Talk:Eye of Providence

The new stub for this page has been moved to Eye of Providence/Temp and can be edited there. DJ Clayworth 19:20, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Other connections

Whilst looking for another Masonic version of the Eye of Providence, I came across this symbol I would imagine this sort of personification derives from general sun worship, and possibly Ra or the Eye of Horus/Ra. Does anyone know whether that is true, and is the personified Sun symbol then connected to the Eye of Providence? And if so, can we put in a reference to the Teletubbies, which has an all-seeing baby-faced sun. -- Solipsist 12:22, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

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I have heard several statements saying Horus, and one or two connecting therefore to Mithras, but I've seen the symbol on the article for Ars_Goetia, a book on Demonology. Druminor 00:24, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Freemasonry

The answer to the question Is the eye and pyramid a masonic symbol? (http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-masonry/anti-masonry02.html#eye_pyramid) provided in the Anti-Masonry Faq is very informative.

Loremaster 17:58, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for that, but the article already says that the conection between the great seal and masonry is a common misconception, and gives a similar link in the External links section. -- Solipsist 18:17, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Although I was aware of the comment in the article you are refering to, I didn't notice the link. Thank you for pointing that out to me. Loremaster 01:18, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

"It is a common misconception that the Eye of Providence and unfinished pyramid show the influence of Freemasonry in the founding of the United States. Although Benjamin Franklin, one of the members of the original design committee for the Great Seal, was a Freemason, it appears that he was not responsible for introducing the symbol, and may not even have been aware of it."

I think this is factually inaccurate, as well as misleading. It could be reworded as one POV amongst many, but should not be expressing itself thus in the voice of the narrative. Sam Spade 18:25, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sam you should know better than to make unexplained deletions.

Now why is it you think this information is POV? It is certainly true that many American's believe that pyramid and EyeOProv are on the one dollar bill as a result of the influence of Freemasonry on the founding fathers. So the only real question is whether these are in fact Masonic symbols. We have two references from Masonic web sites which say they are not. To counter the argument, we would need to find a credible reference that says they are.

I'm not an expert on the iconography of the Freemasons, but I have taken the time to look into it, and to be honest, the explanation on the Rosslyn Templar's site rings true. The unfinished pyramid, or even a completed pyramid doesn't appear to be a symbol used by the Masons. The triangle, pentagram and the obelisk are, but the pyramid isn't. On the whole, Masons use a semi-circular glory, usually with extended rays from the base. You can find examples of full glories as in the Sun Face above, but I haven't seen any full glories surrounding the EyeOProv, nor an EyeOProv enclosed in a triangle - although these were Christian symbols.

There is a chance that William Barton, on drawing the Great Seal, was trying to please Benjamin Franklin (and if you are into conspiracy theories no doubt other behind-the-scenes Masons). But if so, it appears he got his symbols mixed up - and it would be surprising that controlling Masons didn't set him right. Alternatively, I might suggest that the Masons were still busy inventing their traditions and symbols at the same time that the Great Seal was being created. Both drew on symbols and ideas that were popular at the time, and that's about it.

There is good evidence for Masonic involvement in the erection of the Washington Monument, but then that's an obelisk. -- Solipsist 20:32, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I say again. Who is it that is saying there is another POV? -- Solipsist 21:22, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

? You freely admitted most peopels think it is a masonic symbol. I don't see what we are debating here. Sam Spade 21:41, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I freely admit that is what many people think, but the evidence says otherwise. Therefore it is useful to include a paragraph that explains why this is a common misconception. -- Solipsist 21:51, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Obviously some masons (and others assumably) think it is a misconception; many others disagree.[1] (http://www.wealth4freedom.com/dollarbill.html)

Sam Spade 15:17, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I take it that the disagreement section you are refering to is the quote from The Insider at the bottom. The Insider appears to be a newsletter for conspiracy theorists - so not terribly impressive. It isn't particularly well researched either - one of the links they give for examples of the EyeOProv as a Masonic symbol, is actually for the Society of OddFellows who split from the Masons around the 1720s about 50 years earlier than the Great Seal. Plus they are based in England - have they ever had a footprint in the US?

The one interesting link on that page is to this Canadian Freemasonry site (http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/kneph/kneph_images.html) showing an example of the EyeOProv in a triangle and another in a triangle related context. However, further research shows that these were published in an 1880 journal in England, called The Kneph and seems to have been largely attacked by mainstream and American Masons. Even if The Kneph was controversial in Masonic circles they probably didn't randomly make up the symbols illustrated, so that suggests the EyeOProv in a triangle was being used by some Masons at the tail end of the 19th century.

Now I thought that example was going to contradict the Rosslyn Templars (http://www.rosslyntemplars.org.uk/eye_in_the_pyramid.htm) article. But checking it again, they in fact say there is no example of an EyeOProv inside a triangle in The True Masonic Chart or Hieroglyphic Monitor, the definitive almanac on Masonic symbols of 1819 and they would have expected to see one if it was being used as a Masonic symbol in 1782. So it looks like Masons have picked up this symbol combination later in the 19th century quite possibly as a result of seeing it used in America.

So ultimately that references tells you nothing. Remember, you need to be proving that Masons were using these symbols prior to 1782 and so could have plausibly influence the design of the Great Seal. It is of no help to demonstrate that people in the 20th century believe there is a connection, that is not in doubt, the question is whether they are correct to believe it. If they are not, there is no point continuing the mistake here. -- Solipsist 21:47, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think your confusing NPOV and objective truth. Our job is not to present the objective truth, but rather to cite the various verifiable POV's. So far, we seem to have 2 POV's. One is that this is based on a mason symbol, the other that it is not. Why not present both sides of the argument, and let the reader be the judge of who they want to believe? Sam Spade 21:55, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

If you want to expand the section, go ahead, but I wouldn't put too much credence on conspiracy theorists as the proponents for saying that there is a connection to the Masons - that's more or less implied by saying they are conspiracy theorists.

I suggest you read the Great Seal article for more background. It goes into more depth about the symbolism on the Great Seal, this article is only really interesting in the Eye of Providence part.

You seem to be forgetting that the starting point for this is that you deleted a paragraph which is relevant. That is not expanding on either side of an argument. Perhaps you would like to restore the paragraph now. -- Solipsist 22:11, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I have read Great Seal of the United States, its what I linked to here from. I'll restore the paragraph, but w some adjustments of POV. Sam Spade 22:14, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)