Talk:Flag of the United Kingdom

Contents

1 Revert war 2 Name of the flag 3 White border 4 italics? 5 Upside down

Revert war

What's going on here? Please stop reverting ech other's edits and explain what you are doing.

Whatever you decide, you should not be making articles which are duplicates. Use a redirect if you think they should be the ame thing. DJ Clayworth 17:15, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Reverting and re-reverting from Union Jack to Flag of the United Kingdom is pointless. Flag of the United Kingdom now contains the basic information on the flag as it is now, including and image. Other uses, history, nomenclature, the USA and Canada have nothing to do with the "Flag of the United Kingdom" so can be left at Union Jack. garryq 11:19, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Name of the flag

You may be right, Garry. However I think we should look at things a little more closely.

I can see some justification for having Flag of the United Kingdom and Union Jack as separate articles, if only because the Union Jack has had other uses in the past, such as the flag of Canada - though frankly they are very closely related to its use as the National Flag of the UK.

I do think this article has some problems. It starts with what is a controversial statement. Most British people reading this will stop at the first sentence and think "This is wrong - everyone knows the British flag is the Union Jack". They may not read any further. Non-British readers who take the first sentence literally will also be confused when they find that, for practical purposes, the Union Jack is the national flag of the UK. We should probably start with something like "The National Flag of the United Kingdom is effectively the Union Jack. However technically it has never been adopted as a national flag, and is in fact a royal banner".

More importantly it would be great if you could cite some references for the Union jack not being the national flag. You say, for example, that the Union Jack is a royal banner - but there is a Royal Standard, which is quite different from the Union Jack. Where are the references for the Union jack being a royal banner. Also we should think about the question "what makes a flag a national flag?". Does it have to be adopted by Parliament? If it's been used as the national flag for 300 years, when does it become actually the national flag? I'll bet that there has never been a parliamentary resolution saying that London is the capital of the UK, but does that mean it isn't? Old countries generally don't bother legislating things that are obvious. At the very least the article should emphasise that, for practical purposes, the Union Jack is the National Flag of the UK.

So I'm going to suggest a rewrite, plus citing some sources for the flag not being national. Does that sound reasonable? DJ Clayworth 13:42, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Looking more closely at the Union Jack article I find: "it has become [the national flag] through usage" and "it was stated in Parliament that "the Union Jack should be regarded as the National flag"" and "A more categorical statement was made by the Home Secretary in 1933, when he stated that "the Union Flag is the National Flag" ". Those seem pretty clear cut to me. DJ Clayworth 13:50, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The problem is not Union Jack, but in the frequent redirects the article kept getting. Hopefully this brief article will keep happy those who insist on the article being regularised with other national flags, and of course and help those who do not know the flags's name. The Union Jack article uses the most common name, as well as allowing for treatment of the flag, or the name, in history and outside the UK. Like so many aspects of the British Constitution the 1908un statement allows everything to muddle along, with fact and observance blurred. I hope the rewrite is clearer. --garryq 12:04, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Where are the references for the Union jack being a royal banner

On the British monarchy's official website "The Union Flag was originally a royal flag (when the present design was made official in 1801, it was ordered to be flown on all the King's forts and castles, but not elsewhere)"

However it does start the article by saying "The Union Flag, or Union Jack, is the national flag of the United Kingdom"

and also "Although the Union Flag originated as a royal flag, it is now also flown by many people and organisations elsewhere in the United Kingdom by long established custom" --Cap 00:24, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

White border

When flown by civilians the flag should have a white border, but this is rarely seen now.

I've never heard of this; what evidence do we have for the assertion? Marnanel 20:17, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The flag is sometimes refered to as the Pilots' Jack and traces it creation back to 1823 when it was created as a signal flag, and never intended as a civil jack. A book explaining the Act was issued to British consuls in 1855. It states that the white bordered Union Jack is the flag to be hoisted for a pilot, although it was being used by that time as a jack and the use of the Red Ensign for merchant shipping was not established until 1864. There was some ambiguity as to the legality of using as a jack although the practise was not acted upon by the authorities, partly because of fears that it would rise to demands that the merchany fleet be allowed to use the Uion Jack, a practice that the Admirialty did not want for no more than abitrary reasons and a possible superiority complex

In 1970 the white-bordered Union Jack ceased to be the signal for a pilot, but references to it as national colours were not removed from the current Merchant Shipping Act. It thus became a flag that could legally be flown on a civil ship, as a jack if desired. This status was confirmed by the Merchant Shipping (Registration, etc.) Act 1993. From which prohibits the use of any distinctive national colours or those used or resembling flags or pendants on Her Majesty's Ships, except:

1. the red ensign
2. the Union flag with white border
3. any colours authorised or confirmed elsewhere in the same Act.

Hence it might well be considered a civil jack, but that only applies at sea. Dainamo 15:46, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Removed comment to enter above details in article Union Jack Dainamo 15:55, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

italics?

What's the reason for the italicized portion? Ought that not be italicized and "...often called the Union Jack..." removed? Mkilly 23:25, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Upside down

"the flag is not symmetrical and has a right side and a wrong side up" It appears to have a 180-degree rotational symmetry. Not much danger of confusion with an actual physical flag, but paper or virtual representations it's significant. Joestynes 13:10, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

"the flag is flown upside down as a distress signal" really? Considering it's not used at sea, and considering how hard it would be to distinguish, I find this hard to believe. Joestynes 05:22, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)