Talk:Hebrew phonology

I am a bit unpleased about the pronounciation guide to the vowels. Firstly, the "a" vowels do not have an 'ar' sound - the sound is much shorter, like the a in 'hat' or 'bag'. The "i" vowels are usually like the 'ee' in 'meek', and when shortened can become like the 'i' in lit. As for "o": the 'or' sound in 'sore' is inaccurate, it should be shorter like the 'o' in 'lot'. (please note: these are all from the sephardi and modern Israeli pronounciation, which I think is the most appropriate type if given on a article for those who don't know Hebrew). So, please feed back, -- A

I am not an expert in English pronunciation (not even mentioning the fact that the phonetic sets of different languages almost never coincide), but I can share the following observations:

• The descriptions at Hebrew alphabet are quite precise and perhaps should be merged in (since the page about the alphabet shouldn't deal with the pronunciation, and the page about phonology should)
• The pharyngeal 'ain doesn't have an equivalent in English. Maybe it'd be best to mention one could try to reproduce it by stressing the pharynx a bit, but it's not worth bothering (with Hebrew, at least). I concur that 'heart' is a very imprecise example.
• The /i/ in 'meek' is longer than any Hebrew vowel; the /i/ in 'lit' is a good approximation.
• Perhaps I'm mistaken, but the sound in 'sore' is a bit throatal; unfortunately the English pronunciation of 'lot' differs between dialects, so it's not a helpful example (the sound in Hebrew is similar to the one found in British English).
• The article doesn't mention that in Hebrew /r/ is a trill, and not an approximant, like in English.

Yours truly,

--Uri

Uri - thank you for your input. I will tentatively change the vowel pronounciation, but do not feel confident enough to effect a merge. --A P.S. I am still wide open to anyone else out there with input on the subject.

The letter resh (ר) is not a trill /r/. It's . It's close to the Frecnh 'r' (?), but with a bit less stress of the tongue on the uvula than in French. Consequently the French 'r' occasionally sounds like a . This never happens in Hebrew (except when spoken by French).

French 'r' is an uvular fricative, so it's the same as the Hebrew 'r' (except when I hear Hebrew spoken, the 'r' seems to be an approximant most of the time). --Whimemsz 02:32, May 5, 2005 (UTC)

Actually, even what you say is wrong. Parisian 'r'is a uvular affricative. It is categorically not the same as the Hebrew 'r', which is much more like the German or Danish 'r', and among those MIH speakers who use this pronunciation, you are correct, it usually comes out as more of a uvular approximant (especially in certain positions), than a uvular trill. I think in these positions its IPA symbol would be the uvular equivalent of [gh] (that v with the loop on the bottom that I think is supposedly derived from gamma). Anyone know what that might be? Tomer ^TALK 09:19, May 5, 2005 (UTC)

vowels

Hello,

At first glance, I noticed some problems with the vowel chart, so I did a little investigation. I thought perhaps the wrong symbols were used. However, according to my sources (http://classweb.gmu.edu/accent/nl-ipa/hebrewipa.html ), the symbols are the correct IPA symbols, but the English examples should be as follows:

/a/ (As in the first half of the diphthong in UK "park")

/e/ (As in the first half of the diphthong in "late")

/i/ (Only as in "deep", when spoken quickly)

/o/ (As in the first half of the diphthong in "coat")

/u/ (As in "soup", when spoken quickly)

These last four vowels are identical to those used of Spanish. However, if my source is correct, then the <a> is somewhat different than in Spanish as it is produced much closer to the front of the oral cavity.

I hope that helps!

Best regards,

  Brian Perkins

I'm by no means an expert in Hebrew. From what I can hear, though, it sounds to me like the Hebrew "/e/" is far closer to Template:Unicode than /e/. It sounds much more open than the /e/ in, say, Spanish. Someone who's more knowledgable about Hebrew phonetics than I am, feel free to explain why I'm wrong, which I very well may be. While I'm on the subject, though, Hebrew "/x/" is definitely an uvular fricative Template:Unicode, not a velar one. -Whimemsz

Like so much of the pronunciation of MIH, the pronunciation both of tzere and segol depends almost entirely on the individual, with any remaining influence being due mainly to the origin of their ancestors. Native speakers of Spanish usually pronounce it /e/ when the syllable is open and Template:Unicode when the syllable is closed. The same holds true for the pronunciation of khaf and cheth. Those whose ancestry is Ashkenazi almost exclusively pronounce both as (uvular) Template:Unicode. Most Sefardim pronounce khaf as (uvular) Template:Unicode, while pronouncing cheth as (pharyngeal) Template:Unicode, while Mizrachim often pronounce khaf as (velar) and cheth as (pharyngeal) Template:Unicode. That said, many Sefardim and Ashkenazim whose main language is Spanish, rather than more isolated forms of Ladino, in my experience, often use Template:Unicode or simply only (especially in non-final positions)! Tomer ^TALK 00:39, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)

Oh, and another thing. I was under the impression that the schwas of Biblical Hebrew have either dissapeared in some cases and merged with /e/ (or Template:Unicode) in others. Is /@/ still a phoneme of Modern Hebrew, then? Because that's what the article seems to suggest, to me anyway. --Whimemsz 20:52, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)

Assuming that by /@/ you mean Template:Unicode, yes, schwa is a MIH phoneme. Something that's not discussed in the phonology article, however, and should perhaps be touched upon, is the auditory elision of consonant phonemes at the beginnings of words, preceeded by a shva, when it is "too difficult" to pronounce them distinctly, especially in rapid speech. E.g., the pronunciation [b]'vaqasha or [w]'vaqasha for b'vaqasha...which often sounds simply like "vaqasha". :-p Tomer ^TALK 00:39, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)

Okay, then. Template:Unicode! ;) --Whimemsz 01:00, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)

Hi,

I am not a linguist, but I am interested in the topic. I am a native Hebrew speaker, so all my comments are simply based on listening to myself pronounce the words. First a question to Tomer. You say that some mizrakhim pronounce as khaf (כ) as a velar fricative /x/. Are you sure about that? I don't think I have ever heard that. I think all Hebrew speakers pronounce this as an uvular fricative /χ/.

Now for my comments. I think the distinction between long and short vowels in Hebrew is much less obvious than the table suggests. According to the table tzeire is /e/ and segol is . I am not sure this is true. Compare ספר and גבר. The first word has a tzeire on its first syllable, the second a segol. Are the vowels under the first syllable of both words pronounced any differently?

Likewise I am not sure about the distinction between segol and a non-silent sh'va, which according to the table is . Compare גבר (second unstressed syllable) and בטח (meaning trust in the imperative). The former has segol, the latter sh'va, and they sound the same to me.

The important distinction is between stressed and unstressed syllables. Of course, this affects the nikud, but a stressed syllable with segol (as in בגד) will be pronounced in exactly the same way as a tzeire (unless the tzeire is followed by a yod; see below). The unstressed syllable will be shorter. Thus בגד is and ספר is . An unstressed non-silent sh'va (a non-silent sh'va will is never stressed) is also .

The tzeire is pronounced like /e/ only when it is followed by a yod. For example, ביצה is . Even this is not true of all speakers. Some (mostly sefaradim, although this way of pronounciation might be in decline) pronoounce it .

One point about the pronouciation of the 'o' sound in Hebrew (kholam). There is no real equivalent for this sound in English. 'lot' is in RP and in American pronounciation (see IPA chart for English). Perhaps the 'o' in 'obey' is a good English equivalent, but in any case I think it is best to give (in addition, if not instead) examples from European languages in which the vowel exists: 'beau' in French is exactly like בוא in Hebrew: /bo/.

In fact the way vowels are pronounced in Spanish or French is often much more helpful as pronouciation guides. Even people who don't speak those languages usually know what simple words in these languages sound like, so such examples could be very useful. For /a/ 'cama' (bed) in Spanish is identical with קמה and כמה. For /u/ the French 'sous' or the Spanish 'sur' (compare: עשו and אסור) are better than the English 'soon' or 'soup'. 'e' has reasonable equivalents in English, although here again Spanish or French might be closer.

About the 'i' (khirik) I am not entirely sure. I think it is (and not /i/). I am not sure whether there is a distinction between long and short - I suspect there is. As for pronounciation examples: עשיתי is close to 'city' (less so to 'sit'). The first syllable of 'citė' in French is identical to the first syllable in סיפר in Hebrew .

I hope this helps.

DSP

It's true that "European" (I guess) vowels are closer to those of Hebrew; perhaps the explanations could be things like "Like the Spanish 'o', or similar to the English 'oa' in boat." --Whimemsz 02:32, May 5, 2005 (UTC)

moved sounds section from Hebrew language

I hope nobody minds too much that I moved this rather long section from the Hebrew language article to here, after having made extensive changes to that section in the Hebrew language article. (q.v.) Tomer ^TALK 07:19, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)