Talk:Extraterrestrial life
|
|
| Contents |
Random comments that nobody bothered to categorize, not even me
Can someone add a few words about SETI to this article? I know it has its own definition, but I think self evidnetly needed to be explained in brief within this article.
dberliner
- Such a discovery would cause problems for worldviews that presume the uniqueness of human beings and the universal importance of human events, especially certain religious viewpoints.
For example? --LMS
For example, Christianity. Christianity (at least in some of its forms) presumes a certain uniqueness for human beings, and that human history is of unique importance in the grand schemes of things: that God became incarnate in a human being is one of its beliefs. I suspect that problems would arise if other life forms existed: why humans? why didn't God become incarnate in any other intelligent lifeforms? Now Christianity (even of the more traditional sort I am referring to here) could no doubt survive the discovery of alien life, but it would make it seem less likely -- that God chose some particular lifeform for events of grand cosmic import seems much more believable when there is only one lifeform for him to choose from. -- Simon J Kissane
I was asking for a definite example be added to extraterrestrial life. Frankly, although I'm about as nonreligious as they come, I'm skeptical of the claim. What events of grand cosmic import (as opposed to grand Earthly import) does Christianity allege? If Jesus is divine, why couldn't he be poking around on other planets, spreading the gospel (that would explain why he's been gone for lo these 2,000 years)? See, I just wanted the claim, which strikes me as prejudiced, given some definite proof. Otherwise, it should be stricken. --LMS
Christianity as a whole may not assert these things, but some branches of it do, and I have both talked to people and seen programs which asert that Christianity (meaning their version) does not allow for extraterrestrial life. So, if Christ comes but twice, he can't be off saving people on other worlds, if man is God's image then nothing else could conceivably possess the faculty of reason, and while I'm not sure where the uniqueness of earthly life is argued from I can tell you that it sometimes is. How widespread such conclusions are, though, I do not know.
I don't see it as particularly prejudiced. But since it seems to be controversial, I'm going to delete it anyway. -- Simon J Kissane
"If extraterrestrial life was discovered to exist, it would have profound implications for all human thought, especially if the life was intelligent."
This seems non-encyclopedic. It is a sweeping assertion, and one that I rather doubt. - TS
Should we mention the Martian meteorite and the Viking experiments? Robert Merkel
It has been theorised that all life on Earth came from space. Evidence to suggest this includes the Cambrian Explosion, where primitive forms of life suddenly appear on the fossil record...
I doubt that anyone at all serious would treat the Cambrian Explosion as evidence for panspermia, given that animals are quite clearly related to other forms of life present in the fossil record long before then. I think we should remove this unless a source can be provided for it. --JG
Removed section:<bt>
- It has been theorised that all life on Earth came from space. Evidence to suggest this includes the Cambrian Explosion, where primitive forms of life suddenly appear on the fossil record, and suggestions that comets may contain complex carbon chains, bordering at the level where they may become self-replicating.
This smells a bit fishy to me -- There is a great deal of convincing fossil, genetic and chemical evidence to support the notion that all life on Earth descended from a common ancestor that existed several billion years ago. There is no evidence to support the wild notion that there was a separate beginning for life during the early paleozoic. (this actually reminds me of a scene in the movie Mission to Mars where the holographic Martian yarns a holographic tale about the destruction of their world and how they decided to seed ours just before the Cambrian Explosion -- Remember folks, this stuff is fiction). The Varangian glaciation which preceeded the radiation of animals along with the subsequent over-warming of the Earth provided a great deal of evolutionary pressure. No extraterrestrial connection required.
And the "bordering at the level where they may become self-replicating" statement is pure conjecture. I remember reading about findings that complex carbon molecules were detected in the tails of coments -- but those molecules were PAHs and complex benzene rings -- not crude forms of DNA and protein (or anything that could even conceivably be considered to be on a path toward self-replication). --maveric149
- Many movies and fictions are based on valid scientific theories. Being the plot of a movie does not discredit the theory as fiction. I have heard about the meteorite theory from news and documentary programs on Discovery and TLC channel. Can you prove this theory originate from fiction? Even a fiction writer can develop a valid scientific theory. I think it is not right to take it out unless it is proven wrong. --anon
- In science, a theory is not considered "correct until proven wrong." Instead, it's only considered a good theory when there's a hefty helping of evidence to support it. In the case of the "earth-seeding" theory, the evidence is very limited, and if it's not fully ruled out by existing evidence, it's still got several noted points against it, notably Occam's Razor. In the case of "earth colonization" by anything larger than unicellular life, the available evidence does contradict that hypothesis in a fairly convincing fashion. Ergo, in discussing the scientific knowledge of this subject, it wouldn't be appropriate to include speculations of ET's during the Cambrian period. Stick to panspermia, if even that. -- April
- Mega dittos --April. The Discovery Channel and TLC are in the business to entertain and therefore create ad revenue - informing the public about science is just a happy aside that occurs for many of their programs (most certainly not all). BTW I have also seen DSC and TLC programs on Bigfoot, the Lockness Monster, UFOs, ghosts and Angels (but then you probably believe in those too anon) -- these channels are not at all good sources of information about science. Gesh... --maveric149
- I am glad you mentioned Angels. I don't believe in angels more than I believe in aliens. Honestly I don't believe either until I see one, but I never rule out the possibility that they might exist. Do you bleieve you know everything? I never believe life on earth are planted by alien civilization (the thoery that you deleted from the article did not say that either). But I think it is possible that the building blocks of life come from space, please explain how you can rule out such possiblity before you remove the statement:
- It has been theorised that all life on Earth came from space. Evidence to suggest this includes the Cambrian Explosion, where primitive forms of life suddenly appear on the fossil record, and suggestions that comets may contain complex carbon chains, bordering at the level where they may become self-replicating.
- If it was stated as a fact, then I agree you should just take it out. But if it is a theory, it deserves a space here unless it is absolute nonsense. -anon
- I am glad you mentioned Angels. I don't believe in angels more than I believe in aliens. Honestly I don't believe either until I see one, but I never rule out the possibility that they might exist. Do you bleieve you know everything? I never believe life on earth are planted by alien civilization (the thoery that you deleted from the article did not say that either). But I think it is possible that the building blocks of life come from space, please explain how you can rule out such possiblity before you remove the statement:
- Read the statements that --April and I have already made. You will then see that the removed section is not at all scientifically valid and is utter nonsense. It is true that many of the most basic building blocks probably did come from space -- the removed section does not say this -- Please read it again. It is furthermore non-scientific to believe in something that does not have evidence to support its existence. Yes it is possible and as a scientist I must admit this -- but then almost anything is possible in an absolute sense. Shall we place all these possibilities in the article as well? How about we stick to the most prevalent and pertinent arguments here. We have already explained why it was removed. --maveric149
I think that there is life outside of Earth; the odds are too high against no life other than on Earth. I also think that the fear of aliens attacking Earth and killing all of us is groundless. If there are any civilizations outside of Earth that are remotely like ours, then they will also have religion, or at least consciences that will not allow them to completely wipe us out. Instead, I think that, if they are ahead of us technologically, then they will take the initiative and contact us first, and vice versa if we discover them first. turtleddd6
Content that needs to be merged and NPOVed here:
An extra-terrestrial is any creature that possesses intelligence and originated on a celestial body other than earth.
Many people believe in the existence of extra-terrestials. Thousands believe that extra-terrestrials, also known as aliens, have visited earth on several occasions. One of the most popular of these occurences was an incident in Roswell, New Mexico. Conspiracy theories pertaining to this and other suspected occurences are rampant.
Extra-terrestrials have been the focus of numerous films, books, television shows, and radio shows. One radio show in particular, titled The War of the Worlds, stirred up terror when masses of listeners mistook the fictional show for an actual broadcast.
The Raelians are a group of believers in extra-terrestrial life; they believe that intelligent life on earth was initiated by aliens. Their leader is Rael.
Credentials
There are many scientists who believe in UFOs and go public with their beliefs, usually because they have witnessed a phenomena that cannot be explained by contemporary science. The internet is a playground for scientific theory. When I see such a remark as this in a post, "As a scientist, I know such and such." It is too suspicious to note your qualification without the qualifying letters attached. The reality of UFO visitation to this planet is a foregone conclusion for all who have witnessed them. A skeptic must be considered as someone who has not had the experience, or someone who is stifled in the arena of university dogma. Polls suggest the great majority of people in the United States believe in UFOs and that they are of extraterrestrial origin. The evidence is concrete to many abduction victims, and all it takes is a cruise through those sites to note the names of and qualifications of scientists that have been doing the research. MJS
- You appear to be equating "UFOs" with flying saucers. A most un-scientific assumption. Rhobite 05:05, Sep 22, 2004 (UTC)
--- I changed "Some scientists believe that some UFOs are the spacecraft of intelligent extraterrestrials".
Some people believe this, certainly, but since the term scientist is so often used ambiguously, its use here has little meaning. There is no reason for these people to be identified as scientists. Many of them certainly are, but without some link between their interest in science and this belief it is inappropriate to use this wording. ("scientific belief"?)
Could have had either "Some people believe that some UFOs are the spacecraft" or as I wrote "Some scientists suggest that some UFOs may be the spacecraft".
I am aware of no work that through the scientific method justifies this belief. (Many scientists are agnostic in the sense that they would say that the scientific method can never justify belief, but that's a question for philosophy. Here I mean no work that can justify this induction.)
history of the idea?
Does anyone know when people first theorized the existence of life on other planets? It seems like a natural continuation from realising the Earth is a sphere, and that other, presumably similar, spheres can be observed 'out there'. I find it hard to believe that War of the Worlds was the first time the idea was explored or proposed.
---
As far as I know ancient Summerian and Babylonian writings conjecture that life might exist off Earth and indeed that aliens may have visted our planet. Seperating practical theorizing from mythologizing is of course difficult with ancient works. Anyhow, this places the idea of extraterrestrial life 3000 to 4000 yrs before the present day. Whether there were earlier theories I don't know. In other places where astronomy was independently invented (India, China etc.) its probably fair to assume that the idea of aliens must have arisen. Note that the five inner planets (excluding Earth) would all have appeared very unique to any society capable of looking at the stars systematically and would long have appeared good candidates for life.
greys, raelians, pleiadians, etc, etc...
hello there. i'm not someone who believes in these things personally, but having spent a good amount of time in Marin County (probably the new-age capitol of the world for those of you who don't know) -- and also listening to the Art Bell show -- i can tell you that there are a LOT of people who believe in things such as the "grey" aliens and pleiadians (among many other types) sincerely, all throughout the country. i find the folklore associated with it all to be interesting for its bizarreness, and would like to include a little something about some of these "species" and the most common folklore associated with them. is there any reason to avoid articles about this type of thing? the article on pleiadians, for example, only mentions the band, but the belief in an alien/"extra-dimensional" species by that name seems likely to me to be more widespread than the popularity of the band with the same (apparently derivative) name. if you do a quick google search for the term "pleiadians", for example, you'll find an astounding slew of articles about people who have supposedly had contact with them in one way or another. the main reason that i hesitate has to do with the fact that this article is in the domain of "science" and "scientific speculation", and i don't want to muddy that up with new-age garbage. nonetheless, i think people should be able to find articles on these topics in wikipedia. thoughts? --neutralrobotboy
- I would think that such a discussion, if handled appropriately and well-referenced, would be approptiate to this article. However, evetually it would seem to me that this article should be split into articles about extraterrestrial life in general, as in microorganisms and such, the possibility of which, at least, isn't all that controversial to mainstream science, and Extraterrestrial Intelligence, which is much more controversial. MikeDockery 11:07, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Edits in the "Beliefs in Extraterrestrial Life" section...
I added in some information about a recent scientific journal article, the authors of which present a case for mainstream science to reevaluate its stance on the UFO phenomenon. I tried to edit the information in a way that made it clear that, although this article was published in a mainstream, peer-reviewed journal, the vast majority of mainstream science, for the time being at least, still holds such claims as completely bogus. I cited the journal in a reference section. In the interest of present the most current information on this topic, I feel this article deserves mention. However, I am aware of the danger of making a (very much) minority opinion seem more mainstream than it is. Opinions? MikeDockery 11:13, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
_
It seems fine to me. The UFO thing is considered "completely bogus" not because it's been falsified but because there is no evidence one way or the other--ie. its improbable but it hasn't been disproven which is worth noting. If you've found someone respectable in favour of the idea, all good Marskell.
I thought the idea of Wikipedia was to present a NPOV? If you won't present information without any evidence, then I suggest we remove all references to God, as there is no scientific evidence for his existence either. By yiour own argument, God fits exactly into t he same category - 'no evidence one way or the other--ie. its improbable but it hasn't been disproven which is worth noting'
I think the reluctance to include information regarding aliens is to do with scientific snobbery, not lack of proof. So, in the interests of balance are we including Greys, Pliediens et al, or are we removing God ?
Furthermore, your statement 'If you've found someone respectable in favour of the idea, all good' is similarly rubbish. The 'respectable' (a VERY unscientific criteria) people who propose God are no more or less qualified than the 'respectable' people who propose Greys. The hidden part of your sentence is the implication that anyone who believes in aliens isnt respectable, which is biassed, arrogant and bigoted, and highly objectionable, especially since at least ONE US President believed in aliens. In actual fact , there is NOONE on this planet with any more proof of God than anyone with lack of proof of aliens, and vice versa. A
fter all, there's no scientific difference between the sentence ' Some people claim they have been contacted by God' and 'Some people claim they have been contacted by Aliens', no proof anywhere that makes one more valid, rational and believeable than the other.
You entire bigotry to the subject is appalling, and a disgrace to the NPOV of Wikipedia. I intend to insert a section summarising the proposed types of aliens,.
AS for 'a (very much) minority opinion' i want to see the statistical evidence that it is. In fact, I read recently that at least 40% of americans believe in extraterrestrials, and I think 80 million people is hardly an insignificant figure. A much smaller percentage in the UK believe in God, giving him less claim to be in Wikipedia than Greys. Since the scientific opinion is that life on earth began from interstellar precursors, not some mythical pandimensional superbeing, then God's place in Wikipedia becomes even less desireable, but im willing to put up with the unproven concept 'God' as long as Wikipedia doesnt have an anti-athiest anti-alien bias - after all my view that aliens are more likely to exist than God is perfectly valid.
Ok, any further comment, anyone , before I begin?
- I assume you were addressing me...I made the "very much minority opinion" comment. In the scientific community, the belief in extraterrestrial life visiting Earth is spacecraft is, for better or for worse, held by only a very small minority. Among the general public, you may be right, though I don't have any statistics. Encyclopedia articles should reflect the current opinion of mainstream science, not the general opinion of an uniformed public. 50% of Americans don't believe in Biological Evolution as the source of life on Earth, but that shouldn't be the stance of an encyclopedia article, given the opinon of mainstream scientists. That's what I tried to reflect in my edit. The current scientific opinion is that UFOs are not alien spacecraft. However, I did indicate that there has been at least one article in a mainstream scientific journal that has called for scientists to reevaluate that position. If anything, my edit made the article MORE open toward the belief in Aliens, not LESS. So what are you complaining about? And I don't think I have an anti-alien bias. I'm certainly open to the possibilty, especially after reading the journal articles that I mentioned in my edit. I just wanted the article to reflect the current mainstream scientific opinion, not just my own. --MikeDockery 06:57, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Who are you talking to? There is no one author of this article and nobody has claimed that this article is complete. Your accusatory tone is less than helpful. What you talk about would be appropriate to include in the == Beliefs in extraterrestrial life == section. --mav 14:55, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- First, the articles are expected to have NPOV. The discussion page is an entirely different matter. If I want to come on here and say "aliens are the stupidest idea out there" or "I fervently believe in aliens and wish others did too" I'm quite within my rights. Claiming "(my) entire bigotry to the subject is appalling, and a disgrace to the NPOV of Wikipedia" is a little hysterical to put it mildly. Be careful before swinging your stick: "scientific opinion is that life on earth began from interstellar precursors." Since when? Panspermia is one idea amongst many but is very far from a majority opinion.
- Secondly, you seem to think I was critical of posting more info on the idea when the opposite true. Alien visitation HASNT been falsified which IS worth noting. By "respectable" I meant a peer-reviewed article, obviously. I do believe that aliens are 'out there,' incidentally, though I'm much more skeptical regarding visitations.
- As for the edition to the article, it should be linked to it's own page and provided appropriate background. No context is given on who believes in these particular aliens and why. Is this an alternate universe from fiction? The views of a particular sect? "JANOSIAN This is allegedly a planet on which human beings live or once lived." Alleged by whom? The edition is cluttered and quite random. I'll leave for two days so someone can move it then delete. Marskell 14:43, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
=
You see, this is the trouble with wikipedia. Certain people think they 'own' certain pages, and wont tolerate anyone posting anything that they dont like, and this is one of those pages (Human Evolution is another one). That list was compiled by going through all the UFO and Alien websites. im not going to quote any of the websites, it would take too long. The point is, its a list representing the supposed beliefs of the collective mass that beliece. Why they believe requires a page for each entry because it would make the article too big, which means further work is required, lots of pages to create. The speed you deleted it shows you simple wont tolerate anyone messing with 'your' page. I assume in the interests of NPOV, you will also remove all references to 'God' as there is no evidence for him either?
So I will put my list back, and continue to add pages for each entry, and if you delete it again, then we shall take your censorship to arbitration.
AS for your comments:
- 'scientific opinion is that life on earth began from interstellar precursors' - we'll SOME scientific circles believe it, others believe in other things. Here your personal bias shows up.
- 'By "respectable" I meant a peer-reviewed article, obviously' - well guess what, not obviously, and most of the pro alien websites are 'peer reviewed', by the same definition. Its a nonsense biassed statement!
- Seems to me you're the only one looking for an argument. My comments above were pretty clear and fair: the edition was random and cluttered--add a page and appropriate context. You don't want to link to websites? Then re-consider the post. Honestly, it just read stupid. How about " for supposed types of aliens see the 'Extraterrestrial Types' page (or whatever you like)." You know? No big deal. As the person above me noted, no one person wrote this page and no one thinks they own it. It's not a pro- or anti- anything, it's just a matter of making a readable, cogent article with emphasis in the right places.
- At the risk of going in circles, PANSPERMIA IS VERY MUCH A MINORITY OPINION. You have seem to have a lot to say about POV and so forth, well "some people" and "some scientific circles" is as weasley as it gets when it comes to POV. Yes, some scientists believe that Earth-life originated off Earth (or at least acknowledge the possibility) but the majority don't and it isn't my bias in pointing that out. As for your repeated arguments about God, again you sound a touch a hysterical so I think I'll leave it...Marskell 22:38, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Fear of Alien Invasion
I think that there is life outside of Earth; the odds are too high against no life other than on Earth. I also think that the fear of aliens attacking Earth and killing all of us is groundless. If there are any civilizations outside of Earth that are remotely like ours, then they will also have religion, or at least consciences that will not allow them to completely wipe us out. Instead, I think that, if they are ahead of us technologically, then they will take the initiative and contact us first, and vice versa if we discover them first.
- I don't see an automatic reason for first contact. It may be harmful to both Earth and said extraterrestrial civilization. At the least, there could be some sort of bureacratic decision process distributed over many light years. Incidentally, there is a fair amount of science fiction on "first contacts" that went wrong (eg, The Day the Earth Stood Still, The Mote in God's Eye,The Madness Season). Probably a wee bit too specialized to warrant a place in Wikipedia. - KarlHallowell 01:42, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
Probability of existence of extraterrestrial life
Maybe page about extraterrestrial life shoud contain some estimation of probability of existence of another life in our galaxy, in our univesrse, etc?
slanty eyed picture of aliens
We need a visual section here, with pictures of what people have described aliens to be. Something like this (http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&lr=&q=alien+eyes) MPS 14:45, 23 May 2005 (UTC)