Talk:Global warming

This is a controversial topic, which may be disputed. Please read this talk page discussion before making substantial changes. (This message should only be placed on talk pages.)

Contents

1 Archive 2 WikiProject Climate Change 3 Temporary injunction 4 current/2001 4.1 Last 50 years 5 perhaps "not really" anthropogenic is the correct statement 6 Removal of material 7 condescending language 8 CO2 Concentrations in the Cambrian Being Around 7000 ppm 9 Images

Archive

• Alternate layout page is found at /temp.
• Talk:Global warming/OldTalk
• Talk:Global warming/OldTalk2
• Talk:Global warming/OldTalk3
• Talk:Global warming/OldTalk4
• Talk:Global warming/OldTalk5
• /Archive 1
• /Archive 2 (Dec 2004 - Jun 2005)

(new talk at the bottom)

WikiProject Climate Change

Shouldn't there be a WikiProject Climate Change to help coordinate the various articles around the topic? Also, I suggest that it would be worth trying to create a simple entry page aimed at laymen with no knowledge of the subject, sans confusing detail and too many references. Maybe Global warming and Global warming (advanced) - that kind of concept anyway. It would really be useful to have a more stable, easier overview, and keep the discussion of the developing scientific details a little bit tucked away. Take a minute to think about the average reader, people. Rd232 09:04, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be nice! But with such polarised views and with each side minutely inspecting the other's contributions, and (rightly) insisting on citations, I'd be very surprised if any summary would survive a deluge of edits. There seems to be such strong disagreement even on the underlying approach the "Global warming" article(s) should adopt. See, only as a sad example, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/William M. Connolley and Cortonin. Thincat 10:35, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

Worth a try though. I do think since much of the disagreement is about detail, it should be possible to summarise the general issues in a moderately non-controversial way. Does the average reader really want to go straight into scary graphs and discussion about recent data on the effects of urban heat islands? Or be faced with paragraphs like this: A new reconstruction by Moberg, et al, published in Nature 433, 613 - 617 (10 February 2005) [1] (http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nature/journal/v433/n7026/full/nature03265_fs.html) shows both the Medieval Warm Period and Little Ice Age anomalies (although not by name) and concludes that the temperatures around 1000 and 1100 AD were comparable to those of the 20th century before 1990. "Moberg's reconstruction will help to put the record straight in one of the most contested issues in palaeoclimatology," says Hans von Storch. "But it does not weaken in any way the hypothesis that recent observed warming is a result mainly of human activity." [2] (http://www.nature.com/news/2005/050207/full/433562a.html). Moberg's results are consistent with those of Von Storch, et al, who conducted a modeling analysis that showed the variability to be about twice as great as previously published [3] (http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nature/journal/v433/n7026/full/433587a_fs.html)Science 306, 679 - 682 (2004) (http://dx.doi.org/10.1126%2Fscience.1096109|). Rd232 17:15, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 19:57, 5 May 2005 (UTC)) A wikiproject on this might well be a good idea, the articles are probably a maze for the newcomer. I have been advocating shortening the GW article for some time now: in my view it is prone to "stuffing" by the skeptics (see the recent S+V stuff). But, this will be hard to accomplish in the current state, and I think we're all waiting for the arbcomm to see if they provide anything useful to help resolve the dispute(s). OTOH I would argue that much of the current article is quite good, and at least up to A new reconstruction by Moberg... not too detailed.

(William M. Connolley 20:49, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)) OK... I'd like to try to revive this idea: either the wikiproject, or perhaps just the idea of reworking the GW page into a simplified into and a technical page. Anyone else care to sign up?

I'm not opposed to either idea, though I have my doubts. Any thoughts on how one could make a Wikiproject more workable than the current state of affairs? Dragons flight 08:04, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)

You have my moral support for the project, and I'd be happy to help out with developing the text of the simpler GW page. Rd232 17:02, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Here is my proposed simplified version (or will be in a litttle while...): /Global warming (simplified). William M. Connolley 19:58, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC).

Temporary injunction

Copied here from Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/William M. Connolley and Cortonin#Temporary injunction:

Since revert wars between the Cortonin and William M. Connolley have continued through this arbitration, both users are hereby barred from reverting any article related to climate change more than once per 24 hour period. Each and every revert (partial or full) needs to be backed up on the relevant talk page with reliable sources (such as peer reviewed journals/works, where appropriate). Administrators can regard failure to abide by this ruling as a violation of the WP:3RR and act accordingly. Recent reverts by Cortonin [4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Greenhouse_effect&diff=prev&oldid=14076250) [5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Greenhouse_effect&diff=prev&oldid=14072065) [6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Greenhouse_effect&diff=prev&oldid=13847381) [7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Greenhouse_effect&diff=prev&oldid=13828814) [8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Solar_greenhouse_%28technical%29&diff=0) by William M. Connolley [9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Greenhouse_effect&diff=0) [10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ross_McKitrick&diff=prev&oldid=14082906) [11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Global_warming&diff=prev&oldid=14085987) [12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Global_warming&diff=prev&oldid=14077463) [13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Greenhouse_effect&diff=prev&oldid=14083726) Additional reverts by others involved in these revert wars may result in them joining this case.

--mav 22:44, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

current/2001

Silverback changed "current" to "2001" on the grounds that the IPCC report was 2001. But... thats not what the sentence says. The IPCC report still does pretty well summarise current understanding. In particular, the phrase attributed - last 50 y - still stands, and thats still the current understanding. The TAR has dated well. William M. Connolley 20:43, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC).

Reverted back to "current" as per the above; also re-arranged the academies text a bit to make it clear that they are endorsing it as current. William M. Connolley 21:58, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC).

Oh, and JGs unhelpful stuff: the climate has been relatively stable *including* not apart from the MWP/LIA. Indicates is correctly stronger than suggests. And for the last one... JG has edited a direct quote to suit his prejudices: you're not allowed to do that. William M. Connolley 21:58, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC).

Last 50 years

Hmm. The graphs need shading since 1951 labeled "warming mostly attributed to human activities". (SEWilco 01:49, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC))

perhaps "not really" anthropogenic is the correct statement

Oreskes, by her own admission, as documented by the quote admitted that some of those "papers" may have been supporters of natural rather than "anthropogenic climate change. I assume it wasn't WMC that put in the Oreskes info into this article since he is expressing concern about length. Her opinion essay attempting to draw conclusions about positions on anthrogenic global warming based on a survey of mere abstracts is attracting such attention, not because of the quality, reliability, and objectivity of such methods, but because of the popularity of her opinions.--Silverback 18:29, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, so it should be addressed, but if there's something to be pointed out scientifically on reliability or objectivity, then that should be included. And about length - if its too long it can be branched into another article, although its preferred under taxonomical structure. -- Natalinasmpf 19:50, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There is already another article, the issue is why such a questionable opinion essay is being revisited here. It is too complex an issue to be raised in a scientific opinion summary here in this article. It is easy to criticise scientifically the survey that serves as the basis for the opinion essay. It just analyzes abstracts, not the full papers, and finds that positions contrary to anthropogenic global warming are not taken, and calls that "consensus" supporting anthropogenic global warming. Of course, abstracts are not the place where such positions are taken. If taken at all they are more likely to be taken in the discussion section of a paper, since seldom is the large issue of anthropogenic global warming what is being tested by any particular research. So examining just abstracts is poor survey design for the purpose at hand. The objectivity is compromised by a further part of the design, there any article which does not take a position against anthropogenic global warming is assumed to be in agreement with the consensus. This is no more valid than if the opposite assumption were part of the methodology. Would it be fair to assume that any abstract that did NOT take an explicit position in favor of anthropogenic global warming, was opposed to it, and that thus the "consensus" was againt it?--Silverback 21:32, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)

Its not being "revisited" here. And its not a questionnable essay. Its the *only* survey (at all? certainly published in a reputable journal) on the subject. Which is why it gets so much attention. William M. Connolley 22:00, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC).

It is not a published as a peer reviewed research article, but as an opinion essay, so it is more like a guest editorial. In such cases the quality of the journal doesn't matter, just what the editors want to print.--Silverback 02:51, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 20:40, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)) I will defend the quality of Oreskes paper (asserting that it is merely an opinion essay is wrong), but at the same time I'm not necessarily defending its place in the article here. It definitely belongs in SOoGW; given that GW is too long, it might well be removed from the main GW article. So should some other stuff William M. Connolley 20:40, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC).

It's great that there are subarticles for this main one, but that can't be used as a reason to avoid covering important points, as has been done in the past. This article is the main one, so it needs to be written in Wikipedia:Summary style. That means covering all of the most important facets of the topic in relation to their importance, and not excluding any because it is easier to cover them in another article. Of course, that also means prioritization and not covering too much on issues that are not the most important. Now I'm not saying a discussion of Oreskes paper needs to be here, but in support of the scientific consensus on global warming, it should at a minimum be a footnote or other method of citation in this article. The issue of what the scientific consensus is, is definitely one of the, if not the most important point in the article. A paper speaking directly to that point is important to at least be cited, if not discussed. - Taxman ^Talk 21:49, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)</sup>

Removal of material

Silverback, can you explain you change please. Thanks. Guettarda 02:03, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

attempts to reduce global warming are political and do not belong in a science article. Now if there are scientific studies, evaluating the results of attempts to reduce global warming, those would be legit, so far all such attempts are apparently failures.--Silverback 02:17, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

That is completely false. This is just more of the attitude of removing things that need to be covered in the article. The fact that there are people trying to reduce global warming is an important facet of the issue. Pigeonholing this as only a science article is improper. This article is not at Global warming (science), it is the general article, and should dicuss the political ramifications for their part in the issue. However, I don't really see much NPOV, verifiable information removed, so as far as edits to the article go, I don't see a problem. Someone point me to diffs if you disagree. - Taxman ^Talk 13:44, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)</sup>

Its an encylopedic article, discussing both the scientific view and the political view. I think it warrants both. -- Natalinasmpf 02:35, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Declaring that global warming is purely a "science" issue which must be researched to death before anyone lifts a finger is a POV that business increasingly disagrees with. Where else would you have this information, Silverback? Rd232 09:28, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'd have it in a newspaper, or magazine, not an encyclopedia. Where did you find it? Hmmmm.--Silverback 09:41, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

condescending language

Some of the language is pretty condescending and jarring to the reader. Its not that its not neutral, or that its incorrect, it just seems to jar the reader with its tone...I don't know how to say it, but I think some of you might possibly know what I mean. One of the reasons is possibly that it weaves left and right and doesn't seem to have a good flow and presentation, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Pagein presenting a neutral argument. It has to be NPOV, but it should have a proper style in presenting a "neutral point of view", somewhat like a critique with all views in it. -- Natalinasmpf 14:15, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Part of that is that it has been under a near constant edit war, so presentation has taken a back seat. If you see things that need to be fixed in that area, please do so, and be prepared to back them up on the talk page. - Taxman Talk</sup> 14:59, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

I tried cleaning up some clumsy phrasing in the first paragraph, while trying not to alter what I had understood the sense to be. Robert A West 17:35, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'll support what Taxman has said. Do be careful, because some of the language has been fought over, is accurate, and making it non-jarring might make it inaccurate. I altered:

A key example involving carbon dioxide can be relate dto clouds.

The effects of clouds are by no means limited to CO2 forcing (there is no particular reason why clouds should be in the GH theory section at all, they are far more general). In fact (see GW simplified) I think the GHG/Solar split is wrong, and ought to be "attriubution of changes".

I removed:

Much higher levels of C02 have ocurred further back. During the Cambrian Period, carbon dioxide existed in the atmosphere at average concentrations of about 7000 ppm. Today, at 370 ppm our atmosphere is relatively CO2-impoverished, although environmentalists, certain political groups, and the news media would have us believe otherwise.

The last sentence is just POV; the relevance of high CO2 earlier is dubious anyway.

And "heat to be trapped" is a phrase to avoid if poss; T rise is better, I think.

In fact #2, Global warming/Global warming (simplified) is supposed to be an attempt to create a more user-friendly intro to GW. It might well be better off sorting out the language there. William M. Connolley 20:50, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC).

CO2 Concentrations in the Cambrian Being Around 7000 ppm

I was going to add the following: "is relatively low in CO2 - however, even a rise in CO2 concentration to around 700 ppm has in the past increased global average temperature by 10-degrees-C [14] (http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/Carboniferous_climate.html)."

The plot in the reference is compelling: if it is to be believed, then the earth has normally existed at a global average temperature of 22-degrees-C, versus 12-degrees-C now. Of course, West Virginia is a major coal-producing state - if the page is biased, it is biased AGAINST supporting the danger of Global Warming. Too bad they didn't know how to read a graph. Simesa 21:19, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The past much more elevated levels of CO2 provide perspective, for those who fear the world is about to end in a runaway greenhouse effect. Even in the worst case scenerios, we are talking about minor changes that are easily adapted to, especially given the trillions of dollars of wealth the left is willing to just throw out the window in their premature and misguided reaction.--Silverback 22:56, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

I would say the GeoCraft site does have that bias, or more precisely, it tends to run against the notion that global warming is dangerous. However, that does not negate the figure, so lets talk about the figure. The CO2 comes from the GeoCarb III reconstruction and they neglect to plot the enormous error bars. Which make the Cambrian something like 7000 +/- 6000 ppm. Some other reconstructions support much lower numbers in the 1000-2000 range, while others blow it up even higher than 7000. Personally, I think the only thing we can say for sure about those early times is that it was higher than today, but whether it was 2x, 5x, 10x, or 30x is a subject of great uncertainty and debate (I'll provide the refs if you'd like).

The temperature plot is also presented out of context. This is attributed to Scotese and is based almost entriely on climate reconstructions, with essentially no proxy measurements of temperature at all. Basically he looked at the distribution of polar ice and tropical zones. If there was ice over both poles and glaciers in mid-latitude mountains then he assigned a canonical value 12 °C. If there was no ice at the poles or evidence of mountain glaciers then he assigned a rough value of 22 °C. Other values reflect intermediate climate states and a couple well-documented climate events, but for the most part his temperature graph is meant to be very schematic and approximate. It should not be interpreted as suggesting there is some kind of bimodal temperature regime consisting of either 12 or 22. For another point of view on temperature see Image:Phanerozoic Climate Change.png.

I do think information on the history of CO2 and temperature offers useful perspective, but one needs to understand what the data is, how it is being interpreted and present it honestly. GeoCraft chooses to present a plot without discussing it's context or the uncertainty in this understanding. Dragons flight 00:21, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

The point about the error bars is a good one. Past CO2 levels are, I think, only well known back 800 kyr, before that they are often rather uncertain (and at least partially constrained by... climate modelling! So if you don't believe the climate models, you are obliged to throw away at least some of the past CO2 estimates). Err, DF, would you consider drawing a pic of past CO2? It would be useful. William M. Connolley 08:42, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC).

That isn't the point however, the ecosystem has evolved to a 12 degree state now....the Earth now has an oxidising atmosphere, I suppose, which is one of the arguments that plants are dying of carbon dioxide starvation now - back in the Jurassic, the oxygen levels were only at 5% (which actually isn't that bad, if you consider that we only breathe 1-2% of the atmosphere as oxygen, oxygen shortage is usually due to low pressures, not low percentages), and carbon dioxide levels were much higher. Now the ecosystem is much different, and there are a lot of CAM/C4 plants to accomodate carbon dioxide depletion, although I think even those are starving, probably, (that is my observation) due to photorespiration....I'm imagining how already amazing plants are, they are able to produce huge amounts of food from 380 ppm carbon dioxide levels, imagine if it was much higher...I suppose a reason why the dinosaurs died out could have been lack of food from the sudden decrease in growth in plants? Well anyway, I'm just presenting several of the perspectives. I do agree though, that I'd prefer money be spent to say, reduce lethal pollution emissions like sulphur dioxide/acid rain, and all the toxic substances as opposed to carbon dioxide, which it itself needs 15,000 ppm to reach toxic levels. I'm not so much concerned as actual warming though, then more extreme climate, ie. more droughts one area, more floods another (since I already live in a 35 degree Celsius climate anyway). -- Natalinasmpf 00:08, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Cleaning up the air is already to the point of diminishing returns, where additional lives saved cost over $15,000,000 per. We can save far more lives more cost effectively, addressing TB, malaria, cancer, AIDs, prenatal care, etc. The whole global warming scare movement is so inhumane.--Silverback 02:46, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

How exactly does the third sentence follow from the first two? Diminishing returns on cleaning up air (or other pollution) refers to the problem of establishing acceptable concentration levels for pollutants like PCBs, given diminishing returns for health on lowering levels. Unlike greenhouse gases such pollutants are only local in effect, and whilst they build up in the environment, do not risk causing catastrophic runaway changes on a global scale. (By the by, what would it take for you to accept global warming as real and not a "scare"?) Rd232 08:21, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The global warming scare inhumane because it is being used as an excuse to destroy so much wealth that could be put to more humane use, and could even be used to more economically mitigate any climate issues that eventually arise. If the scientific evidence were more consistent, and the models were better that would be good evidence. It would be especially helpful if the models were able to explain the mystery of why runaway warming would happen today, when it didn't at higher GHG levels in the past. Since it will be difficult to obtain enough data on paleo-climates to validate the models, it would really help if models were less parameterized and proved themselves by replicating cloud cover and carbon cycle statistics. If, this confirms signficant climate change, then it would help if realistic analyses of the costs and benefits of different approaches were done. Even though GHG may be causing the change, reducing them may not be the most cost effective mitigation, a realistic assessment may even find that global warming even at the extreme of current model predictions, is not among the top ten issues facing humanity, in terms of both economics and human lives. In fact, it probably shouldn't be a top priority unless there is a REAL runaway scenerio. The remote possibility that it might be, probably justifies funding of further research.--Silverback 23:47, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

I am not going to comment on the political / public policy aspects of your comments, but I will say a couple things about the science. If by "runaway scenario" you mean a Venus type super greenhouse, then I don't believe there are any credible scientists who foresee that kind of a scenario. But there are any number of scenarios where climate might run away from us in the sense that it could shift into a new mode from which it would be incapable of returning to current climate mode within the time scale of millenia. The melting of Greenland or Antarctica are examples, since if those events were to occur then there is absolutely no way those glaciers could be rebuilt on time scales relevant to human experience. Hence, for all practical purposes, humanity would have created a permanent change in climate at these sites (not to mention global changes in sea level). Another is a potential reorganization of the thermohaline ocean circulation that influences heat transfer in the North Atlantic. Other scenarios involve massive expansions of deserts which could then perpetuate climate change even if the CO₂ et al. were removed. Many other scenarios exist, with varying degrees of plausibility, but the point I want to make is that it is these kinds of changes that scientists are usually discussing when talking about "runaway" climate change. In other words, they mean the kinds of changes where climate is so strongly perturbed by what humans are doing that on timescales relevant to humanity, it can no longer return to a state like that which has existed during the last several thousand years of humanity's development. One only needs to look at the ice ages to know that these kinds of climate transitions are possible and have occurred, though perhaps never before as the result of the actions of a single species. How humanity deals with this potential to "break" climate is of course a public policy issue, but as I already said, I'm not interested in discussing public policy right now. Dragons flight 01:03, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

I consider pollution that can cross political borders, travel thousands of miles, infect lakes and streams, damage buildings through acid rain, and devastate the ecology more dangerous than a greenhouse gas that might actually be rather good (directly) to the ecology through proliferation of plant life, while its warming feature being inhibited by naturally controlled processes. That is just my basic stance on it, with of course, a belief it might happen, but I'm not very sure. -- Natalinasmpf 13:14, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Good for ecology? Good grief. Changing climates at the rate that's already happening is destructive of ecosystems, which while tolerant of change within a certain range collapse outside it. A few hardy species, or those most suited to the changed climate, may do well, but most will be affected either directly, or indirectly through effects on prey species, pollinating species, etc. Cockroaches, rats and mosquitoes will do well, but I wouldn't bet the farm on much else doing well 100 years from now if the temperature goes up by 4 degrees (etc etc other effects like drought). Rd232 13:33, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it's a real shame that the Yellowstone area remained totally barren and empty of life after the last glacial covering melted. (SEWilco 18:19, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC))

Also, if you think global warming is just an "environmental issue" that only rich people can afford to worry about, look at this Global warming in Africa: The hottest issue of all (http://news.independent.co.uk/world/africa/story.jsp?story=648282).Rd232 13:44, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

How? Besides farms aren't really part of the ecology either, and I suspect conventional farming will become obsolete within the century anyway, being replaced by more efficient hydroponics and aquaponics methods. You don't get fertiliser running off into the ocean and land wastage through those facilities. Note I said rising carbon dioxide levels in terms of excluding climte change will be good for the ecology, and mitigating any climate change through pre-existing processes. There are plenty of weather processes that prevent a directly proportionate relationship between carbon dioxide levels and temperature increase, however the relationship in photosynthesis and preventing destructive photorespiration is direct. Do you know much crop yields photorespiration destroy every year? Furthermore, forest regeneration levels (to combat deforestation) in North America have risen 30% over the past fifty years, which seems to be directly proportionate to rising carbon dioxide levels. The situation in Africa can be solved by eliminating the cycle of poverty, through liberterian economic reform and prevention of hoarding. -- Natalinasmpf 14:02, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I didn't say anything about farming, I talked about ecosystems. Replacing diverse ecosystems with monoculture is not (ecologically) an improvement even if there is more plant biomass. As for farming, recent large-scale tests indicate that other climate-change related factors (like weather patterns, droughts, ground-level ozone) in practice exceed the CO2 effect. In an age of ever-increasing water scarcity (and increasing energy costs), hydroponics is hardly going to be a solution globally. Your last sentence I could have much to say about, but it's on a different subject so I will resist the temptation to go into it here.Rd232 17:47, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't exactly see how diversity will be compromised, if climate change is mitigated. Yes, there are other factors involved in suppression for plant growth, but carbon dioxide starvation and photorespiration is one of the largest factors...and its not that water is becoming "scarce", more certainly as the more CO2 you produce, the more water you tend to produce (if you're producing it for energy, ie. from mitochrondria to cleaner energy forms anyway, ie. synthetic fossil fuels with minimal contaminants like sulphur and more of dense organic substances)....CO2 is pretty crucial for the production of cellulose, and thus, forest regeneration, because one of the key things about the prehistoric era is that plants grew perhaps, 4 to 5 times faster than they do today, at least in terms of trees - if you observe some of the fossil records, ie. instead of waiting for thousands of years for a forest to form, one could form within decades. This would be crucial for reforestation. What I imagine is to start using cleaner energy sources, and focusing on pollution removal and purification, and other conservation efforts, but not wasting it on limiting energy production or the idea of industry in itself - rather, focus on changing the way of producing energy. The production of carbon dioxide cannot be avoided in producing substantial energy, but the avoidance of pollutants can. Note Singapore: we have a major water dependency, having to buy over 50% of our water, but hydroponics is a favourable point in actually reducing dependency - hydroponics tends to be closed system. Water doesn't get lost, it gets circulated, and then if necessary, run through a filtration system and the water cleansed, somewhat like NEWater. Oh hydroponics doesn't necessarily have to include water - you could have solution sprays spraying roots in air as well, and all of this within a closed (or could be open) system.

Images

Nearly no images related to climatoly and global warming are represented at wikimedia commons. It is possible to transfer at least some of them? --Saperaud 03:17, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You are welcome to transfer any of mine across (I hereby give permission if it is required) but I'm unlikely to do it myself. William M. Connolley 08:35, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC).