Talk:Gaia theory (science)/archive 1

From the article:

that the Earth's biosphere tends to [homeorhic balances]?

Really?

See:

Now I can't find this phrase on the Web, or even Usenet, please tell me where this term is used. Perhaps it is a new scientific term? Please provice cites.

The Anome

Apologies: typo. The term is homeorheic - will fix

Good use of sources, 24. Thank you. User:Ed Poor

Perhaps you meant to say homeorhetic? The Anome ---

Yup, I had a typo of a typo. Whee. OK, this is almost right now. Thanks for hte patience.

as far as I understood, "Gaia Theory" is Margulis's version among several Gaia theories. Hence "Margulis's version of Gaia Theory" is redundant. user:anthere

Since general "Gaia theories"/"Gaia theory" (note lowercase t) are already mentioned earlier (i.e. non-Margulis "Gaia theories"), I don't think that it is necessarily clear that to a reader (since it's easy to miss noticing the capital "T") that it's Margulis' version that we are talking about. In fact, I think the whole article would be better renamed to "Gaia Theory (Lynn Margulis)" so that it is immediately clear from the article title that we are talking about her "Gaia Theory" as opposed to somebody else's "Gaia theory", or rename "Gaia theory" to something else. Having two pages with only a capitalization difference can easily lead to confusion. Lexor 21:32 Apr 25, 2003 (UTC)

Anthere, it appears that we are chasing our tails with editing this page. I was trying to move the page to the correct spelling of homeorhetic rather than homeorhic, but I inadvertantly created the redirect page back to the Lynn Margulis version, before I noticed that you had moved that! Sorry about that. This meant I couldn't move the page, but had to manually cut/paste. I think that "(homeorhic)" should link to "(homeorhetic)" not the other way around. I didn't realize we were editing the same page, so sorry about the confusion -- Lexor 02:37 Apr 26, 2003 (UTC)

sorry :-(

What the heck does "homeorhic" mean? There is no reason to redirect this page to a parenthetically disambiguated term. Keep it simple. --mav

Actually it was a misspelling of homeorhetic. I believe that people wanted to disambiguate the general term "Gaia theory" from the specific term "Gaia Theory", some people wanted "Gaia Theory" to be a redirect to "Gaia theory". I'm confused as to where things stand right now, as I was just trying to fix the spelling mistake moving the page to "Gaia Theory (homeorhetic)" -- Lexor 03:11 Apr 26, 2003 (UTC)

It is confusing and misleading to have three sepaarte pages on the Gaia idea. We should combine them into one. (And of course, maintain the distinction between the general concept, and different scientist's specific formulations of the concept.) I plan on doing this myself; any objections? RK 23:19 3 Jun 2003 (UTC)

absolutely. I *strongly* object. User:anthere

Um, why do you insist on having three separately titled pages for the same topic, with almost identical names? I do not understand. Would you then agree that we could one article titled "Gaia theory", and rename the other two something like "Gaia (Lovelock version)" and "Gaia (Margulis version)" RK 15:07 4 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Agreed, at the very least they should have more distinct names. Theory with a capital "T" just doesn't set this page much apart from Gaia theory. Is there a particular reason you object to merging them into a single article, with separate sections for the various theories? It's particularly ridiculous that Gaia hypothesis begins with the sentence "The Gaea hypothesis is the theory..." Other theories tend to get a single-article overview. See, for example, Theory of evolution or Fundamental theorem of calculus. If one article suffices for those, it should certainly suffice for Gaia theory. -- Wapcaplet 15:30 4 Jun 2003 (UTC)

imho, the Theory of evolution is awfully short and unsufficient. And, if you look carefully, it leads to a series of secondary articles dealing with some of the theories, just as Gaia is doing.

I insist the three pages be separated for the sake of clarity. Though based on the same *initial* theory, the Theory and the Hypothesis diverge quite a lot. It is much clearer to keep different concepts, different formulations from different people at different times on different pages. There is no "one" gaia idea as you indicate, there are several. Putting them together would just bring unnecessary confusion. No, after reflecting, I do not agree with the renaming you propose. It is no good to name a theory by the name of someone. Fist because, an alive author can change her mind later on, and years later propose another theory. This would not invalidate the existance of the first theory, but invalidate the fact the initial inventor does not agree with the theory anymore. Second, because even if the bases of a theory are developped by a first person, it can be lead much further by a second author who might ultimately bring even more to the theory than the initial author. Then, why would the theory be named by the first author ? Look at Theory of evolution for support. Would you support Evolution (Darwin version), Evolution (Lamarck version) ? No, because, there are many evolutionary theories, most being compatibles with the others. And finally, because, these theories and hypothesis are not known under the Margulis Theory or the Lovelock Theory, but under the Gaia Theory and Gaia Hypothesis. If only for this point, it makes sense to identify articles topics under the name by which they are called.

Keeping these pages does not improve clarity. In fact, your actions are obfuscating the issues.

Which actions ? Talking on a talk page ? Ant

And I don't think anyone here is stating that we should unilaterally name a theory after someone.

who is anyone ? Please, cite names here. Who has been saying anything except you and Wapcaplet ? Ant

Rather, you are saying that different people have totally different conceptions of Gaia,

no. The articles are saying that. Obviously. Ant

and you insist on keeping them as separate articles.

well, you insist on reunited them. So what ? Ant

Therefore, we must give these articles names that represent their content.

Therefore, in fact, adding homeorhesis would represent their content more than saying Margulis really. Ant

Right now their names are misleading, and confusing. Your proposed names, however, make things even worse. Most people don't even know what those words mean!

I am ready to admit most people would not understand these words. However, when you state people are confused, I read "you" are confused. Could you precise who is confused ? Ant

We need to use names that people already use, that people will be likely to seach for. BTW, you are mistaken when you say that these names are not known as Lovelock's Gaia hypothesis and Margulis' Gaia hypothesis. While phrased in different ways, they certainly are referred to in this way, including in many college and high school textbooks! RK 19:39 4 Jun 2003 (UTC)

many...that is quite a good reference. Margulis work is not about an Hypothesis, it is a Theory. Ant

Most science textbooks disagree with the way that Anthere is trying to organize this information. Most science textbooks discuss the Gaia issue by having just one section (usually titled "Gaia hypothesis" followed by a breakdown of how different people view this issue. It seems to me that the consensus of contributors here is that it is valid to combine these articles into one page, and only one person is dead set against it. RK 19:39 4 Jun 2003 (UTC)

three contributors are speaking here. I am for keeping them apart. Wapcaplet said I'm not objecting so much to the separation of Gaia theories into three articles as I am to the naming scheme. You said I will reunite them. This is not precisely what I would call a consensus among contributors. Ant

Hoom. Not to be hasty, but, "science textbooks" are not the last word here. The general idea of a Gaia theory goes back a long way and includes some very early spiritual and cognitive views. Johannes Kepler, Lewis Thomas and Buckminster Fuller, Teilhard de Chardin, Lee Smolin, for instance had very specific ideas of what it meant for a biosphere to be like organism, or part of a whole universe that was like one, or for us to live inside either (biosphere or universe). There is overlap with politics, with cosmology (via Anthropic Principle) and theology. Western biology and ecology as now understood do not "own" the concept of "Gaia" or a "theory" about it. It would be scientism to claim that they do. EofT

The danger is that the merged article will then lose all this context and be censored down strictly to the issues Lynn Margulis and other scientific ecologists talk about. At the very least, one must be clear about "gaia theory in cosmology", "gaia theory in politics", "gaia theory in economics", "gaia theory in ecology", "gaia theory in biology", "gaia theory as propaganda". It is really hard also to separate this from similar issues in evolution - maybe a revisiting of all those articles is also required, as there seems to be no gaia theory that is not ultimately talking about evolutionary concepts. In particular Teilhard de Chardin laid out the idea of molecules cooperating to form life, up to them forming complex organisms like us viewing the whole biosphere (ecology) and whole universe (cosmology), as a single evolutionary process. That is the only way to introduce a truly general article, but it would seem to endorse de Chardin's view, so, at least two articles one on the Gaia theory in biology in particular, and one on Gaia theory in general, might be advisable. That keeps science criteria separate from those others. Hm? EofT

I suggested some time ago for clarity some were asking for, that the names be changed by adding (homeorhesis) and (homeostasis) at the end of current names, for these are *precisely* the differences between both. This was focusing on the differences between the theories (permanent difference), rather than focusing on the initial authors (temporary difference). I think putting the three articles all together will be *very* confusing at best.

Adding (homeorhesis) and (homeostasis) at the end would be excellent. I have no particular concern about whether the articles are named after their initial authors, since as you suggest, the theories may change dramatically over time. As for Theory of evolution being insufficient - this is because most of evolution is not theory, but science and fact, hence the majority of it is expounded at evolution.

Some time ago, following disagreement on other articles, little fat budda tried to merge all these articles together. He stated it was not proper that capitalization be kept in titles. Hence that Gaia theory and Gaia Theory could not be kept. I then moved the titles to names such as Gaia Theory (homeorhetic). My move was immediately and with no discussion deleted by Maverick, for two reasons as I understood : first he did not know what homeorhetic meant and second he thought these articles did not need any disambigation. There is little a non-sysop can do when a sysop decide the new title proposed is not good and just delete it with no further discussion. However, since Little Budda dropped the case, I was glad the titles stayed as they have been for more than a year. I fear should these pages be renamed, the new name will probably be deleted again. But I appreciate you agree with them :-).

Additionally, as you point out, there are many different theories of evolution - and yet we don't see Theory of evolution, Theory of Evolution, Theory Of EVOlution, Th30Ry of 3Vo1uT1on etc., they are all brought together under the banner of Theory of evolution, with articles on closely related theories having more appropriately named articles, such as Natural selection. I'm not objecting so much to the separation of Gaia theories into three articles as I am to the naming scheme. -- Wapcaplet 18:22 4 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I understand. What do you suggest then ? The point is it would also be okay to me to rename Gaia theory -> Gaia theories as precisely there are several. But you would probably insist again on naming conventions :-). The fact is it is easier in Theory of evolution, as the children articles have proper names, such as Natural selection. Problem is, this "natural selection" is precisely the terminology used outside of wikipedia. that is the real term. In this case, the real term is Gaia Theory, so why would we rename a theory known under that name to an unknown name, just because of some naming conventions ?

You may also want to look at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (capitalization). -- Wapcaplet

of course. My first contribution to Wikipedia was in march or april 2002. More than a year ago. I also set a good deal of french conventions. However, I think a convention is ...a convention...not a rule :-). look, convention for some animal species is indeed that capitalization can be used on the second word. And sometimes, plural titles are accepted just as well. So, why not renaming theory in theories perhaps ?

I'm familiar with the use of Theorem (capital T) in some areas, particularly in mathematics; when a generalized theory (hypothesis) becomes formalized and proven, it is often capitalized: Theorem of calculus, Four-Color Theorem, etc., but typically these two things are distinguished between theory (the model used for studying something) and Theorem, which is something which can be proven, given a set of axioms. On Wikipedia, most of the mathematical articles seem to use a lowercase "t" on these.

All of this is just my observation, though. I suppose what I am curious about is how, exactly, Gaia Theory is distinct from Gaia theory. Reading some other articles on the web (such as this (http://www.hollowtop.com/cls_html/thestore/Lovelock.htm) and this (http://www.gaianet.fsbusiness.co.uk/gaiatheory.html)), I get the impression that "theory" and "Theory" are interchangable. According to the articles we have now on Wikipedia, Margulis' Theory says that the earth is homeorhetic, rather than homeostatic, but aside from that I don't really understand what the difference is. I'd be gracious if you could give me some other sources that discuss how the Gaia hypothesis (or Gaea hypothesis) and Gaia Theory are distinct from Gaia theory as a whole, or which indicate that the capital T is of significance in the branch of theory begun by Margulis. I must admit I know very little about the field.

As Entmoot explained rightly so, the theory (right now, the small t) is in reality a set of theories on the topic, some of these having quite ancient roots. It is not one concept but a collection of views from very different people of different cultures. Last century, Lovelock and Margulis worked in the light of recent (at that time) knowledge acquired and set an Hypothesis, which is then one of the multiple theories. They set that Hypothesis with observations (Lovelock was a chemist, so it was a lot about the evolution of the atmosphere, such as the fact the composition of the atmosphere has been staying stable for a ages, in spite of volcanic activity, and mostly life drastic evolution). Lovelock propose James Lovelock's proposal that the Earth's climate is homeostasis. In other words, there are self regulating mechanisms which insure its stability.

Margulis, a biologist, (look endosymbiosis), further worked on the topic. She proposed that the climate was not really homeostatic, but homeorhetic (in short, in the long term, the composition of the atmosphere and hydrosphere was stable, but in the short term, the composition is oscillating between set points). This claim is generally considered much more acceptable than Lovelock one. ant

Okay, I get that. I'm fuzzy on what makes Margulis' Gaia Theory (big T) special enough, above and beyond the spectrum of other theories, to warrant its own article. I understand that her claim is generally more acceptable than Lovelock's; is it more acceptable than the other theories, as well? (boy this talk page is getting messy... too many conversations happening at once :)

And to RK - maybe we should try to resolve things here before we start changing the articles. I don't think we have anything near consensus, yet. -- Wapcaplet 20:38 4 Jun 2003 (UTC)

As for using "theories" - this would also go against naming conventions, since nearly every other article on other theories is just at "XXX theory", so I don't see how it's really any better than what we have. -- Wapcaplet 19:50 4 Jun 2003 (UTC)0

You are correct. It is bizarre and untenable to have a Gaia theory (lowercase t) and Gaia Theory (uppercase T) article. No scientists use this terminology, zero, zip. I cannot understand why this set of articles is so fucked up. RK 20:16 4 Jun 2003 (UTC)

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Talk:Gaia theory (science)/archive 1

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