Talk:GNU General Public License

If a person takes a GPL'd work, modifies it, and then sells it to a third party, it is presumably still covered by the GPL. Is the third party allowed to then give away (or sell) this copy he has bought as long as he provides source code, etc? Would he be violating the GPL if he did so? Or would he be violating some other aspect of copyright law? Some discussion of such a scenario would be helpful for the understanding.

This is a non-issue. If someone gives you a copy of something under the GPL, they cannot prevent you from doing anything with it that the GPL permits. Therefore, if you buy a bit of GPL'd software, nothing can stop you from giving away that software, as long as you follow the terms of the GPL. I'm finding it hard to imagine any hypothetical scenario in which this is not obvious; maybe you could elaborate on why you think this is hard to understand?

I think the parent misunderstands the grandparent. I think the grandparent was talking about if A modified X which is copyrighted by B & available to A only under the GPL, and A gave C a modified version (Y) of X without giving C a GPL to his modifications to X. In this case C would not be allowed to distribute Y, but B would be able to sue A for distributing Y to C and A would no longer be able to distribute X or Y. However, it should be noted that, if, in the above example, C had received Y from A under the GPL but the way A distributed Y to C violated the copyright of B on X, C would still be able to distribute Y to others as long as it did not further violate B's copyright on X, but A would no longer be able to distribute X or Y without the permission of B.

--Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesley 05:44, 2004 Nov 15 (UTC)

Outline of the GPL

User:CYD removed the outline that I added because "it imparts no useful information". Untrue. The unfortunate part about the GPL is that it doesn't include a table of contents inline, so an out-of-band table of contents is useful. This wasn't a gratuitous exercise; I generated it myself in my effort to really understand and organize my thinking with regards to GPL, and I hope that sharing it helps others -- RobLa 05:38 Feb 20, 2003 (UTC)

My opinion remains that it is useless, at least in its current form.

Remember that an encyclopedia article is not merely a dumping ground for pieces of information; it is primarily an essay designed to educate a reader on a specific topic. Put yourself in the shoes of the reader, and read through the article, until you get to:

Outline of the GPL

The GPL is divided in to several numbered sections. Below is an outline of version 2 of the GPL:

(followed by a Table of Contents.)

Now ask yourself: what did you learn from that section? My conclusion is "nothing." I applaud your attempt to provide a service to the reader, but I think that, in its current form, it adds nothing to the article and acts only as a distraction.

I disagree. The GPL is an important legal document. The structure of the document is a useful piece of information for someone who is going to tear into it.

What would be useful is an outline accompanied by discussion and commentary of each section in turn. Would you like to take on this project? -- CYD

I agree that would be more useful, and perhaps I will take on that project. Not today. -- RobLa 07:45 Feb 20, 2003 (UTC)

Criticisms section needed

This article badly needs a criticisms section. Would need to deal with all common criticisms, the ~~crack smoking~~ legally incorrect and correct, and the philosophical. Is there a handy page with a pile of them? - David Gerard 11:41, Feb 26, 2004 (UTC)

Removed GPL-Licensed software

Moodle

Freshmeat and sourceforge are owned by OSDN, an organisation founded on the ideals of the GPL. You cannot cite them as a reference to the GPLs popularity without inducing bias.

Darrien 03:21, 2004 Apr 19 (UTC)

(This stands in contrast to the end-user licenses used for most proprietary software, which often restrict the user's rights rather than expand them.)

I didn't like these lines (and they were removed before my edit). The point is that any license is granting a person more rights than they had before. Before I bought Microsoft Office, I didn't have the right to use it on my machine. Agreeing to the license gave me more rights. In no way were my rights further restricted by the license (I could do all of the things I could do before, plus I can use Word)... it's more important to contrast that the GPL gives even further and significant rights than usual. It is a large distortion, however, to act like traditional EULAs remove anything.

The problem is that, arguably, you don't need the license to use Office, any more than you need a license to read a book that you bought. This is debated, but arguably for running a program, making personal backups, etcetera, the fair use rights that copyright law gives you by default are enough. This is also why proprietary EULAs typically require a click to "Agree" or some such thing—unlike the GPL, they can't assume that you agree merely by using the "rights" granted in the license, because you might well have those rights anyway. Most of the EULA, in contrast, typically takes away rights (or tries to)—the right to reverse-engineer, publish benchmarks, write reviews, resell the software, sue the company for failing to do what it advertises... This is the whole point of why the validity of EULAs is debated. —Steven G. Johnson

Well, the problem for the encyclopedia entry is that it's arguable. You've argued that rights are taken away; however I argue that only new rights are given... they just aren't as extensive. If I write a program on my own, and leave it only on my hard drive, am I taking away your right to use it? No, because you never had the right to use it in the first place. Had we set up a contract to grant you use of any program on my machine, then you would have the right. Note that the discussion of rights are in context to the rights granted by law, not the abstract rights from philosophy. MShonle 23:33, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

One unarguable fact is that proprietary EULA's rely on explicit user indication of consent (by clicking a button etc.), whereas the GPL relies only on the fact that, under copyright law, you don't have any rights without it. Because of this, debates about the validity of EULAs and about the validity of the GPL are quite distinct.

A second unarguable fact is that the GPL only grants you rights that you did not previously have under copyright law. Most EULAs, in contrast, purport to take away rights you would otherwise have, e.g. often that of reverse engineering and even the right to resell (see First sale doctrine). (Whether an EULA grants you, in return, any rights that you would not otherwise have is, as I admitted from the start, a hotly debated point.)

Regarding your hypothetical example of a program kept private on your hard drive, it is fairly irrelevant to the case of proprietary software. With proprietary software, I have already legally obtained a copy of the software and therefore have certain rights by default under copyright law, whereas if it's still on your hard drive I have not obtained a copy and have no rights to it. —Steven G. Johnson 03:50, Apr 20, 2004 (UTC)

My point is that it's silly to act like anyone has a right to steal other people's work if they don't want it to be stolen. I don't have a right to reverse engineer Office, but what makes you think I "should" have that right? The point about the hard drive is that it's clearly something that I own and is mine. Microsoft just happens to distribute it, but they still are the owners and can decide what to do with it. It's their own right. I never had claim to the right reverse engineering it in the first place, so no right was taken away. I'm playing Devil's advocate here, because I think the GPL is a great thing. I just don't care for the hyperbole. MShonle 05:26, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

You're changing the subject; as you agreed a little bit ago, we're talking here about legal rights, not philosophical rights. I didn't say you "should" have that right, I said that you do: reverse engineering is legal (at least in the US, and I believe in most countries), unless you assent to a contract prohibiting it. Similarly for the right of first sale, the right to publish reviews of software, "fair use" copying rights, etcetera. —Steven G. Johnson 07:28, Apr 20, 2004 (UTC)

If someone believes these lines are important for the encyclopedia entry, you should note that the above line is a paraphrase of the preable to the GPL: "The licenses for most software are designed to take away your freedom to share and change it." Thus, if you really want to see the line in this entry, I think you should directly quote it instead.

I think it's important to make a distinction between how the GPL works and how a typical EULA works, but as a factual matter, not so much as a description of the intent of the GPL framers. However, this is a complicated issue and should probably go in the "contract vs. license" section. —Steven G. Johnson 22:23, Apr 19, 2004 (UTC)

See also this review (http://www.cyber.com.au/cyber/about/comparing_the_gpl_to_eula.pdf) of the Microsoft EULA's restrictions. The "analysis" in that article is indisputably advocating a certain editorial point of view, but their list of restrictions that the EULA imposes on the user is a matter of fact, and it is equally fact that many of those restrictions prevent you from doing things that copyright law would normally allow to a person possessing a legal copy of a work. The same is not true for the GPL. Please don't confuse this with arguments over whether those restrictions are "right" in a philosophical sense. —Steven G. Johnson 07:28, Apr 20, 2004 (UTC)

Freshmeat and Sourceforge "bias"?

The article states parenthetically that these two sites are owned by OSDN, which "strongly advocates" the GPL. First of all, what is the evidence that OSDN strongly advocates the GPL relative to other free-software licenses?

You're joking right? Have you ever read slashdot, also owned by OSDN? There is no "The articles here do not reflect the opinions of OSDN or any of its parent companies." type disclaimer anywhere to be seen.

Slashdot is a joke, your point?

No, my point was clearly stated above.

If they have an editorial bias, it's towards flamewars that attract posters, and they know that any posting about the GPL is liable to rile people up...whether it's "pro" or "con". Besides, since their journalistic or editorial work on most articles is roughly nil, it's hard to see the site as representing anyone other than their readers, who provide most of the flames. And the site has been like that since well before OSDN. Besides, see below.

There is also the fact that OSDN owns linux.com. Or how about the latest headlines on newsforge.com, also owned by OSDN.

"To Linux or not to Linux"

"Researchers envision the Linux of routing"

"Banks look at Linux switch"

"Linux: unfit for national security?"

"Linux insurance goes on sale"

"First [linux] InstallFest in Egypt"

"Linux Security Controversy"

and a poll "SCO has how long left to live?"

Yup, OSDN indisputably has a commercial interest in Linux and software for Linux. But "Linux" in this sense is the whole operating system, which is not under a particular license, nor does promoting the operating system equate to promoting a particular license.

I disagree. I've seldom seen anyone advocate Linux without at least a passing mention of the GPL or some of its ideals.

It is perfectly possible to write non-GPL software for Linux, so it's not intrinsically biased...if you see the GPL mentioned a lot with Linux, maybe it's because the GPL is a very popular license for software on that operating system?

This is a straw man argument. Additionally, assuming that the GPL is a popular license for software on Linux, it doesn't mean that the GPL is popular on all platforms.

(Indeed, many promotions of Linux, including on OSDN, tout proprietary software like Oracle on Linux.) In any case, since Linux is the most popular open-source OS (yes, I know about the BSDs, but they don't have the numbers Linux does, not counting OS X which is mainly proprietary...this is not a value judgement, just a statement of fact),

It that case, would you care to back up that statement with some facts?

Oh, give me a bloody break—now you're just making trouble.

No, I made a legitimate request asking you to backup your assertations.

Any reasonable person would concede that Linux is more popular than BSD; just look around.

This is a logical fallacy, you are shifting the burden of proof.

Google gives 98mil hits for "Linux", 6mil for "BSD".

That only proves that the word "Linux" occurs more frequently than "BSD".

It's easy to find studies of Linux market share, but most stories on market share don't even list BSD separately—e.g. this 2003 IDC survey (http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB20031008S0013?fb=20031028_software) was summarized in the press as 23% Linux, 11% "Unix", 55% Windows, 10% Netware, and 1% remaining (I assume that BSD is some fraction of the 11%, which also includes Solaris et al.).

From the article you quote: "Linux's share of new paid license shipments in 2002 increased to 23.1 percent from 22.4 percent in 2001." (emphasis mine)

Searches on Factiva and Lexis-Nexis news databases reveal countless more articles mentioning "Linux" than "BSD" in the last year (more than 30 times...I can't give an exact statistic quickly because they return only a limited number of search results at a time).

Articles mentioning Linux do not reflect its popularity.

This is not the most likely conclusion.

I have nothing against BSD, it's just clearly not as widespread. —Steven G. Johnson 09:41, Apr 20, 2004 (UTC)

I'm still waiting for proof that BSD is "clearly not as widespread".

Sigh...yes, despite the fact that every where you turn, "Linux" pops up more frequently than "BSD", it is conceivably possible that BSD is secretly more popular. But this is not the most parsimonious conclusion to draw, and the burden of proof for violating Occam's razor falls upon the claimant. Anyway, I'm not going to waste time arguing this with you, as I doubt you'll be convinced by anything short of a multi-million-dollar multi-year study to prove the obvious, and this argument has ceased to be relevant to the article. —Steven G. Johnson 18:00, Apr 20, 2004 (UTC)

Darrien 10:12, 2004 Apr 20 (UTC)

it's almost inevitable that any popular listings of free/open-source software will be associated with Linux to some degree.

Second of all, even if that claim is true, what relevance does this have for the statistics on projects listed on FM and SF, since the project listings are maintained by volunteers not affilated with OSDN? —Steven G. Johnson 22:23, Apr 19, 2004 (UTC)

The fact that OSDN strongly supports Linux and the GPL will tend to draw in like minded thinkers.

Darrien 04:08, 2004 Apr 20 (UTC)

Linux != GPL.

What does this statement mean?

How about the obvious, that you're conflating association with Linux with promotion of the GPL.

How do you find such a cryptic statement to be obvious? Why not just say that you believe that I'm conflating Linux with the promotion of the GPL?

If you think that the tens of thousands of free-software projects listed on those sites are not representative of free-software development, where are all the "representative" FOSS developers listing their programs?

Assuming that your use of the term "FOSS" means "Free/Libre Open Source Software", I never said such a thing. I said that they are not representative of the GPLs popularity.

If you look at BSD software listings (which might arguably be biased against GPL software, and which are arguably less representative since they are listings for particular OSes, and less-popular OSes than Linux to boot), NetBSD lists about 4600 packages (no license statistics) and FreeBSD lists 10703 ports. Even if you assume that all of the FreeBSD ports are non-GPL and and that all are not listed on FM or SF, when combined with the SF listings you still have almost 60% GPL usage. And a quick spot check reveals that many of the Free/NetBSD ports/packages are indeed also listed on Freshmeat, so the above assumptions are excessively conservative. —Steven G. Johnson 07:28, Apr 20, 2004 (UTC)

There are also some other statistics (most of them somewhat older) at this essay (http://www.dwheeler.com/essays/gpl-compatible.html). I realize that it's difficult to get reliable statistics,

That is the exact point I am trying to make. It's not possible to get reliable statistics, therefore, you cannot claim with any degree of reliability that the GPL is "The most popular" or "Very popular".

Any reasonable definition of "very popular" would include being used for tens of thousands of projects. —Steven G. Johnson 09:15, Apr 20, 2004 (UTC)

Absurd. If we assume that to be true then we must also assume that a religion followed by tens of thousands of people is very popular.

If there were only tens of thousands of people on the Earth, that would indeed be a reasonable statement. And, in the case of free software, every available listing of such software, from FreeBSD to Debian to Freshmeat to Tucows, lists no more than tens of thousands of items. Please don't dig in your heels in such an unreasonable way, so that every obvious point must be debated with you. —Steven G. Johnson 18:03, Apr 20, 2004 (UTC)

Darrien 10:12, 2004 Apr 20 (UTC)

but I think the implied effect of the alleged pro-GPL bias of OSDN on FM/SF statistics is overstated.

Darrien 08:57, 2004 Apr 20 (UTC)

There are several studies claimed in the current version of the article. Specifically:

"A 2001 survey of Red Hat Linux 7.1 found that 50% of the source-code lines were licensed under the GPL."

"A 1997 survey of Metalab, then the largest free-software archive, showed that the GPL accounted for about half of the licenses used."

These studies need to be cited somewhere in the article, or they will be removed.

Darrien 09:12, 2004 Apr 20 (UTC)

Both of these surveys are referenced in the [1] (http://www.dwheeler.com/essays/gpl-compatible.html) link, which is already referenced by the article. If you want to add inline citation information, go ahead. —Steven G. Johnson 09:15, Apr 20, 2004 (UTC)

"More restrictive"

Darrien, you keep changing the sentence:

The GPL differs from non-copyleft free-software licenses, such as the BSD or MIT Licenses, in that the latter allow derivative works to be distributed under more restrictive terms.

because, you say, the words "more restrictive" sound "POV". The only problem with your argument is that this statement is a precise statement of fact, which should not be subject to controversy, and all of your proposed replacement terms are more vague.

You have proposed writing, for example, that non-copyleft licenses allow derivative works under "different" terms, or "with additional terms". Both of these statements, while correct, are more vague than "more restrictive" — non-copyleft licenses do not allow you to remove terms, or to add terms that effectively remove restrictions (e.g., "If you send me $100 you are exempt from clause 4"). "More restrictive terms" is more precise in that it does not permit such incorrect interpretations. You claim it is "POV", but you haven't provided any argument as to how it implies anything that is subject to debate.

—Steven G. Johnson 17:49, Apr 20, 2004 (UTC)

In theory, you are correct. But in practice, you really can't distribute derivatives under less restrictive terms either, as you would need permission of the other copyright holders to do so.

Also, if "under different terms" is correct, then it is more specific, not more vague.

After some thought, I came up with this phrasing: "The GPL differs from non-copyleft free-software licenses, such as the BSD or MIT Licenses, in that the latter do not require derivative works to be distributed under identical terms." I think that addresses both points, and is actually more accurate than any phrasing which uses the opposite phrasing, since what the GPL actually says is that you must license derivatives under the GPL, not that you can't license them under X, Y, or Z. anthony (see warning)

? You're not contradicting me—my point was precisely that a non-copyleft license doesn't allow you to change to less restrictive terms, only to more restrictive terms.

Re-think your logic. "Under different terms" more vague because it includes both correct and incorrect interpretations—it doesn't give you enough information to distinguish between the two. (In the same way that if X is a square, it is correct to say that X is a rectangle but more vague.)

Your version only implies that the BSD versions differ from the GPL in that they do not require identical terms, which is semantically equivalent to saying that they allow different terms, which suffers the same vagueness problem as before. —Steven G. Johnson 21:38, Apr 20, 2004 (UTC)

I disagree with all your points. This phrasing is less vague, not more vague. The GPL requires that you must license derivatives under identical terms. It does not say anything about more or less restrictive terms. The currently phrasing, "The GPL differs from non-copyleft free-software licenses, such as the BSD or MIT Licenses, in that the latter allow derivative works to be distributed under more restrictive terms than themselves, whereas the GPL requires identical terms.", while confusing, is pretty much accurate though. The confusion is that you can license GPL derivatives under more restrictive terms, as long as you also license them under the GPL (hmm, I need to change "distributed" to "licensed" as I believe that's what you meant). anthony (see warning) 20:36, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Is that last sentence true? If I derive from a GPL'd work, I'm not aware that I'm allowed to distribute it under any license other than the GPL, regardless of whether I also offer a GPL'd version. The only situation in which it would make sense to do that would be if I were charging extra for the GPL'd version (since otherwise nobody would be interested in the more restrictively licensed version), and I'm pretty sure that's explicitly prohibited.

purport to

"In contrast, end-user licenses for proprietary software rarely grant these rights, and may even purport to restrict activities, such as reverse engineering, that are normally permitted."

I added "purport to", because EULAs which claim to ban reverse engineering are not always enforcible. I wonder if this sentence isn't redundant though, as proprietary software by definition doesn't grant these rights. anthony (see warning)

Proprietary software can sometimes grant limited versions of these rights, e.g. to distribute binary copies without royalty. But I think the main distinction is that the GPL strictly expands your rights under copyright law, whereas EULA's often purport to restrict at least some rights you might otherwise have (it's true that the enforceability of such provisions is debated in some circles). This is true for most (all?) free-software/open-source licenses, of course, but it comes up most often in the case of the GPL because people more often question the GPL's enforceability. —Steven G. Johnson 21:49, Apr 20, 2004 (UTC)

Am I missing something, or is your comment completely unrelated to the change I made? Or were you referring to my second sentence, in which case I still don't understand how your point is relevant. Proprietary software by definition does not grant rights that the GPL does. anthony (see warning) 20:41, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

GPL upheld in German court

From news.com.com (http://news.com.com/2100-7344-5198117.html):

"The case involves netfilter/iptables, open-source networking software for tasks such as firewalls for protecting a network from unwanted traffic. Harald Welte, one of the main netfilter authors, sued a Dutch company, Sitecom, alleging it used the software in a wireless network product without abiding by the terms of the General Public License (GPL)."

Changes by MrJeff

here (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=GNU_General_Public_License&diff=0&oldid=4459920), this needs to be explained, provide info from official sources such as Stallman or Eben Moglen that it will not be complete, until this it is just speculation and FUD. --Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 20:57, 2004 Jul 5 (UTC)

I agree, at the very least this should be cited, and attributed if not from an official source. anthony (see warning)

GPL v3 will be incompatible - but that doesn't matter, because the value of calling it "GPL" and it being issued by the FSF is that the typical licensing says "GPL v2 or later" - so the program becomes multiply-licensed. That Linux is explicitly under v2 and only v2 is important, however, and should probably be noted. v3 could do with a section - David Gerard 21:58, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Of course, we could say it is in planning and that it's being worked on and numerous issues are being worked out, see the allegro GPL for example which is sort of a testing ground for the FSF. However, unless you're stallman or something has transpired in the last few days you dont really know how v3 will be, i even think he doesnt know yet. So anything about the GPLv3 other than it is in progress would just be speculation that doesnt belong in an encylopedia article.

If people want to write something fine. Just know that anything about the GPLv3 at this point other than in progress and done when it's done is factually incorrect as nothing has been released on it yet, and statements that it will be incompatable are certanly incorrect. --Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 22:43, 2004 Jul 5 (UTC)

I'm happy to wait until the final v3 comes out if you like. Stallman and others have said (unoffically I will admit) that the GPL v3 will include various explicit clauses about licensing patents. Due to the design of the GPL v2, the only way a licence can be "GPL compatable" is if the software can be relicensed under v2, and notes about patents will invalidate this. Linus has also said that the GPL won't move from v2. However, there is no harm in waiting until when v3 comes out, in 30 years or so ;)

I changed the release date based on my wager with Bradley Kuhn, FSF's associate director. Also, I changed "will" to "may" for license provisions; nothing is fixed. Finally, added a bit about Trusted Computing based on Moglen's statements at FSF's associate member meeting in 2003. --User:Novalis

Changes to a paragraph by David Gerard

The licensee is only required to provide the source code to people who receive [...]. (This may be changed for version 3 of the GPL.)

Would you like to cite some sources on that one, or alternatively remove it. --Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 16:19, 2004 Jul 8 (UTC)

Yes, I'd like to cite this article, in the ==History== section. Note the last paragraphs and the external pages linked as references - David Gerard 17:00, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

About the Softpanorama link

An IP address has added a link to a Softpanorama article about the GPL. I haven't read that article but Softpanorama have previously published troll articles about Richard Stallman and Eric Raymond (and maybe others). The Softpanorama format is to mix two parts fact with one part non-verifiable fiction ("Joe wrote X, was awarded Y, and wets the bed" kinda thing).

I don't know if this article contains such torpedos (maybe "GPL can't be commercial", "GPL was written by communists", "GPL is viral", etc.), but I just thought I should mention my previous experience with Softpanorama articles. Gronky 14:31, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The section "1.6.1. Twelve Candidates for the Inclusion into GPL FAQ" has serious errors Example: "Does GPL approves some types of social behavior that generally contradict the logic of the copyright law and academic ethics principles ?"

The GPL, as a document, is unable to approve of anything. Does it permit behaviors which "contradict the logic of copyright law"? Yes and no, of course. It doesn't permit copyright infringement (duh -- how could it?), but it does challenge the structure of copr. law.

"How does the right to redistribute the code conflicts with the security of the code?"

This is widely discussed elsewhere, in a much less POV fashion (see Schneier, for instance).

"What number of GPL amendments still preserves the compatibility of a product with other "more pure" GPL products without violating paragraph 4 of GPL"

This is a major misunderstanding for two reasons: 1. There is no compatibility problem, because the Linux license is strictly more permissive than the pure GPL, and all such licenses are compatible (see the actualFAQ). 2. Section 4 of the GPL is the wrong section to cite -- 2b and 6 would be more correct.

For these reasons and many more (I don't have space to discuss all that's wrong with question 4), I've removed the link.

I'm well aware that I'm not exactly neutral on this issue, but in this case, I think I'm justified in removing the link. I know that not everything Wikipedia links to will be accurate, but in general, it's better to link to more accurate than less accurate information. Novalis 08:24, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

About Moglen

Eben didn't join Stallman at FSF until after GPLv2 was released. He is working on v3. Novalis

Computer law category?

If the GPL belongs in Category:Computer law, then don't all free software licenses belong there? And if they do, then shouldn't Category:Free software licenses simply be a sub-category of Category:Computer law? -- Khym Chanur 05:23, Nov 15, 2004 (UTC)

District court for MySQL AB v Progress NuSphere

Now, given that I don't know the case reference, saying that it was in the U.S. district court, first circuit is misleading since there's, I believe, 5 districts in that circuit. Looking it up here (http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/ilaw/ipalternatives.htm), it mentions Judge Saris in the U.S. District Court for the District of Massachusetts. Can anyone verify that this was where the case was tried? It sounds like they settled prior to going to the Appeals Court, which would be the United States Court of Appeals for the First Circuit. --Ricky81682 04:13, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)

I can (and do!) verify it; I was at the hearing. They actually settled prior to a final judgement from the district court. Novalis 23:31, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Added clarity

I think this (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=GNU_General_Public_License&oldid=9968123) version of the article adds clarity, at least one person disagrees, what do others think? How is the latest version of the BSD license not public domain exactly? Why did the original clean up get rid of the statement that I think encapsulates the differing philosophies between the BSD and GPL camps, namely "restrictions" vs "protections". What about all the other clean ups? zen master T 15:03, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Read the BSD license. It requires that some invariant (copyright notice and license) go with the distribution. BSD is not a Copyleft license, but it's clearly not Public Domain, either.
The GPL offers rights to anyone and everyone, even if they happen to be neither developer nor "consumer" (btw, are software users "consumers" now?).
Replacing "require" with "use" relating to EULAs doesn't make much sense (I agree with adding 'companies', though).
Adding "or protections" seems gratitous and confusing. For the author of a derivative work, the copyleft clause is a restriction. And that's what the text already says right there. If you must mention "protections", please make it clear that it's a different take on the same clause and not relating to some different clause. Rl 16:59, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I agree "public domain" is not ideal but I think it's more accurate than what was there before which was "permissive". BSD is basically "public domain" with a few minor added conditions like keeping original license with the software and docs, plus an advertising clause which was notably dropped from the more recent version of the BSD license, right? For GPL comparative discussion purposes the BSD is a "public domain" license but I am not advocating changing the BSD license article to that. The point of comparing the GPL with the BSD license in the article is to contrast the licenses.

The point about offering rights to both developers and end users is important, that is how freedoms are protected in that it assumes everyone is equal, no one has the right to take away another's freedom if everyone has equal rights, the license tries to encapsulate that. Saying "all" doesn't point out the explicit nature of a user/consumer and developer having equal footing under the license. I agree we can improve the wording on this point.

"require" seems like the more appropriate word, are proprietary software companies "using" their licenses against end users? "Using" does not factor in an end user role in the license process. More accurate to say end users are required to agree to the EULAs before using the software, which is true.

As far as "or protections" goes that is exactly how the pro GPL people would characterize the GPL's derrivative works clauses, whereas pro-BSD people would say they are "restrictions", the article should convey both ways of looking at the license, shouldn't it? zen master T 17:16, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I remain entirely unconvinced. "Permissive" is a perfectly good word, while "Public Domain" is wrong, but you would have us believe that it's "more accurate"?? In many jurisdictions, EULAs are not enforceable; companies would like people to agree, that's all; how is that "required"? And while I tend to favor the GNU GPL over the BSD license in most cases, I prefer to call a restriction a restriction (why don't you rewrite "requires derivative works" in the sentence before that to "entitles users of derivative works" which would be much more positive as well?).Rl 17:54, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

That is the point, you say they are restrictions while there is another perfectly valid interpretation that they are protections, so the article should include both. BSD is public domain as far as contrasting with the GPL goes, please describe how it isn't? If EULAs are not enforceable how are they being "used" exactly? "entitles" is ok by me. zen master T 18:02, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Zen-master changed "The purpose of the GPL is to grant the right... to the recipients of the program" to "The purpose of the GPL is to grant both developers and consumers the right...". This is not an improvement. The GPL only grants rights to people who receive a program; developers and consumers in general do not receive this rights. The right to keep modifications private is an important feature of the GPL.

Code issued under the BSD License is copyrighted; it is explicitly not public domain, which has a very specific legal meaning. The BSD License comes with certain terms; for example, a disclaimer of warranty. The use of the term "permissive" to describe the BSD License is almost canonical. For instance, from the GNU website says (http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html) (emphases mine):

X11 License: This is a simple, permissive non-copyleft free software license, compatible with the GNU GPL.
Public Domain: Being in the public domain is not a license--rather, it means the material is not copyrighted and no license is needed. Practically speaking, though, if a work is in the public domain, it might as well have an all-permissive non-copyleft free software license. Public domain status is compatible with the GNU GPL.
Modified BSD license: This is the original BSD license, modified by removal of the advertising clause. It is a simple, permissive non-copyleft free software license, compatible with the GNU GPL.

Hope this helps. -- CYD

CYD is generally correct here. I should note that the grant that modifiers grant (2b and 6) is to the world, but only goes into effect upon distribution (2b) -- Novalis 10:07, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Ok, the BSD License is not "public domain" I agree now, but stating that the BSD is "more permissive" than the GPL is POV (especially if "or protections" is also removed from the article). I cleaned that up and made some other hopefully less controversial changes. Let me know if you disagree. zen master T 12:48, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Just how is it POV? -- CYD

"permissive" is presumming the pro BSD interpretation of the GPL, see what I wrote above, the pro GPL people would say the derivative works clauses are protections, whereas pro BSD people and others argue they are restrictions. "conditions" is an improvement but I am not sure about your other changes.

Why did you put "freedoms" in quotation marks? zen master T 13:24, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Also, if you persist in using "permissive" then I am going to have to insist "restrictions or protections" be put back. That section of the article is contrasting the differences between the BSD and GPL licenses, so that phrase IS the *key* difference. People that license their works under the BSD do not see any need for the GPL's "restrictions", whereas people that license their works under the GPL do see the need for "protections", see the distinction? We need to capture both ways of looking at the issue, rather than using the neutral middle of the road term "conditions" which misses the core issue.

You made a lot of changes to bottom parts of the article for your checkin comment to be just "clarifications". zen master T 13:31, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Even the GNU webpage describes the BSD and related licenses as simple and permissive -- they give the user a broad set of permissions, and impose a relatively small number of conditions. It's not POV to state that the GPL imposes more conditions - just look at how much longer it is. As for the dispute between the two camps, that is described in significant detail later on in the article. (Incidentally, I have released software under the GPL, and I think of myself as a pro GPL person.) -- CYD

I left the word permissive in there, but if we have a section that contrasts the BSD with the GPL then I think "restrictions or protections" is the essence of the contrast, please make a case for disagreement on this specific point. You being "pro-GPL" has nothing to do with accurately capturing the essence of the contrast inside the article. zen master T 13:57, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

GPL simply stated

I think the following captures the GPL simply but CYD keeps reverting this change without stating why (please do here), what do others think?

The purpose of the GPL is to grant everyone the right to copy, modify, and redistribute computer programs and source code freely. It requires that all changes and derivative works be distributed freely as well with the source code made publically available.

We can add something to the effect of "It requires [under copyright law] that all changes and derivative works be distributed freely..." zen master T 13:36, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

See my comments above: The GPL only grants rights to people who receive a program; developers and consumers in general do not receive this rights. The right to keep modifications private is an important feature of the GPL. -- CYD

Uhhh, that is not a feature of the GPL that is how copyright law works (the GPL IS a copyright license). I am no longer saying "developers and consumers" you reverted my change that said "everyone", why? What is wrong with using the word "freely"? I think that word is good because it encapsulates free as in freedom. zen master T 13:54, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I won't let myself be dragged into an edit war, but I want to state clearly that I do not agree with the changes that are claimed to "clarify" things. Licenses "grant" rights, they don't "encapsulate" them. How could this possibly clarify anything? You need to repeat the term "license", BSD by itself is not correct. Etc. pp. The only change that has some merit is "like" to "such as". Rl 18:00, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

You fail to note that many of the changes the last day or so have been accepted without hassle, I think we are working towards improvement. Everyone's concerns are being addressed. The "encapsulate" is refering to the list of freedoms specifically -- that list does indeed encapsulate what is granted (at verbose length) in the GPL. We should rewrite the BSD sentence so we don't have to write "license" twice, which is annoying. zen master T 18:19, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Update: Rl, I made changes based on the points you raised above, let me know what you think. zen master T 18:34, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Sorry about my earlier rant. I just fail to see the need for many changes you propose, and I am only objecting to those that I think make things worse. The BSD license sentence is alright now I guess. But this encapsulation thingy is only getting worse: You say above that the list in the article encapsulates what is granted in the GPL, but the article states that the GPL encapsulates something. See the difference? I still fail to see what was wrong with "grant" in the first place. Secondly, the GPL does not do a "grant of copyright". Copyrights remain with their owner -- the GNU GPL is a license that grants certain rights under certain conditions. Among those rights is a right to redistribute, but a right to make a copy is not a copyright. Also, you removed "the recipients"; as CYD pointed out before, the GPL only grants those rights to people who receive software governed by that license. We need to mention somewhere that changes to GPL'ed software need not be shared as long as they are neither published nor distributed.Rl 19:27, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Well, the freedoms lists is what the GPL is trying to encapsulate under copyright law but your criticism is valid. What I mean by grant is "grant of usage" but you are right it's not clear. It might be more accurate to say "the GPL is encapsulated by..." but that sounds funny, how about "Simply stated, the GPL is a copyright license that attempts to encapsulate the following freedoms", instead of encapsulate we could use "protect" or "ensures" or something better. The point i was trying to make was that the list of freedoms isn't what is being "granted" in the GPL, rather, the GPL was created with the aim of achieving the freedoms in the list (perhaps chicken vs egg). What do you mean when you say the right to make a copy is not a copyright? I agree we should add something to the effect that derivative works need not be shared unless they are distributed but that is true for all copyrighted works, that point is not specific to the GPL, right? zen master T 19:50, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I'd remove "under copyright law". The sentence starts with "the purpose"; copyright is a circumstance or a means. Your suggestion "the GPL is a copyright license" seems a better way to mention copyright (btw: Copyright license, anyone?). -- What I meant is that if I grant you to make a copy of my work under certain conditions, I am still the owner of the copyright; all you got is a copyright license; IOW, copyright is an exclusive right. -- Actually, proprietary software typically prohibits any changes to the code, so you never get to wonder whether you may or must share them. However, in some jurisdictions running a program is considered copying (from harddisc to RAM), so requiring the publication of private changes would be legally enforceable. That private changes don't have to be shared was an about-face for RMS and it is also important because it is now famously a loophole for web service providers. -- Please drop "encapsulate", that word doesn't make sense here.Rl 21:12, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Lesser General Public License

The fact that LGPL is used for libraries is misleading and should be clarified, or removed entirely leaving only a link to LGPL article. gnu.org (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/why-not-lgpl.html) Helix84 18:46, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Unfortunately, lots of people do use the LGPL for their libraries when the GPL might be better. The common thought is LGPL for libraries, GPL for apps. The article should acknowledge this, as well as noting the FSF's view that of where the LGPL is appropriate. -- Novalis 20:10, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Please clarify re: "viral" claim

I still can't figure out whether or not if you include a tiny snippet of GPLed source code in your non-GPL program, that you have to make your entire program subject to the GPL as a result? The section on the "viral" claim seems to dodge around this issue without addressing exactly what I'm asking here (and I think this question is the fundamentally most important point of getting a grasp of the "GPL is viral" claim), so all I have to go by is "Microsoft says vs. Wikipedia says" and I don't think I can trust either source at the moment to interpret the GPL in a clear, straightforward manner. Can someone clarify this once and for all without running around in circles, PLEASE?

edit: and just to clarify myself, I recognize: "The GPL is clear in requiring that all derivative works of GPL'ed code must themselves be GPL'ed.". But lets say a program has foo.cpp and bar.cpp and poop.cpp, all linked into one program. foo.cpp and bar.cpp are 100% original, but poop.cpp has a tiny snippet of GPL code. Does the GPL only affect poop.cpp and require me to only release the sources to it and it alone, or do I have to release ALL sources -- even ones not derived from GPL -- just because they're in the same program that did use a snippet of GPL code? This could use some clarification in the article. --I am not good at running 07:09, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

If they're statically linked, you are definately not supposed to release it if one of those parts is GPL'd and the rest is not. If dynamically linked, only poop.??? would need to be GPL'd. This is suggested by a nice Novell article right here (http://www.novell.com/coolsolutions/feature/1532.html). However, they also point out (and I've heard this one too) that the dynamic linking arguement is not completely agreed upon. Clarification in the article would be handy in any case. -- Consumed Crustacean | Talk | 00:27, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

There is this in the article that does do some to explain it, and not too poorly: "One of the key disputes related to the GPL is whether or not non-GPL software can dynamically link to GPL libraries. The GPL is clear in requiring that all derivative works of GPL'ed code must themselves be GPL'ed. However, it is not clear whether an executable that dynamically links to a GPL library should be considered a derivative work." ...

... It should be clear, however, that if you link all of the code into one single executable (including GPL'd and non-GPL'd code) you are violating the license as it really is a derivitive work, one program containing GPL code within. *shrug* -- Consumed Crustacean | Talk | 00:38, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

The GPL punts to copyright law on the definition of a derivative work. FSF says that dynamic linking does create a derivative work. Others (notably Matt Asay) disagree. It's never directly gone to court; each side has its pet cases and theories. However, FSF and others have successfully enforced the GPL's dynamic linking provisions outside of court. -- Novalis 04:20, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

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