Talk:God

Mythology

In Canaanite Mythology El (god) was the father of mankind and creator of creatures. He was for all purposes, attributed as the god of the desert such as that given to Yaweh. While El, in the myths, did not appear to have omnipotence it is most likely that the Hebrews accepted this god as their chief god on the way towards monotheism. It could further be hypothesized that the omnipotent aspect was borrowed from the Hebrews affiliation with the Babylonians. In that mythology, Marduk became the supreme god, complete with artifacts of omnipotent powers. According to the Old Testament (if accepted as science fact) Noah and Abraham, both worshipped El, and other gods, until it was revealed that El stood alone. Yaweh, then took on the attributes of Marduk and El. It is unclear where the pre-Islamic pantheons fit into this, as the works have been destroyed or lost with the inception of Islam in Arabia. It is possible that those gods were somewhat similar to that of Canaanite gods, as Allah was the chief god among those peoples.

why do we have a "mythology" section now? this article is too long already. move to Elohim or YHWH, or, well, Mythology. dab 12:46, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I agree, this section would serve us better elsewhere. It should be merged tho, not deleted, of course! [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 15:47, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Allah = God?

In a religious studies class currently and reading the Qur'an. They do not choose to translate Allah into God, even though it should translate directly. Even speaking to them, they refer to the Christian god as "God" (even though they express that they are the same thing just one is 'misinterpreted) and their god as "Allah". Not sure if this has anything to do with anything, but it seems the definitions are missing something...

Jayon 16:46, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This is a difficult and involved topic. My POV (I am an inclusionist in the religious sense) is that most religions worship God, but simply under different names. Clearly, many disagree. [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 17:17, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

- That is POV, of course. Many (such as those Muslim's in which I spoke) agree that they 'might' be the same, but that one was mistaken. "that most religions worship God, but simply under different names" could easily be taken offensive by some since 'God' is more a proper noun and is mostly associated with Western Religion. Granted in other languages it is the same 'Dios' and 'Deus' are just capitalizations of the word 'god', yet I have found that 'Allah' (even though spelled different) is still used there. It would seem like 'God' is a proper name for a diety that 'doesn't have a name' or believed to be 'beyond a name' or some such.

-Jayon 17:39, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

For me, God = All, the absolute infinite, universal consciousness, the Atman, etc... [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 18:36, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Allah = God is standard Muslim doctrine, and good enough for this article. Dissenting voices can be included in Allah. Of course, Muslims will say that the Trinity was a terrible idea, but that doesn't change Allah = God. The Christians just got a muddled version :) dab 19:13, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

There are those (and they are already mentioned in the article, or were) however who insist that only their church worships God, and that every other church, denomination and religion worships satan, ba'al, baphomet, or what-have-you. Read over a Chick tract some time ;) [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 19:26, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It's all the same deity, since Islam was basically a branch of Judeo-Christianity, just like Christianity was a branch of Judaism. God, Allah and Yahweh are at least conceptually the same basic entity within these religions. --bainer 23:30, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Yes, the religions are historically related to each other. However, they have mutually exclusive concepts of God; some think God exists in three persons (i.e. as a Trinity), others think this is an impossible or blasphemous or polytheistic idea. Very very few people think that both conceptions of God can be equally valid at the same time, at least among those who genuinely believe that a deity exists. Thus there has been some internal debate among Jews and Muslims concerning whether Christians are even monotheistic. Wesley 17:35, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

NPOV

Who is disputing what, and why?

[[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 08:56, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I thought you had added the notice at some point? I think the article is quite fair now. Although we need to cut the weaselisms. "The religions widely thought of as monotheistic today" may be npov, but it's horrible stylistically. Can't we just define what we mean by "monotheistic", and then talk about "monotheistic religions"? dab 11:50, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Not unless your been swayed by my reasoning (or intend to be ;). Suggesting that eastern thought is not monotheistic is POV, IMO. I know your trying to discuss the origins of western monotheism, and if you clarify that I'll be fine w it, but I reject the western ethnocentrism of assuming Judaism was the first monotheism, while ignoring other traditions. [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 12:05, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"the modern monotheistic religions" are Islam, Christianity, Judaism. full stop. (though there are minor ones, of course). I am not trying to include eastern religions under the term, because they are happily undecided in western terms. Judaism was not the first monotheism, western or not. first strict monotheisms appeared later, propably as late as Hellenism. Henotheism otoh is older than Judaism (but cannot be shown to be older in the Far East than in the Ancient Near East) dab 14:03, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Far east and ancient near east blend into the Indian sub continent, the very potential contridiction of your thesis. I fear that trying to invoke any clear beginning of monotheism (as opposed to western monotheism) is prone to error, and would assumably end the "happily undecided" status of eastern religions (including Hinduism, Budhism, and Jainism). I'd rather leave it ambiguous, or focus on western monotheism alone, where I am somewhat confident we'd find little disagreement. [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 16:56, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

sure, I agree. "Eastern religions" came into existence in the 1st millennium BC, though, and whatever people in India were up to in ANE times (2nd and 3rd millennia) , we just don't know. dab 17:22, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

They seem to have some ideas ;) [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 09:32, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I slipped the words "a term referring to" into the first line defining another controversial encyclpedic entry and immediately it was reverted... But here, the author has used and even longer similar qualifying phrase, "a term referring to the concept of" to define "God." "God is a term referring to the concept of a Supreme Being..." I inlcuded thisin POV, which I guess means "political correct version, though I dont know what the O stands for in P.O.V. and Non P.O.V.? Just a curiosity, not a complaint, and more about other pages than this one which to me seems quite rightly to start with the definition of the word as a word before stating absolutes.--T. Mc. 00:20, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Post Human God

this sectoin of the article seems to me to be open to some interpretation, did Clarke mean in the quote that was litteraly create God in some physical form or that he is a construct of collective human beleif? this quote seems like the surrounding context would clear that up.

I think this concept is an ill defined one no matter where you look. Transhumanism and singularity are good leads. [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Wants you to vote! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Boardvote)]] 23:41, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Does God exist?

What valid proof of God is there?

What valid proof is there of ANYTHING? Ungtss 03:40, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I am

;)

[[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Wants you to vote! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Boardvote)]] 23:39, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

tattvam asi, Sam dab (ᛏ)

Ja! :D [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Wants you to vote! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Boardvote)]] 12:22, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I refer you all to this (http://ask.metafilter.com/mefi/15935) because I am a cooch who writes a lot. Lockeownzj00 05:31, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Photograph

If anyone has a photograph of God, can you please upload it? --NoPetrol 07:34, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Nevermind. I found one.

Okay, I really need to get some sleep. --NoPetrol 07:34, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Hey, whats that he's drinking? Some kind of cider? [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Wants you to vote! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Boardvote)]] 12:23, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Well, you're a pantheist, right? So, therefore, he's drinking God. - Nat Kraus e 13:41, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

A photograph of which god? There was a photograph of Invisible Pink Unicorn in the article some time ago. Rafał Pocztarski 13:49, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I have a whole gallery of pics of God, have a look: [1] (http://grin.hq.nasa.gov/BROWSE/gallaxies.html). Cheers, [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Wants you to vote! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Boardvote)]] 14:33, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Rael?

Recently edits by Jordanblue added a reference to Rael and its website directly in the article. I personally think that it should not belong the main article but (if really necessary) in the links section. What do you think? Nova77 17:49, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

CFA?

hey this article (and this talk page:)) reads good enough now to be nominated as a featured article - too drowsy to do it now and tomorrow weekend chores backlog to be cleared so dont know if i'll remeber. blokes*, think about nominating this.

[i'm brit feminist rastafariafrogitan[a/o] for me bloke means any sentient being.]

Not even close. Request for peer review, maybe. Inserting a copyedit tag would be more like it... Blair P. Houghton 21:08, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

1st sentance

God is the supreme being, generally believed to be ruler or creator of, and/or immanent within, the universe.

God is a term referring to the concept of a supreme being, generally believed to be ruler or creator of, and/or immanent within, the universe.

To me the second is ridiculous, but lets hear what everyone thinks. (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 02:52, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The first assumes that God exists; the second is neutral and factual. Jayjg ^(talk) 04:38, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

how is the first NOT ridiculous? It's like saying in the GWB article, "Bush is a fucking idiot," or "Bush is a fucking genious (even if the first one is true ;P)," it's completely POV. Ipso facto and all that. Lockeownzj00 05:38, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

God = supreme being. You can say God doesn't exist, or that a supreme being doesn't exist, but you can't say God isn't a supreme being. And "a term referring to the concept of a..." is a joke. (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 20:37, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

How is it a joke? When you say, "love refers to the concept of human affection," it's perfectly normal--you don't say, "love is great," or "love is human compassion." Because even though were are trying to be NPOV, a statement that is seemingly objective like "God is" really isn't. Do you study languages? I do. When you define a word in another language in, let's say, English, you say, "Ai means love." You do not say "Ai is love." Besides it being grammatically clunky, it is hard to exact ambiguous concepts like that.

You can not say "God is the supreme being" as the article stated in its earlier form. This is inherently POV. "God" isn't a supreme being. God is a word to describe this concept.

Besides, this is also more about the CONCEPT of God. God is not always a proper name. Lockeownzj00 21:18, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Interesting. I do study languages actually, particularly german. In german, God is Gott, root of the english word Good (as well as our word "God"), and which, when traced back far enough linguistically (to its indo-euro roots), seems to mean "libation". That said, I think the intro could use a bit better prose, but its neutral enough at this point IMO. Cheers, (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 22:59, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

here, this is what I was on about. (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 00:18, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I agree that the first is ridiculous, to someone who does not believe in God (or even believes in multiple gods or a specific god), "God" is not the supreme being, so the first statement is automatically false. Whereas the second statement, while you may dislike its wording, is fundamentally true regardless of the reader's personal beliefs. I for one think that just "God is the concept of a supreme being..." without the "term referring to" would be fine, but the current form probably is the least POV...--Lord Shitzu 08:45, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)

Just for fun, see how the second construction sounds when we're talking about a different concept. For instance, "The United States President is a term referring to the concept of a president of the United States, generally believed to be the head of the United States' government's executive branch, and either residing in or occasionally visiting the White House." It's certainly neutral, but it's awfully awkward prose. Wesley 16:55, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It's certainly "fun" except for the part where nobody disputes the existence of the President of the United States, at most they dispute his legitimacy, whereas there are a number of people quite willing to dispute the idea, the very concept of a god. And again, I think the "term referring to" is unnecessary, however "God is the concept of a supreme being" or something of the sort is necessary.--Lord Shitzu 23:29, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)

What do you think of this one?:

God is the One Supreme Being, believed by many exist to exist and rule or and/or beimmanent within our supposedly created universe. -- Subramanian ^talk 10:54, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

the image

we have Michelangelo's painting further down, so I don't like the cropped image of "God's face" appearing in the intro. How about this (http://www.netspace.org/~ewinard/cavechurch/00093336.jpg) (an example of Christian use of the Tetragrammaton, in the Bourges Cathedral). Or some 17th century woodcut with a hand emerging from a cloud? Showing the face in the intro seems a bit too much on the anthropomorphic side. This may also be an article that should go without any image in the intro. dab (ᛏ) 13:21, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think it would be best not to have any image in the intro. Wesley 16:56, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

quotes

the quotes should go to wikiquote. that's why we have wikiquote, no article should have a "quotes" section. dab (ᛏ) 05:47, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

God as Fictional/Literary character?

I think that the article "God" should also note the idea of "God" as a fictional or literary character in western literary and pop culture. Boyko

(note that the above comment was unsigned)

(So what? Now it's not... It's easy to forget--and I'm sure the Boyko was NOT acting in bad faith. Emyth)

I disagree. Just because He appears in a great deal of fiction and literature doesn't affect what sort of character He is. Whether one believes He is real or not, I don't think His appearance in such works is significant enough to warrant an encyclopedia entry. --Keeves 20:51, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I beg to differ with your disagreement: The appearance of "God" as a character in a wide variety of stories, films, plays, poetry and other literature is really quite fascinating. It most certainly affects what sort of character God is... Theologically speaking, the issue as to whether or not God is anything more than a figment of our religious imagination is one of the most important, hotly debated and interesting topics. "What can we learn about God by studying "God"?" is a fascinating question for some theologians. There are books, articles and college courses taught about this issue, therefore, any encyclopedia worth its salt will reflect that fact. Perhaps it will end up as another article... "Fictional depictions of God"... with a link under "See also", would that work for you? Emyth 20:36, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)

Where did the word "God" come from???

When did we start calling God "God"?--Luckybeargod 16:39, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)

When the Saxons introduced the Germanic deity Gott. JFW | T@lk 16:54, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

for the person who made a comment about omnipotence in the edit summary

think omni + potent = potency everywhere.

also see power and [2] (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=power).

power means the capacity to produce effects. without the capacity to produce effects, one does not have power. omnipotence is the capacity to produce arbitrary effects everywhere. an arbitrary effect, in the dominion of diety, is the creation of a god more powerful than a given other god. the point is that absolute omnipotence is a logical absurdity. This is known, more abstractly, as Russell's paradox. Kevin Baas^talk 22:42, 2005 Apr 18 (UTC)

===>That was me. The definition of "omnipotence" provided by dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=omnipotence) is:

Having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful

It is possible that God has an unlimited storehouse of power (the ability to do work, or strength), but not all conceivable powers/abilities/capacities. Similarly, God could have more authority than any other being, but not have utter authority to will anything that could be imagined, and He would still have all authority, because no other entity has authority over Him. At that same site, they define "omni-" as "all" not "everywhere." This is why I justify saying that some definitions (specifically, those of people who are not theologians or academic philosophers) have a misconstrual of "omnipotence" as meaning "able to do anything that can possibly be conceived." Justin (koavf) 00:19, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)

[3] (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=omni) is a bit more precise.

"universal" means all concievable powers. omni means all over; everywhere (universal), as distinct from unlimited/ultimate. In the definition, "unlimited" is less proper than "universal". (for instance: omnipresent (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=omnipresent) = present everywhere; all-over, not extremely present in one place, or having unlimited capacity to be present. also: omniscient (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=omniscient)]" having total knowledge; knowing everything, as distinct from having absolute knowledge, knowing perfectly, or having infinite capacity to know.) If something can be imagined, that that is under the scope of concievable powers. For example, if god "caused" the universe, then at one point, the universe did not exist; was not a "being" to have authority over, could not even be imagined, there being no source for this imagination. Kevin Baas^talk 00:27, 2005 Apr 19 (UTC)

philosophers concern themselves with ontological qualifiers, such as "of", "in", "for", "from", "pertaining to", "regarding", etc. They are important distinctions. the qualifier for "omni" is "in", not "of". omnidirectional: in all directions. omnipresent: present in all places. omnipotent: potent in all things. Kevin Baas^talk 00:34, 2005 Apr 19 (UTC)

"all", in regard to omni, means, more specifically, all-pervading (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=pervading). all-pervading knowledge, all-pervading direction, all-pervading presence, all-pervading power (potency). i.e. "god is the ultimate pimp" (see potency) (will to piety as a voyeuristic pursuit of power) Kevin Baas^talk 00:49, 2005 Apr 19 (UTC)

Definitions

I have reverted the opening two lines to the following:

The term God is ordinarily used to designate a singular, universal Supreme Being.

However, there are countless variant definitions of this God. For example:

20:04, Apr 19, 2005 Paradiso had "(simplified some language)" and made it the following:

The term God designates a universal Supreme Being.

There are countless variant definitions of God, however. For example:

I argue that the qualified, usage-oriented definition that I've provided is better, for it allows for some of the odder usages of the term God that make Paradiso's definition false/inadequate. As for the second sentence, "However" belongs at the begining of the sentence; dangling modifiers are poor English, and it obscures the logical relation of the two sentences.

Sometimes "simple" isn't better. Emyth 23:08, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)

I changed the opening statement.

Old Version:

The term God is ordinarily used to designate a singular, universal Supreme Being.

However, there are countless variant definitions of this God.

Reasons for edits:

the word however works best as a conjunction to join the two sentences
the words singular and universal are reduntant, since they are implied by Supreme Being (I don’t really care about “universal” but “of the universe” would be better than “universal” )
we do not need the word ordinarily for definitions, so its gone
the word variant is only reduntant and confusing, so lose it
I also got rid of the word this since it is meaningless and only confused things

New Version:

The term God is used to designate a Supreme Being, however, there are countless definitions of God.

Paradiso 01:05, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

Hindu's Brahma as God?

Okay I like progression as much as anyone, but there is no where in any of the Vedas where Brahma is called God or has the attributes of God. This is a more moderate and liberal interpretation of the Hindu religion. As far as I know there are no Brahma temples or worship areas. Unless someone can provide proof that the Hindu Formless being known as Brahma is another name for God, I will delete the passage in the next few days.mpa

See Brahmanism. Sam Spade 13:21, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Please explain remove for removal of argument against the Cosmological argument

Why did you call the argument silly? It is exactly as silly as the cosmological argument itself. This argument, or a rewording of it, willl return shortly, unless there is a good explanation of its removal.Nereocystis 23:20, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

This page is no place for counter arguments. If it comes down to it, I'd rather see all these argument summaries go, than allow a bunch of point / counter-point debate on this page. Sam Spade 23:23, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

The arguments for and against are very relevant to the article, but should remain summarized (as they are now) with links to the appropriate pages where they appear in more detail. Some of the arguments 'against' do seem to be a bit wordy, however. Paradiso 00:48, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

A link to arguments for the existence of God or arguments against the existence of God are fine, but we can't possibly list each and every one here, and the idea of listing counter-arguments (how about the rebuttals ?!?) is absurd. Sam Spade 11:20, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Sam for once (yay!), there is no space to discuss the merits of the individual arguments. Just list them and point to their articles for discussion. dab (ᛏ) 13:42, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

To put just one side of the argument would be to violate the NPOV policy, besides being intellectually irresponsible. The very substantial controversy over whether the thing described in the article actually exists or not is extremely relevant, given that this is an article on a thing who's very existence is disputed. Kevin Baas^{talk: new (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Kevin_baas&action=edit&section=new)} 17:42, 2005 May 13 (UTC)

What isn't disputed? I dispute that you exist. I dispute that you believe what you claim to believe. Who cares? Thats not what this article is about. We should have one small section about this debate, address some of the basics, and primarilly link elsewhere. Theological and metaphysical debate is growing at a terminal velocity, and won't be covered in detail here. Sam Spade 18:07, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

It seems that a short version of the argument against the Cosmological argument should go back in. Alternatively, all of the arguments on both sides could be removed, and people (and gods) can follow the links. Is this correct? The problem with Sam Spade's removal of an argument is that he removed one argument from one side only.Nereocystis 18:31, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

It wasn't an argument, it was a lengthy rebuttal. Sam Spade 22:22, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

OK. How about summarizing the argument rather than deleting it?Nereocystis 23:14, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

It wasn't an argumant at all, it was a rebuttal of the Cosmological argument. That sort of thing has no place here. For one thing, does anybody have a cite for it, or was it just original research? Either way, it still has no place on God of course. Sam Spade 00:58, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

nono, it isn't a violation of NPOV policy to just say the argument exists and point to its article. It would be a violation to say "there is also the great cosmological argument, which leaves atheist suckers speechless". But since we're saying that the very existence of God is disputed, there is no need to say that every argument for or against said existence is disputed too. I mean, that would seem to be too obvious for even the most cognitively challenged readers. "There is also the cosmological argument (hey, guess what, it's disputed too!"? be brief, this article is long as it is, and you can refute the argument to your heart's content on its own article. dab (ᛏ) 10:55, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I didn't follow any of that. What I was suggesting is that the deleted excerpt might constitute original research, and even if it doesn't, it has no place on this page. I don't think anybody is invoking NPOV. The point is that the subject of arguments for and against the existence of God is a completely different subject than God himself. A link to arguments for the existence of God or arguments against the existence of God is fine, but anything more than a brief summary of the subject is out of place here. Sam Spade 12:14, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

No primary argument

The current list is better, but the primary argument against a god isn't the existence of evil, at least for me. I think it would be better to list no arguments than list this as the primary argument.Nereocystis 18:17, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

There is no primary argument for or against. So none should be highlighted over the others. Paradiso 01:52, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

OK. Sam Spade 17:59, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Disproving God

This section was removed from article.

Disproving existance

Many people who do not believe in the concept of God try to disprove him mathematically. One such proof goes as follows: Can God create a rock too big for himself to lift? If the answer is yes, then He is not perfect, and therefore not God, since He cannot lift all rocks. If the answer is no, then He is not perfect, and therefore not God due to the inability to do something.

I am not impressed with the writing here to begin with, it seems out of place since this is a counter to the telological argument, and is only concerned with a single omnipotent, perfect god. not all concepts of the idea "god"

As an aside, this is also logically absurd. The argument reduces to this: "Can anything that can not exist, exist?" or in catagorical logic: A and Not A.

Anyway, in summary, this is not the place for this, and if it is, the counter argument needs to go up, and the God article is plenty long already.--Tznkai 15:32, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

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