Talk:France

Opening sentence

From LaurelBush 16:41, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC): I suggest the article's opening sentence should read:

"The French Republic or France (French: République française or France) is a sovereign power centred on Paris in western Europe, and a country whose metropolitan territory is located in western Europe, and which is further made up of a collection of overseas islands and territories located in other continents."

The expression 'sovereign power' places the power on a map in relation to other soverign powers, such as the UK (centred on London or Westminster), Ireland (Dublin) and the US (Washington DC). Perhaps 'UN-recognised sovereign power' is more precise.

The common usage is to say "country". --David.Monniaux 17:04, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Area of France

There is still a problem with the correct area of France. The article currently says its ranked 47th in the list of countries by area. However, it is ranked 42th at the moment (the list also refers to Metropolitan France and the French Republic separately) and the areas given in both places are different. If this article is right then France would even be higher up in the ranking. Any authorative source on this issue (maybe some french governmental website etc.)? The list says it refers to the CIA Factbook, but I did not check whether this is true. --Markus Krötzsch 15:36, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

INSEE says [1] (http://www.insee.fr/fr/ffc/intfrcbref.pdf) that the total surface of France is around 549,000 km² (543965 in Metropolitan France, the rest in oversea possessions). --David.Monniaux 10:09, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Check the table at the beginning of the article about France. I put there the exact area of France, with footnote to what it refers to exactly. --Hardouin 00:30, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"strict France"

To whoever added : '*If only strict France is considered this number lows to some 40 million', the least you could do is explain to the rest of us what on earth you mean by 'strict France.' The first time I read it I thought you meant the Metropole, but then I saw the entry for Spain and realize that you're removing some groups (Basques? Catalans? Occitans?). --MichaelTinkler

German and Dutch languages

I wonder why someone has added, among the languages spoken in France, German and Dutch. These are not spoken in France, except by tourists. --GP

There really is a very small minority of Dutch speakers in France, located in the northeast corner, at the Belgian border. I don't known whether these people speak it as a first language, however. It is also claimed that the possibility to meet a Dutchman in the summer is higher in France than in Amsterdam, so there are lot of people speaking Dutch ;-)

Maybe this could be understood in the way that there is a lot of foreigners tourists in amsterdam? and there is a lot of dutch tourists in france during summer, some even owns a house in the countryside, but they still are tourists. --Izwalito

Well, though the Flemish (rather than Dutch) traditions may still be present around Lille, I have never met any Flemish-speaking person coming from French Flanders. Maybe among people over 70 years ?

While Flemish is really just a dialect of Dutch (although many speakers of both languages will deny that), I really don't know who speak it, it is just mentioned in most reputable language reports of France. --Jeronimo

I could image some people in the Alsace/Elzas speaking German, but I don't really know. --Jeronimo

You may be right, but actually they probably wouldn't agree ; the dialect(s) spoken in Alsace is (are) germanic, but Alsatians are reluctant to call it German. Of course, this is subject to debate.

I have replaced "Dutch" and "German" by "Flemish" and "Alsatien" respectively. These are the actual names of these dialects, and they both link to articles, which in turn link to "Dutch" and "German". --User:Olivier

I've replaced Alsatien by Alsacien. First because it's the way we write it. Then, because by judging the number of hits on google (35 instead of 28 200 for Alsacien), most being personal pages or wikipedia page, it's obviously not the english way to write it. Mispelling probably. --user:anthere

I'm the one who originally added Dutch and German to the list of languages spoken in France. As has been pointed out, both are indeed used in France, though mostly in their local dialect form (Flemish and Alsatian), with the standard language serving as the language used in education and, generally, writing. Even though only French is an offical language in France, and Flemish has a positively tiny number of speakers, they still deserve a mention. I've further put "German" back in, partly because Alsatian is strictly speaking just a (Alemannic) dialect of German, partly because "Alsatian" doesn't entirely cover the German spoken in Lorraine (which AFAIK is Franconian in origin). --Scipius

People in Alsace will probably object to "Alsacien" being considered only as a "dialect of German". I originally come from Alsace and linguists in the area consider Alsacien to only share a common origin with modern German. I.e, they are both Alemannic languages. I'm not sure I understand the distinction between the "German spoken in Lorraine" and Alsacien; there are numerous variants (different words, not only different prononciation) of Alsacien. People in the south of Alsace can have major difficulties understanding the northern version, and vice-versa. AFAIK, the "German spoken in Lorraine" is a variant of "Alsacien" the locals object having called "Alsacien" for mainly territorial reasons.

Almost every french region has its own dialect or patois, telling an alsacien person that alsacien is german is very offensive and can lead you into trouble

A rose by any other name is still a rose.--68.80.223.233 19:05, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

My 2 cents: I have been to Alsace many times and never had a problem speaking German with the locals, even though I also speak French. Never got into trouble for that! Alsatian is one of the many dialects of German and closely related to the German dialects on the other side of the Rhine. People from both sides of the Rhine can converse with each other in their respective German dialect and have no trouble understanding each other. Trust me, I know this, since my grandmother is Alsatian and I (even though I speak another South German dialect - Schwäbisch -) also do understand Alsatian. There is of course a difference between the Alemannic German dialects spoken in Alsace, the German Southwest, Switzerland and the western Austrian state of Vorarlberg and Standard German (Hochdeutsch), which is the national standard in Germany. The difference between the German dialects spoken in Alsace and Lorraine has to with the fact, that the dialect of Lorraine belongs to another German Dialect group - Franconian - and has more in common with the dialects spoken in Rhineland-Palatinate, the Saarland etc. Also, there are differences between the various forms of Alsatian, which is typical for German dialects or for that matter, dialects in general. Last, but not least, the author of the remark regarding the dialects or "patois" or French regions is confusing 2 different things. There are of course different dialects of French, especially in the Southern part of France, that differ tremendously from the national standard. However, that got nothing to do with non French languages spoken within France, such as Alsatian, Breton, Corsican, Basque etc.

Having said that - I would like to add that I love France, the culture, the cuisine, the language and that some of my best friends are French. So don t even think about getting into an argument with me about German-French conflicts.... :-) Those days are over and we are all GOOD Europeans now!

Greetings from Pacific Grove, CA --Luke

The learning of foreign languages in France tends to be heavily influenced by geographical and historical factors. Understandably, people close to Italy more often learn Italian; and people close to German naturally tend to learn German as a foreign languages. Thus, people able to speak German in Alsace may not actually be that much related to dialects.

There are of course different dialects of French, especially in the Southern part of France, that differ tremendously from the national standard.

I do not see what you mean. I'm a native French speaker; I've been a number of times to various places in the South, I've got family there. Except for the use of a few local words (which would apply in most French regions), the only noticeable difference is a difference of accent — but this certainly does not constitute a dialect (though I can understand that it can be hard for non-native speakers). --David.Monniaux 07:59, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I wouldn't call them dialects, although they are mostly Romance languages, they are significantly different from French. Many of these were still widely in use in the early 20th century (although the French government discouraged their use until recently). From my personal experiences, I have found that a significant portion of older French people, especially in the southern regions, can speak or at least understand some of these different languages. Some examples include Langues d'Oc, and Languedocien. It is interesting to note that "Languedocien is used primarily by rural people over age 50", so it will likely die out within a few generations. --user:Nezbie

These are indeed generally referred to as different languages, not dialects (but I'm not an expert on the topic). A dialect is a variant of the same language; thus American English is a dialect of English, and Quebec French is a dialect of French. In the south, there exists Occitan, Provençal etc. but these are romance languages related to French but significantly different. (I know some elderly people who speak provençal.)

What I meant above is that though there are obviously some regional languages (fast dying out, as you point out) there aren't real regional dialects (i.e. established variants of the same language, mutually intelligible, with minor differences in grammar and vocabulary). David.Monniaux 15:42, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Number of regions

The article regions of France says there are 22 regions, whereas this one says 23: what is the actual number? Why is there this difference? --User:Oliver

23 is the real number. There are 22 on the main territory (régions métropolitaine), and 1 more including the overseas departments --ant

Has the 23rd region the exact same status as the other ones? "with conseil regional"? Where is the capital/seat of the conseil regional of this region? --User:Olivier

22 régions métropolitaine + 4 overseas = 26 regions

However, I'm not sure Corsica is a region, I think it's a 'colectivite territorialle', ie a special status entity. The overseas regions are a bit different as there is only 1 departement in the region; so region and departement have the same 'conseil'. (There is a similar stuff for Paris, which is a Departement and a city.) --Ann O'nyme

Insee (http://www.insee.fr/fr/region/accueil_region.htm) settles it once and for all, they list 26 regions.

Corsica is NOT an overseas collectivity. It is a metropolitan region made with two departements (haute corse et corse du sud). --anonymous

Important cities

I'd like to know what defines an "important" city. Honestly, I have never heard of Doue-la-Fontaine, and other cities listed here seems not to be major cities to me at all. If the definition of an important city is its size and maybe something very particular about its activity, I'd like the size and maybe the specific activity to be clearly defined. It seems to me some cities added here are not much more than big villages, and it does not look "serious" at all. It sounds as if some are the big villages where the editor is living. I totally agree these cities could have a room in wikipedia, but not listed as major cities. We could link them directly from their department rather, or from a tourism page. I'll do it if nobody objects.

Doué la fontaine
Barcelonnette
Montrichard
Noyon
Rochefort
Bayonne (maybe)
Firmini
Foix
Saint Girons (and not Saint Giron)
Saint Raphaël
Tavaux

--user:anthere

Something has to be done about that mess... May be creating 3 sections, e.g. Major cities/Historic cities/Touristic cities. --Ann O'nyme

There does seem to be a problem regarding what a "grande ville" really is for the French. They will speak of "les grandes villes de Dijon, Besancon, etc.", which are rather small, while the French media often describe our (much) larger American urban areas as small: "la petite ville de Oklahoma City, de Wichita", etc. (Yet these two U.S. cities, if they were French, would be in the Top Five of France!) Would a kind Frenchman care to comment?

Freedom Land

I believe it is imperative that this be moved to Freedom Land. --Susan Mason

Is that an unnecessary jab at the French? --ugen64 23:02, Oct 8, 2003 (UTC)

It seems to be more of a jab at French bashing than at France.

Overseas territories

Do the overseas collectives and the other small islands claimed by France belong to the EU? --AxelBoldt 10:39, 24 Sep 2003 (UTC)

The oversea départements do, the oversea territories (New Caledonia, French Polynesia, TAAF) don't, and I don't know about the other ones. --David.Monniaux 20:03, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

British English

Is it okay for me to make the article use British English? Since France is in Europe, I feel that British English is more relevant for the article. --WhisperToMe 06:00, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Apology, but I am not entirely convinced. Is the language right now entirely american, or partly only ? Could you point out at some examples ? Thanks. Anthère

It's considered bad form to change from English to American spelling or vice versa, unless the article is specifically about those languages or places. --RickK 06:34, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I see that Color is in U.S. English form (after Tricolore), but that may be the only example. --WhisperToMe 05:40, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

As Rick said, there is a habit to keep a text in the spelling it was written, WisperToMe.

And it is not because England is nearer that we are only influenced by british english and not american english. Granted, children at school tend to learn more british english because of the exchanges between the countries (though actually exchanges are very frequent with Ireland as well) but adults practice much more american one. It is not bothering us that color is in american english WisperToMe.

I am not sure why you think british english is more relevant.

(and color fits very well with tricolore). --Anthère 06:38, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Re British English: As an American, I'm not bothered by British English in an article about a European country. British usage makes total sense. However, you should use American English in articles about American people, places, and things. We like our U.S. spellings, vocabulary, and syntax just as much as the British like theirs, so "Brit-speak" in an article about us would be jarring and inappropriate. --Mason

This is Wikipedia's policy: UK-specific articles should be in British English, US-specific articles in American English. But, here, we're discussing France. --David.Monniaux 08:02, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Right, David, but many Europeans (especially the French--I lived in France for 3 years) follow British usage much more than American. Thus, most readers won't be miffed if an article on France is written in British English, the common language of Europe. --Mason

British English, the common language of Europe. You must be kidding. David.Monniaux 08:01, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Not at all. British English has become the lingua franca of Europe. The usage, vocabulary, and accent taught in your schools (often as a required subject from age 10) are overwhelmingly British. --M.

Sure. (I note that English is not a required subject from age 10 in France; foreign languages are, and English is either taken as a 1st or 2nd foreign language.) British spelling is naturally favored in schools, and is the official spelling used in European Union documents.

However, engineers, scientists, businesspeople etc. often, and I would even say "generally", work with American spelling, even though this is not what's taught in secondary schools. This reflects the large importance of the US for such professions compared to that of the UK. I myself generally use American spellings unless writing specifically for a British audience. --David.Monniaux 05:54, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

When I lived in France in the '70s, the English I heard was totally British. Britons were almost always preferred as lecteurs or lectrices d'anglais in your universities. (They hired few Americans in those days.) I guess times must change—and that's good. --M.

"British" English is also used in Australia, South Africa and India.

I believe it's more accurate to say that indian english is used in India. --Izwalito

Canadians also use British English (with a few exceptions), The United States of America is about the only place that does not use British english.

As long as they are part of France, and as long as France is part of European union, the overseas departments are part of the european union. As a result, when you are in Guyane, in the middle of amazonean rainforest, you are in the European union.

That's exact in the case of Guyane, but inexact in the case of the French Pacific possessions, which are not considered to be within the EU. --David.Monniaux 08:53, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Currency of France

It's not correct to state in the table that the currency of France is both the Euro and French euro coins respectively. One have to distinguish between a currency and legal tender. The currency of France is just the Euro. French euro coins, along with all other "national" euro coins are legal tender (in France and in the rest of euroland). Thus, if the table wants to give information about coins and banknotes having the status of legal tender, it is uncomplete (since in this case all other "national" coins have to be stated as well). If the table refers to the currency, it is just correct to mention Euro. --Gugganij 15:32, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Grammar

It's OK in terms of content. But the grammar in the article needs a lot of work. Not anything to change the sense or even the tone of the article - Bog forbid - it just needs tiny little adjustments so it reads as if whoever wrote it speaks English competently as their first language. Little details like "it's vs. its" and unnecessary plurals drive me crazy. I care about France very much, (my daughter goes to a French school!) and I want the article to read more easily and represent the country better that way. Facts I leave to the natives, but I can help with the English. When I have some extra time, I'll go through and fix these minor things a little bit here and there as I can. My best to all. -- Hwarwick 16.40 PST, 30 June 04

Frogs

does anyone know anything about the Frog association with France? mnemonic 23:49, 2004 Jul 3 (UTC)

Supposedly, the French eat frogs/frogs legs, at this, being "gross", appals many in Anglophone countries. In reality, frog legs are a rare delicacy, which many French probably have never eaten in their life. They actually seem more common in Chinese than in French restaurants. --David.Monniaux 08:11, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

you can also check this webpage (http://allaboutfrogs.org/weird/general/frenchfrogs.html) from more supposed origins of this nickname

About Anglophone tastes

I don't think we should care of what the Anglophones things which is good or not to eat... I never thought that many Anglophones are interesting under that point of view... :-) With all respect! PS: the Argot word to call an english is "Crustacée" because they are rigids, walking on the wrong sense and eating shit and corpses ! :-) so... ;-)

Someones Bitter

"Eating shit and corpses !"- What? The British Royal Navy is no longer a haven for cannibalism. We have that problem relatively under control.

Currencies

Wouldn't it be better to add a footnote which specifies where the CFA- and the CFP-Francs are used? Otherwise one might get the impression, that those are currencies which are also used in the mainland. --Gugganij 14:47, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)

CFA Franc is used nowhere in France. CFA Franc is the currency of a number of countries in Western and Central Africa (and is pegged to the Euro). CFP Franc is the currency of the French Pacific territories. --David.Monniaux 18:16, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Thats's the problem I wanted to point at. --Gugganij 14:50, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Intro

The sentence It holds nuclear weapons does not belong in the introduction. Was it francophobic vandalism? --Liberlogos 14:12, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

No, it was not intended as French bashing. I added the string because it is featured (or was...) in the French version of Wikipedia, because I though it might be revelant (since nuclear capability somehow seems to be a common trait of permanent Security Council members), and that it certainly is an important feature of the nation (think of the energy that de Gaulle or Chirac have put into this...). And also because I felt slightly depressed with the state of the world at the time, I must admit ! :p

It's not a problem about featuring this information, but about featuring it in the early introduction, as if it were one of the most essential characteristics of France. It's as if you had added "He once took illegal drugs" in the first sentence on a page describing some politician – while mentioning it in the text, for instance when discussing drug policies, can make sense, mentioning it at the beginning is just plain accusatory.

Nuclear weapons are not an essential trait of France. They are one of the main traits of its defense policies, which themselves are parts of France's policies, which are one aspect of France. --David.Monniaux 16:05, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

That's interesting that you seem to consider possessing nuclear weapons a negative trait ("Was it francophobic vandalism?" and "It's as if you had added "He once took illegal drugs" "); it is often seen as a token of high technology, and proof of power and "untouchability" of the country. Not that I disagree with the fact that nuclear weapon do have a negative aspect as well (understatement-fest, yeah ! :) ).

Besides, I'm agreed with David, and anyway, the "Security Council" thing is mathematically equivalent, without the militaristic connotations, so, so much the better !

Well, I think that it's simply a matter of proportion and focus. In the introductory paragraph of most articles, the main characteristics of a person, country etc... are summarized. Focusing on characteristics such as weaponry has the undertones of an accusation of bellicism. It may be justified, of course, if the said country frequently threatens the usage of these weapons; but France does not parade its nukes nor does it threaten other countries with them. --David.Monniaux 10:45, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Personally, I think that the introduction should list key features of the subject treated, so that people that don't have time or patience to read the article can have an idea of the main points. The fact that France is one of the few nuclear powers on Earth is certainly something that stands out, and I think it should be in the introduction. I suggest rephrasing like this: "...a permanent member of the UN Security Council and one of only seven alleged nuclear powers on the planet." I also think that the fact that France's economy is the fifth-largest in the world should be noted in the introduction, such as: "The economy of France is the fifth-largest in the world in 2003." Last but not least, it seems the United Kingdom has been forgotten as a neighbor of France. Are maritime borders not as important as land borders? It should also be specified that these neighbors are for metropolitan France ONLY. The French Republic has many more neighbors, such as Brazil, Surinam, The Netherlands, etc. I let people express comments and suggestions before making any of the 4 proposed changes here. --Hardouin 16:28, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I agree. Mentioning nukes as a characteristic among others is ok; what I disagreed with was that it was the only characteristic mentioned. --David.Monniaux 17:57, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

In 2003, 85,7% of electricity produced in France comes from nuclear energy. Nuclear power as energy source is way more important in France than the nuclear weapons. source (http://www.edf.fr/html/etiq_elec/sources.html) --Izwalito

Religion

If you think there's an accuracy or POV problem in the "religion" section, please clearly state what you think is wrong and why on the talk page; merely glueing a "the following paragraph is dubious" label does not contribute much. --David.Monniaux 10:07, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Francophobic vandalism||jealousy?

I found that the edits made by 213.140.6.103 where reverted by Evercat, why? --Surcouf 30/08/2004 14:08 CET

About the only thing of value in that edit was the figure of 77 million tourists. I'll add that back if you like. The rest was either POV ("wonderful museums") or gibberish, ie "exceptionalism of his architectural, historical and artistic patrimony." - what the heck does that mean?? --Evercat 22:50, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I removed a fairly long enumeration of "facts" from the intro. --David.Monniaux 21:58, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Please stop franco-phobic stupid vandalism, there is a link with official data of the year 2002 taken from WTO, if you not agreed with that try to justify why and find me other number and sources, if not: shut up, without offences... ;-)
Surcouf 20:40 CET 01/09/2004

BTW this is not a new fact as you can see here (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_tou_arr) France was already ranking 1st for tourism in 1997 with 67,310,000 Tourists

Surcouf, can you please provide a reference on a web site supporting these values ? --SweetLittleFluffyThing 20:50, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Here is a source at the French Government [2] (http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/venir/voicilafrance/gb/page05.html) which gives a figure of 71,000,000 --the most in the world--but also makes the distinction that the U.S. has the highest income from tourism in the world (a completely different statistic); France is third in that count. Googling supports that the most visited countries are France, Spain, and the U.S. in that order. Peace everyone, --Antandrus 20:55, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Franco-phobic vandalism from Marcus2

I reported on wikipedia about WTO datas for world tourism rankings, those data was also published on "Capital" n°155 magazine in France and in TV (France2), the ranking reported France first world tourist destination with 77millions tourist a year (FOREIGNER), I'll make links on "economy section" to USA, GB, France, Spain and Italy (impossible: italy is blocked) with no problem (it's an official World Tourism Organization stat!) but a boy with nick Marcus2 reverted my edits on france denying the facts (and so the WTO official datas...) claiming that there's no evidence about that...

What I can do? He menace me to block my user... --Surcouf 21:22 CET 01/09/2004

I'd say to first assume good faith from him. Marcus obviously wants the best for the article, and providing references (if there are references) should be enough to convince him. Also, I recommand that you avoid calling his reversions vandalism, if you do not want this to backfire :-) Usually, when name calling starts, it escalate pretty badly :-) Keep it cool guy. --SweetLittleFluffyThing 20:59, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

intro length

The new text that has been added in the last month or so clutters the top of the page and is contrary to the WikiProject Countries template and intention. --Joy [shallot] 14:22, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I totally agree. I feel a bit responsible actually, since I am the one who started adding a few points into the introduction last month, things I deemed were missing there, but then people started adding into the introduction everything that went thru their head. The point of an introduction is, well, to introduce the subject, and to highlight key points. By cluttering it with a hodgepodge of information I think we really defeat the purpose of an introduction. I have taken out unnecessary information and put it down into the article, so that the introduction is now left with only the essential things (hopefully). --Hardouin 11:41, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

There's also way too much text now in the Demographics section, while the Demographics of France page doesn't have anything like it. It should be mass-moved. --Joy [shallot]

Done that now. --Joy [shallot] 14:37, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

International Schools in France

Does anyone know of international schools (K-12) in France (that is, schools that teach in English)? I already know of the two in Paris and one in Toulouse but I am pretty sure there are a few more out there...

Please note that K-12 is an American abbreviation; most Europeans won't understand it. [For those who might help: K-12 means "kindergarten to 12th grade", that is, primary and secondary education.] This is not really the place to ask for such things...

Actually you're wrong. Many international schools in Europe use the American K-12 system. And I guess you have a point (Even though you didnt really make one) that this is not the forum to make off-topic inquiries. I apologize.

Before saying that people are wrong, you should read what they write. :-) Most Europeans don't know what K-12 means, even some who might know about Anglophone schools in their vicinity.

Error on main entry

I don't know how to properly fix this, but there's obviously an error on the main page. Someone has added some slanders french history and possibly deleted some stuff.

There are people watching over the page to check for possible vandalism. It just doesn't get fix straight away every time. --David.Monniaux 21:43, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I noticed it too before, I was about to remove the text that was included but someone beat me to it.

Not sure whether this is the right place to point that out, but what's with that picture of Spain in the history section. It is not even referenced in the text, I think that ought to be removed.

Use of definite article

Please don't overuse the definite articles le/la when citing French phrases (a common error of many anglophones). One normally doesn't put le/la in front of an expression like France or République Française unless it is inside a sentence of its own. For instance, some official letterhead may start with République Française but will never start with La République Française. --David.Monniaux 09:27, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This is cool. I can write on the page and no one will care.

How come this page says "This is cool. I can write on the page and no one will care." ??? but I can't find out where it was added. I tend to see such strange things after 'nuclear weapons' is mentioned on wikipedia.

Hi. See Wikipedia:Welcome, newcomers. -- Infrogmation 03:59, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Religion in France

Where is the article on this? Fascinating subject, complicated interplay.

Now moved to Culture of France. I'll put a summary here. --David.Monniaux 08:30, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

uhhh huh --anonymous

Flag

The previous flag was the old flag and was not did not match with colours that were listed in the french flag article --nicksukh

Infobox

I'm sick and tired the infobox being moved around. --David.Monniaux 09:00, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Locked ?

What's with this lock? what are the editing disputes related to this lock? --Izwalito

The infobox was being moved up and down and up and down. --David.Monniaux 18:53, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I'd like to add Template:Fr icon to the links to French language websites, but I can't do it while the article is locked.. --Zantastik 07:55, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Sign of France

Whoever wrote the article, you forget to mention 'Marianne', which is the symbol of the French Republic. I got you a link with an actual picture... It's french though:

http://www.elysee.fr/instit/symb6.htm

"Marianne is the symbol of France since the consitution of 1958 made the Blue-White-Red flag official. She is a sign of Liberty"

If you scroll down the page, there's a link to Marianne. We should perhaps make it more proeminent. --David.Monniaux 07:52, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I agree. It's like having an article on the Netherlands without mentioning William of Orange. --Shinobu 16:32, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Military of France

As one of the most important nations in the world (exery nation may have it's beauty and so on, but you know what i mean.), I think France's military should get an own section in the article. BTW, the main article on it is very messy. --Predator capitalism 18:55, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You are welcome to improve it. --David.Monniaux 20:05, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Vandalism

What happened?? We all need to work together as a team to act more quickly a vandal starts messing with wikipedia articles. --nicksukh

We had a string of vandalism coming from various educational networks, at some point. --David.Monniaux 05:08, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Il n'y a aucune raison pour protéger cet article. Il faut simplement exclure les idiots qui détruisent la page. C'est ça. -Heimdal 15:39, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Cela suppose que nous puissions bannir toutes leurs adresses IP, ce qui n'est pas si simple, vu qu'ils interviennent visiblement depuis de nombreuses adresses à travers le monde (peut-être des machines infectées par un virus et faisant "open proxy"). David.Monniaux 16:12, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Erm...the entire page has just disappeared.

Insulting the French

Note: by the 2nd of May, 2005 part of the conversation had become jumbled up. I used the history to figure out who wrote what when. Shinobu

Why is it that so many people like to vandalise pages about france or the french?

I think I fixed it. Whoever did this needs to learn a lesson. Anonymous S. African

Why do so many people like to vandalize pages about the U.S.? I'm disheartened if there's any anti-French sentiment whatsoever in English Wikipedia. Yet, in my experience, anti-Americanism is far more widespread in France than Francophobia will ever be in the United States. Mason.Jones 16:56, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

(continued below — Shinobu)

Really? I'm afraid it doesn't seem to sink to the kind of vulgarity and ignorance that we see here. Is your experience based on living in France? David.Monniaux 22:31, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it does sink that low, I'm afraid. My friends from Paris think so, too. Mason.Jones 02:13, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

(continued from above — Shinobu)

And now I see that a totally awkward, ideologically inspired word – états-unien – must replace américain on the French Wiki site.Mason.Jones 16:56, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You're perhaps not aware of this, but southern americans really hate the use of american or américain or americano with a meaning restricted to the United States. Some people thought it appropriate to use a more specific word. David.Monniaux 22:31, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

Spanish-speakers have used estadounidense or norteamericano for ages. Yet almost overnight the French Wiki site imposes états-unien, a term very few Francophones use—not Le Monde, not Libé and not any French person I've ever met. This is an ideologically driven change on the part of French Wikipedians, that's all. Mason.Jones 02:13, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

I wouldn't like the word "European" to be used specifically for Germans, for sure... but if it's ideologically driven, it must be evil indeed... I don't really see what using a precise word for naming the inhabitants of a country instead of a generic word, applicable for the whole continent, has to do with the vandalising of this page though. On a sidenote I still haven't seen primary anti-americanism here, although people make fun of Americans just like of anybody else (but of course I lived in the civilised world, not Paris or another big city, haha). → SeeSchloß 07:15, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

Oh and I'm not sure what you mean with the French wiki, the French USA wiki page says "Américain" everywhere and the search engines find it about 100 times more than "états-unien". And I can't find a decision asking to use either of the words rather than the other on the bistro, or the community portal page (except for one discussion last week, which doesn't have any conclusion). → SeeSchloß 07:32, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm. So, because of minority of Francophone wikipedians (not necessarily French, and clearly not representative of society in general) declare they prefer to use étatsuniens, you read into their thought and conclude this is motivated not by a desire of precision or of accomodation for South Americans etc., but by anti-American ideology? And then you consider this an example of widespread Americanophobia in France? Interesting. David.Monniaux 14:09, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

The entire debate is (or was) in the "Discussion" section for the article "États-Unis". The winner: états-unien, a weak, marginal term but now the only entry under "Gentilé" in the info box (a friendly gesture to South Americans, according to Mr. Monniaux). Throughout the French site, américain will be displaced; the imperialists have been punished. Mason.Jones 18:07, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

Dear, dear. This is nothing to get all worked up about. In Europe the term America is often used as a kind of verbal shorthand for United States'. In some situations the more specific term might be more appropriate because it avoids confusion. Oh, and please don't quote search engine hits. The number of hits you find might not tell you the whole story. Some of the "américain"-hits are not (just) about the States. Apart from that instead of "états-unien" the phrase "des États Unis" is often used. Shinobu 18:43, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

I don't want annoy Mason.Jones, but I think that he's comparing apples and oranges. On the one hand, we have the choice of étatsuniens, a precise and descriptive term, though not widely used; on the other hand, we have people posting caricatures of political leaders as weasels, schoolyard-level insults, and other vulgarities. It does not take high casuistic skills to recognize that the latter exhibit more blind hate than the former. On the Francophone wikipedia, I've never seen this level of vulgar, uninformed, hateful anti-Americanism, while this kind of francophobia is regularly exhibited on the English-speaking wiki. 10:45, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

I fear I must second that... though I must say it is better than it used to be two years ago... user:anthere

Unfortunately, I'd have to agree with this. From my personal experiences, the French have a rather strong feeling of dislike for what they perceive as the cowboy "go it alone"/"my way on the highway" mentality, "Americanisation", and cultural hegemony. However, this pales in comparison to the sleuth of vulgar, crude francophobia often encountered here in the United States and engrained in online media. Just doing a simple online query reveals the frightening amount of online sites founded over the sole purpose of bashing anything gallic, and waging a war of disinformation. I have yet to see this sheer amount of extremism in France regarding the United States, wether it be expressed online or in real life. user:Nezbie

I don't have the impression that the France article is more often vandalised than other pages. I also see a lot of vandalism on the United States page, for that matter. Besides, it seems to me that it's always the same few individuals who disrupt the pages. Perhaps a stricter policy against vandalism would help. People should be warned, and if they do it again, their IP should be blocked. - Heimdal 13:25, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

We had a wave of vandalism from different IPs from educational networks around the globe (perhaps hacked machines). David.Monniaux 16:48, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

Well, I have a little personal story that may help stop all the bashing of France and the vandalism of the France page (And Dave, one of the schools that may have been vandalizing the page might have been mine; the opinion on the French there is pretty negative).

         One time my Dad was sitting in a chatroom on AOL.  Now, we all know how
         nasty some of those pages can be, and this story is proof of that.  The
         room was entirely made up of United States citizens (and proud ones at 
         that), save for one French citizen.  Every single American in the room 
         was bashing the person, using every stereotype and insult in the book. 
         Finally he got everyone in the room to be quiet long enough for him to 
         type, "Look, we've been dealing with the Iraqis for a rather long time 
         now, and we've learned one thing about them after all these years.  Its
         that the Iraqis really aren't all that ready for Democracy.  And they
         won't be for the next 200 years.  You really have to trust us on this
         one."  Shortly after he said this, the entirety of the American citizens
         in the room was cheering the man on.

In case anybody reading this didn't know what the Frenchman was referring to, it was the current situation with the war in Iraq. I hope that this of all things helps to end the vandalization of the France page on Wikipedia. Of course, for anyone to read this, they would have to come and click the discussion link and sit through and read all of this. :wink:

--Nelson || Hit Me Up 04:51, Jun 7, 2005 (UTC)

Military spending

I wonder whether the quoted figures include the budget of the Gendarmerie (which, for the vast majority of its missions, acts like a civilian police force and would not be counted into the military budgets of some other countries). David.Monniaux 16:49, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

In case you're referring to the figures that I posted on May 4th. I can't say whether they include the Gendarmerie. I quoted from the following article: EU's Fragmented Defense Market Thwarts Bid to Bolster Military (http://www.newdefenceagenda.org/index.html?http://www.newdefenceagenda.org/news_detail.asp?ID=169&frame=yes~main). You can find the figures in about the 27th paragraph of the article. - Heimdal 10:03, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

Neutrality

I noticed while reading the article that many sentences were somehow trying to show France in a positive light by showing statistics about economics and nuclear power. I do not get that feeling while reading articles about United States, Japan or Germany. Maybe someone can help tidy up the article. Strangely even the article on India seems to suffer from the same problem. Is it got to do with an inner feeling of the people of nations truly great at some point in time? --coolmallu 22:45, 2005 May 4 (UTC)

Since the article was largely written by non-French people, I don't quite see what you mean. All articles about countries are supposed to contain statistics and other quick information allowing the reader to quickly get an idea of the position the country on various aspects. David.Monniaux 06:37, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

It may have been largely written by non-French people, but it is heavily edited and well-guarded by pro-French people. I was surprised to see that the article on the United States has far less bias. I am not American or French. --Csnewton 21:47, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

I'm obviously not alone in perceiving bias—some of it blatant—against the U.S. but not against France. Many articles about the United States, especially those in French Wiki, are loaded with negativity. When it comes to the world's superpower, the tone is distinctly leftist.Mason.Jones 19:07, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"left" == "negative" ? I only read the fr:États-Unis article anyway, and I didn't see any negativity in it. → SeeSchloß 18:54, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

No, as in "left" == "the ONLY way we see the racist, imperialist superpower in French Wikipedia". The fact that the article "États-Unis" is less virulently anti-American now may be because some of us Amerloques with good skills in French edited it to be a tad less one-sided. It was a chore, Mr. Schloss, believe me.Mason.Jones 17:58, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Administrative Divisions

Can the two columns be aligned somewhat more?

White Flags

Does anybody know where I could find a picture of a white flag? It would do wonders for my user page.Frenchman113 18:53, May 28, 2005 (UTC)

About Referendum on Constitution

Someone needs to revise the part about the referendum on the European Constitution. The French people rejected it. -Amit

I see an edit war coming upon this article with the no vote at the French referendum. We better be cautious. At this point, nobody knows what the no vote means really, and what the future will be. We do not have enough perspective to say what the consequences of the no will be, therefore it is better to only briefly mention it for the moment, and wait and see. To start editing the article and saying that France is no more a leading country in the EU just because the French opposed that particular consitutional treaty of the EU is totally absurd. Hardouin 01:34, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The only edit war I see coming is from one highly pushy individual who wants his point of view heard, and no other, "Hardouin". This points to the entire problem with the Wikipedia concept. The site is, in effect, written in act of sequential censorship, especially so when certain individuals decide to show up. - Joseph (65.182.172.89)

I fail to see what you mean. Since Sunday there have been already many edits and reverting about the referendum, done by many users, and I just intervened yesterday (Wednesday) to remove some totally out of context ranting about Russia and Chechnya. Libeling people is not really a good way to advance the discussion. Hardouin 11:39, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Lost/Regained Territory

I removed the following paragraph:

No other country in the history of the world has lost and regained its territory so many times. Some would say that this is due to France's military might, some would argue the link opposite (http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/victories.html).

Can the first sentence be backed up with any sort of facts? If we set aside for a moment the issue of what it means for a country to lose and then regain territory, there are several other locations that could legitimately lay claim to the distinction -- for example, Poland, Israel, Egypt, and parts of the former USSR; it all depends on how you count it. The definition of such is too messy and subjective to be put into an encyclopedia. Andrew Levine 23:18, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Fête de la Fédération/Bastille Day

In the Bastille article, it says that the Fête de la Fédération was a celebration of Bastille Day. If this was the case, it makes more sense to regard the July 14 holiday as a celebration of Bastille Day than a celebration of its first anniversary!

Either way one of the articles needs altering.

The 14th of July is a commemoration of the Fête de la Fédération, period. The Fête de la Fédération is a symbol of the unity of France, when representatives from all provinces declared their desire to form a united Nation. The 14th of July was made the National Holiday of France in the 1880s, after Germany had annexed Alsace-Lorraine from France in 1871, and it was purposedly chosen as the National Holiday to strenghten the unity of the country, and also to make it clear that Alsace-Lorraine were French, because the representatives of Alsace-Lorraine had freely joined the French Nation at the Fête de la Fédération. Hardouin 00:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

French hatred

Would somebody please kindly explain to me why people such as Bill O'Reilly, Ann Coulter, and Sean Hannity hate the French so much?(My apologies for only naming Conservatives, but those are the only people I know of that seriously hate France.) For those who date our friends the Francsters, I have something to say. First, the only time they've ever majorly disagreed with us was in the Iraq war. All they said was that they didn't think it was a good idea to invade Iraq. They never ever supported Saddam or the insurgents. Secondly, if it wasn't for France, our Revoultion for our freedoms that French-haters proudly brag about would most likely have lasted a lot longer, and we may not have won it at all. Finally, because of the revoultion, France has been our oldest ally. For crying out loud, they gave us The Statue of Liberty, and we thank them by renaming their fries?! Something's wrong. I studied French at school last year, and found their culture to be more welcoming and friendly than most Americans I know. Thank you very much for reading my thoughts, and I look forward to having my questions answered.

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