Talk:Great Britain
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Note there is a bug in the history of this page. My changes today do not include those about Brutus. Rich Farmbrough 16:16, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
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Old Comments
"Britain and Ireland" simply won't do in the first paragraph here. The context is "Great Britain is the largest island in this whole bunch of islands off the coast of Northwest Europe". Reducing that group to "Britain and Ireland" makes the sentence nonsensical: "Great Britain is the biggest island in the group consisting of Great Britain and Ireland." Whee. If that was what the author wanted to say, he would have said "Great Britain is bigger than Ireland", which is a true but rather pointless statement.
How to phrase this so it's understood that Great Britain is the biggest of several islands there? -- Paul Drye
Sorry if I was a bit simplistic in replacing "British Isles" by "Britain and Ireland". How about something like "which is the largest island in the archipelago off the west coast of Europe that includes Great Britain, Ireland, the Faroes, the Orkney Islands, and the Isle of Man". --Eob
Well, the problem there is that you are making the thing being defined part of the definition: "Great Britain is....that includes Great Britain, Ireland, etc." We need the name of the archipelago. We may need to go with "British Isles" simply because the trend towards precision that's given us Britain and Ireland has not yet come up with a name for the archipelago that suits our purpose here. -- Paul Drye
I'm having a hard time understanding why "British Isles" was replaced with "Great Britain and Ireland" all over the place in this encyclopedia. My understanding has always been that the term "British Isles" included Ireland. I just looked up "British Isles" in the online Mirriam-Webster dictionary, and it said: 'island group W Europe comprising Great Britain, Ireland, & adjacent islands ' . Not that this proves anything, but it is definitely a common understanding among a lot of people that Ireland is part of the British Isles.
- The term dates from when GB and Ireland were part of the one state, the United Kingdom. Most Irish people take offence at the term, because some presume it means that the states are still linked politically. So it is a controversial term that it is best to avoid. An alternative used is Islands of the North Atlantic or IONA, which is increasingly being used. JTD 16:16 Feb 16, 2003 (UTC)
- But please see note lower down about the usage. Thanks Nevilley 08:55 Feb 17, 2003 (UTC)
It's reaction to "British" meaning, to many people, "of the United Kingdom". It's a fair cop, and several of Eob's changes are more precise. But some aren't, as we are discussing. -- Paul Drye
- If the "British Isles" is the official name of the archipelago, then that is the name that should be used. I am willing to concede that the Miriam-Webster dictionary might be wrong, but it is also possible that this is indeed the correct term for all those islands, including Ireland. The United Kingdom is just a political entity anyway, that doesn't have to necessarily correspond to the name of any island or islands. The term "British" can also refer to the island of Britain, after all, and if Scotland becomes independent are we going to stop using the word "Britain" to refer to the island?
- You're arguing at cross purposes with me; I agree with you that the archipelago is best-called the British Isles -- "British" has two meanings to me, only one possessive -- but that's not the entirety of Eob's changes. Several of those he's made are clearer with the extra precision (though I'm mulling over Zundark's suggestion that "United Kingdom and Ireland" might be better still). -- Paul Drye
See also the discussion in talk:Britain and Ireland. My contention is that although the term "British Isles" has been used in the past it originated in the time when Britain did have political control over both main islands -- which is no longer the case. Many people in Ireland do not want to be considered part of the "British Isles" any more than people in Britain would like to be part of the "Irish Isles". Most uses of the "British Isles" can be replaced by "Britain and Ireland". However there are a few cases, such as the original usage on the Great Britain page, where "Britain and Ireland" is not quite accurate because the intended use also includes other smaller islands in the archipelago. I do not have a good answer for those cases. --Eob
See also talk:Britain, for more along these lines.
Every time I need to link to this page, I am again made aware that it appears to emphasize a view of the island from an English point of view. There are other nationalities on this island who are quite happy to not be called English, and who have a long historical record. To work around this problem, can wre have under the "see also" heading a list of other links, such as prehistoric Britain, Roman Britain, Wales, Scotland, Cornwall? I'm probably asking this with insufficient tact & will get flamed for this suggestion, but I hope cooler & more reasonable heads understand the problem I am pointing at. -- llywrch 19:25 Jan 2, 2003 (UTC)
The term IONA (Islands of the North Atlantic) is used in the Good Friday Peace Agreement as a replacement term for the 'British Isles', though it may or may not catch on. (It is also defined on Wiki.) A solution might be to use the 'British Isles' (saying that it is a long-standing term) but mention that IONA is considered as a possible alternative, to take into account Irish sensitivities. That would allow you to use the most common term 'british isles' while reducing its offensiveness to we Irish. JTD 04:42 Jan 9, 2003 (UTC)
My understanding is that Great Britain is not, in fact, a single island, as this article says, but one big island plus lots of little islands like Lundy, Angelsey, the Hebrides and so on, governed from the mainland. It doesn't include the Isle of Man or the Channel Islands, however. Am I correct in thinking this? I'll edit the page to say as much if so. --Camembert
It is a confusing point. Politically it may include them. Geographically it might not do (except Anglesea, which usually is included.) There are different theories. JTD 16:16 Feb 16, 2003 (UTC)
OK. Would it be fair to say, do you think, that baldly stating without qualification at the article's outset that GB is "an island" is misleading? --Camembert
- My understanding is that "Britain" is an island, while the "British Isles" is Britain plus the surrounding islands. Otherwise the term "British Isles" would be redundant... (And as the article says, "Great Britain" is just another name for what we normally call "Britain".) -- Oliver P. 16:26 Feb 16, 2003 (UTC)
- Don't forget that "British Isles" also includes Ireland, which "Britain" certainly does not. See the MacMillan Encyclopaedia (http://www.xrefer.org/entry.jsp?xrefid=504949&secid=.-&hh=1) on this, btw - not the greatest source, but the only one I can dig up right now. --Camembert
It seems like Great Britain is best stated as a political concept: England + Wales + Scotland including their small islands. [1] (http://www.know-britain.com/general/great_britain.html) seems like a good explanation, although it contradicts itself by saying "Great Britain is the largest island in Europe". [2] (http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si1987/Uksi_19872196_en_1.htm) is an official document referring to "islands of Great Britain." But what about the geographical concept of island? How can the largest island of Great Britain have no name? ( 17:25 Feb 16, 2003 (UTC)
- There's the problem, you see - "Great Britain", as JTD suggests, is used to mean both the political grouping of England, Scotland and Wales, and also used to mean a single island. The article, I think, has to reflect this double usage, and, IMO, should open with something like "Great Britain is a political entity consisting of Scotland, England and Wales, including their small islands, such as Anglesey, the Hebrides, the Orkney Islands and the Shetland Islands. It is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The term Great Britain is also sometimes used to mean the large island consisting of the bulk of these countries." The rest of the article could then be changed as needed. Thoughts? --Camembert
- Oh, sorry, I changed it before seeing your proposal. You'd better change my version, as it didn't sound quite right anyway. I'm not sure we should favour the political entity over the geographical one, though, as the phrase "also sometimes used" suggests we are doing. -- Oliver P. 17:56 Feb 16, 2003 (UTC)
- Don't worry, your version is probably better. I'm going to move that reference down to the bottom, but otherwise I'll leave this for today, and return tomorrow or some time to fiddle with it (if it's not already been fiddled with). --Camembert
The whole of this geographic thing can lead to endless hair-splitting because of past history. What about the Irish Sea which has Great Britain on its eastern side, or the English Channel, shared by France. jimfbleak 16:34 Feb 16, 2003 (UTC)
- good suggestion, Cam. re-the Irish Sea and the English Channel - those names aren't disputed. Re-Anglesey: it may technically be an island, but because it is so close to Wales and is linked to Wales physically, it is generally seen as part of Great Britain both politically and geographically. The Hebrides, etc are more complicated because they are unambiguously islands off the island of Great Britain. JTD 18:13 Feb 16, 2003 (UTC)
- Just as well the French will have their own fr.wikipedia page to describe "perfidious Albion". The English Channel is the English name the French name is La Manche "The Sleeve” which is a reference to its shape. So no surprises there then! Philip Baird Shearer 12:18, 17 May 2004 (UTC)
I like the look of ('s version. As I say, I'll probably return to this later, but what we have now is an improvement on what we had before, I'm sure. --Camembert
I shifted the IONA bit to lower down the article. I think it had an unwarranted prominence at the top, and I am not sure that claim of increasing use can be substantiated. (Looking at it again I think I may have shifted it to the wrong place, and might try again, whoops sorry, but I stick by the principle! ) I've been looking around the web a bit and, quite apart from my feeling that it's a terrible temr and that the annexation of the placename Iona is regrettable, I honestly cannot find that much evidence that it's coming into use - most of the (little) stuff I found is from a few years ago. I am happy to debate this, and I am certainly not unaware of the sensitivities around these issues. I just didn't feel that the previous version reflected the facts. Sorry if I have trodden on your toes: let's discuss it. Nevilley 08:54 Feb 17, 2003 (UTC)
Why do we have separate article on Great Britain and Kingdom of Great Britain? Rmhermen 14:00 2 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Because they refer to different things. Great Britain is a currently existing entity, namely the island of Great Britain, (England + Scotland + Wales) that is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Kingdom of Great Britain was a kingdom that was created by an Act of Union in 1707 (which merged the previous Kingdom of England and Kingdom of Scotland - since October 1604 the royal title Great Britain had been used. But a kingdom with that name didn't legally come into existence until the Act of Union! Yeah it is confusing!!!) which ceased to exist when the Kingdom of Ireland and the Kingdom of Great Britain merged to form the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland in 1801.
Because of the use of so many nomenclatures and governmental structures on the islands of Great Britain and Ireland, separate articles exist explaining what each is, hence Kingdom of Ireland separate from Ireland, and United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland separate from the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Taken together each article should offer readers a stepping stone to follow each merger and separation as it followed. England and Scotland exist as governmental units still, but GB doesn't and the Kingdom of Ireland is long gone. Hence separate articles on the K of GB and K of Ireland. FearÉIREANN 01:03 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
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8th or 9th largest Island
"depending on whether Australia is counted as an island."
Australia is a continent, or is there really a dispute over this. If there isn't then lets fix Great Britian's rank among islands. --ShaunMacPherson 13:12, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- I for one never thought Australia's status as a continent was disputed until the question arose on Talk:History of Greenland (the article mentions Greenland as the world's largest island). Maybe the teachings on this matter differs between different countries or different times? -- Jao 08:12, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
- I removed the remark about Australia. Australia is considered a continent. Shanes 11:32, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Population
What's the historical population of the island of Great Britain? - Jerryseinfeld 18:56, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Etymology
Can we get some sources--Are we source that "Britanny" is a DIMINUTIVE of Britain, as Jimmy is for Jim? Is it not likely to have developed from Latin Britannia, the -ia suffix becoming -ie (/i/) in French and -y in English?
New Article - overview of terminology
I have just written an article that is meant to give an overview of terms like (Great) Britain, the Bitish Isles, the UK and England (and whether Ireland has anything to do with any of these) on my user page. The discussion seems to have died down, but when I tried to find a clarification of these terms I found the answer spread over various articles. I suppose more people will have problems with this, so I wrote an overview: User:DirkvdM/British Isles - Clarification of Terms