influence of the arms trade on the development of those events. The following are just a few of the available sources. http://www.motherjones.com/arms/indonesia.html http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/indoarms.html http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/indo101001.htm#weapons2 http://www.wagingpeace.org/articles/armstradecodeofconduct.htm

For British involvement http://www.oneworld.org/ips2/sept99/14_45_070.html Eclecticology 09:57 Sep 3, 2002 (PDT)

---

From the article:

1. Throughout the period 1975-1995 more than a billion dollars worth of American weapons were sold to Indonesia.
2. In addition, 80 million dollars of free equipment was provided between 1975 and 1982.
3. The sale of arms to any country intending to use them for aggressive purposes is illegal under American law.

It would help the article if someone could document any of the above points. I'd particularly like to see a definition of the word "aggressive" in the 3rd point.

Also, in general it's more helpful (and less provocative) to attribute claims to their proponents, as in The People's Movement for a Free and Independent East Timor said that... or whatever the case may be. Then it doesn't matter so much what the US really did: the article is only reporting what the PMFIET said they did. --Ed Poor

---

What caused Timor to develop into East and West? Different ethnic groups? Different colonial masters? Rmhermen 11:52 Sep 3, 2002 (PDT)

---

I guess Bush decided to side with the separatists:

The United States salutes the establishment of East Timor, the first new nation of the millennium. With those in Dili, we celebrate the successful conclusion of the long struggle of the people of East Timor for an independent nation. We are heartened that the people of East Timor have embraced the path of democracy that will lead their nation to peace and prosperity. On behalf of the American people, I congratulate Xanana Gusmao, who was sworn in as East Timor's first President. [1] (http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/ea/timor/bushetimor.htm)

And here's some Australian politician recounting his version of what happened:

A unilateral declaration of independence by Fretilin in November 1975 was followed by an overt Indonesian invasion of East Timor in December. The newly elected Coalition Government, led by Malcolm Fraser, was robust in its criticism of this use of force but unsuccessful in achieving its objective of a United Nations-supervised act of self-determination in the territory. Indonesia*satisfied by its own political processes that the East Timorese wished for integration with Indonesia*formally incorporated the territory on 17 July 1976, an incorporation recognised by Australia in 1979. [2] (http://www.dfat.gov.au/media/speeches/foreign/2000/000912_hdet.html)

--Ed Poor

---

Noam Chomsky wrote, "During the 24-year-long Indonesian military occupation, more than 200,000 people * one-third of the population * were killed." [3] (http://etan.org/etan/2001appl.htm)

Noam Chomsky is just about the very definition of "unreliable source". His writings on human language acquisition are classic and brilliant; his writings on anything at all political are total hogwash. --LDC

Perhaps we ought to see his sources before we dismiss his figure due to a personality conflict. user:Montrealais

While I think you're the one with "hogwash" here, LDC, Chomsky's a dumb source to use on this issue. It's not like he discovered the atrocities himself here. It makes much more sense to go to the closest sources, rather then get dragged into a debate on Chomsky's credibility that's completely unnecessary.

NB -- The closest sources agree with Chomsky.

---

I recently added a paragraph on World War II history, based on [4] (http://www.cafod.org.uk/asia/etimor_background.shtml), [5] (http://www.etra.zip.com.au/histo.html), [6] (http://www.gla.ac.uk/~clubs/easttimor/History1.html), [7] (http://www.uc.pt/timor/jap.occupation.html) and [8] (http://www.gov.east-timor.org/newframe.html). It was replaced shortly afterwards with what I can only assume, based on the cited references, is a revisionist history sympathetic to the Japanese. I reverted it. I am not an expert on East Timorese history, so if the author of this section (User:PinkBotRX) wishes to make a case for his/her addition, I will consider it on its merits. -- Tim Starling 04:55 21 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I was going to revert it myself, Tim. Your version is much better, and doesn't try to hide ugly facts. Tannin 06:55 21 Jun 2003 (UTC)

The ultimate source of "East Timorese civilian casualties have been estimated at 40,000" is Rondan (April 17, 1985), a Japanese magazine, where a Christian poster in Kobe insisted so. Shortly after that, he took back the statement and apologized. The groundless rumor is, however, being circulated without verification as you have seen several times. Anyway, labeling an objection as a revisionist view is quite common to WW II-related topics. --Pinko

Historical revisionism (of the bad kind) is real and it must be fought. The only way to fight it is by applying a high level of academic rigour — searching for the truth rather than for confirmation. Clearly at least one side of this debate is applying historical revisionism, because there are two inconsistent histories of the same event, one of them sympathetic to the Japanese, the other to the Australians & Allies. If you want to continue replacing my paragraph with yours, you'd better have some good references to back it up. With URLs, please. -- Tim Starling 15:47 23 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Operasi Komodo and UDT Coup

Can someone add sections on these events - they are quite important events in the dying months of Portuguese rule and the lead-up to the Indonesian invasion

I agree, PMA. Alas, while I stayed reasonably current on the events at the time they were taking place, that was a long, long time ago and I've forgotten most of it. Tannin 04:08, 1 Sep 2003 (UTC)

What?

Many socialist and communist leaders, in fact, saw independence as unrealistic, and were open to discussions with Jakarta over Portuguese Timor's incorpration into the Indonesian state.

What????????????????????????????????????????? Pedro 02:28, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

Please spend less time writing question marks and more time fixing the article. Dispute boilerplates are for when the discussion has broken down, not for when you just couldn't be bothered fixing something. -- Tim Starling 08:33, Jul 27, 2004 (UTC)

I'll try to get info. But this article is very partial. If you say "Many socialist and communist leaders, in fact, saw independence as unrealistic, and were open to discussions with Jakarta over Portuguese Timor's incorpration into the Indonesian state." would be a major scandal in Portugal. The article is suspitions, forgets the importance of Portugal in the guerilla and independence of East Timor. And tries to make Portugal the "bad" in the story and the USA the good, when the USA has almost half of the Guilt along with Australia. But I'll try to see the timorese view on these issues. Maybe you think I'm being partial cause 'm Portuguese. But I believe that I'm not I growed hearing about East Timor like most Portuguese. That also became a Portuguese fight.--Pedro 12:30, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I don't care whether you're Portuguese or Martian. My problem is that you're complaining and not fixing. See Wikipedia:Why Aren't These Pages Copyedited, Wikipedia:Avoiding common mistakes and Wikipedia:Be bold in updating pages. Fix it, then put it on your watchlist and make sure nobody reverts it. -- Tim Starling 00:47, Jul 28, 2004 (UTC)

I guess Bush decided to side with the separatists: Bush did not 'side with the separatists' in East Timor, firstly because they were not 'separatists' in the first place, and secondly, by the time of Bush's election East Timor was on its way to independent statehood. So what else would he have said? And, Alexander Downer is not just 'some Australian politician' - he's the foreign minister.

As regards Pedro's remarks, Costa Gomes and other socialist or communist leaders did say in 1974 that independence for East Timor, and were open to the idea of incorporation into Indonesia, though not the way things turned out. 02:55, 30 Dec, 2004 (UTC)