Talk:Dresden

A check though "What links here" will give many hints as to how this entry could be richer and deeper. Wetman 03:04, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Article needs a little bit of re-wording--Comrade Nick 02:23, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I wrote it in deep night within two minutes and I am not a native speaker. Sorry, I forgot that I wrote the text, I will do some re-wording, and others are welcome to join.

I'd be happy to. In fact, I intend to help with its editing, because I'm that in its present state it lacks the proper qualities of an encyclopædia.--Ingoolemo 01:34, 2004 Jun 9 (UTC)

Okay, my rewrite is done. I'm afraid I couldn't put anything in the edit summary, because I forgot to. But hopefully it's much improved.

---

Concerning this sentence (that also has some grammatical problems...)

The population is said to frequently discuss topics such as architecture and æsthetics regularly.

Is this true? Who says this? In fact, as a citizen of Dresden, I have not witnessed any unusual amount of discussion ;-) --Markus Krötzsch 03:36, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Overall, I think the article is a bit too dramatic in its wording. Dresden is certainly a beautiful city, but some of the statements of this article exaggerate quite a bit:

• The city has become a world leader in many sections of culture, ... -- World leader in culture? Come on! Okay, I come on. But there are rather many world records. Anyway, you could be right that my language is too much in favour. ;-)
• Houses ..., built by famous king and artists from all over the world... -- rather "all over Europe"; I agree again.
• many prestigious research centers in Dresden still have their primary headquarters in the west -- "still"? Would we expect them to move? (One could rather say: "Many research centers have already established facilities near Dresden") why not ? I wanted to point out that even despite Dresden is known as success story there is still a very long way to be competitive with Munich etc. And yes, in earlier times very many of the today´s western headquartes were in Dresden.
• East Germany had been the richest Communist country -- I do not know. Are you sure? (What means "rich": life standard, economy, state treasury?) yes, I am sure, it was the richest in all meanings, so that doesn´t matter.

Finally, the structure could include a section Economy, where the related information -- especially concerning the re-unification process -- is collected. Sorry for only giving these "hints" instead of doing it myself... maybe later. --Markus Krötzsch 04:06, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC) thanks, I like hints. Most of that was done meanwhile by native speakers, some of them living in Dresden.

I agree with all of what you wrote. Get-back-world-respect 14:33, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Contents

1 Devastators? 2 Article wording and language improved! 3 Numbers regarding dead people and destroyed houses, flats. 4 News 5 Poor Caption 6 Photos 7 Polish name 8 Polish stupidity

Devastators?

Dear authors you should use "devastated by US World War II bombing" instead of "devastated by World War II bombing"!!! --Gutsul (http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D1%83%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%87:Gutsul)

"... by Allied bombing during World War II" would perhaps be better still. Sharkford 18:25, 2004 Sep 16 (UTC)

It was bombed by the Bristish Royal Air force mainly, only slightly supported by US forces. NetguruDD

Article wording and language improved!

I just did about an hour of editing and tinkering on the main article page,mostly because of the poor language. I guees it was written to a large extent by a non-native speaker of English, not a problem but very obvious. Well it was my first major edit but as a native English speaker and someone born in Saxony (there are not many of us, I suppose) I used my knowledge of the city to clear up the wording of the article. I also edited a few details out and moved some things around. All in all I think it makes the article a lot easier to understand. Kris Sept. 26

Numbers regarding dead people and destroyed houses, flats.

25.000 dead people were found and burried. It is nearly absolutely sure that in fact it were many more, for example many burnt. The total nummber is estimated most often to be sommething around 35.000, other serious sources say 125.000 or even more, neonazi propaganda says 300.000-450.000 refering to the American Red Cross 1945. During the last weeks of the war the administration spoke about only 16.000. The truth is that everything between 25.000-140.000 can be true and official statistics after the 1950s used all numbers between 25.000-160.000, in both parts of Germany. I as Dresden maniac and citizen guess something around 45.000, but it is very hard to estimate and 140.000 sounds reasonable if you imagine all those comepletey destroyed living quarters with 6 floors in each big building. On the other hand many people survided even out of completely destroyed houses. The city was populated with 570.000 out of former 630.000 citizens and the same number of refugees from the east front. Somebody changed a picture description to: 75% of the -center- was destroyed, this is wrong because the center was destroyed complety. The city is rather big in area, much bigger than usually a city with that amount of population. So the damage was rather different in each quarter, but 79% of all flats, not necesarrily houses, had "some" damage (total and meaningless counted together). There were 222.000 flats in total. 75.000 of them totally destroyed, 11.000 strongly hit, 7.000 hit, 81.000 slightly damaged. The innercity in those times were closer built than today. The villa districts suffered much less destruction than other quarters. The militaric facilities in the north of the city were not hit, but they had not much meaning in the last weeks of the war anyway. Most material was on the east front, the city was not meaningful defended against air strikes and it also was not a militarically important center. It is not sure that the optical industry was used for militaric weapons, this is only pure guessing. Please don´t get me wrong. I don´t want blame anybody for anything, I like the US and Britain, just help to stick to the facts. Some recent changes went out of control. NetguruDD 07:00, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Hi Netguru, I changed "total and meaningless" to "total, meaningless" in the article picture caption, but I'm not sure what you meant by "meaningless", now I read your comment here. Do you mean "total and slight" damage? Meaningless means "sinnlos". Oh, and what are "marshalling yards" in German? Saintswithin 12:49, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Hi Saintswithin, yes I mean total and slight, thanks a lot for your attention and helpful remarks, this is not the first time you helped. About marshalling yards, I also wondered. This expression was not edited by me, I thought it was done by a native English speaker because he was refering to a book written in English. I also had no idea what it could mean in this abstract. NetguruDD 04:12, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

News

This evening, the FIDE declared that Dresden will hold the "Olympic Games" of Chess in 2008. The "Olympic Games" in chess could not been established as part of the Olympic Summer games despite the FIDE tried so. Already 2004 the European women´s championship took place in Dresden. I don´t know if the first thing is worth to be published here on the Dresden wikipedia site. I only saw that CNN was reporting rather much about the European ladies´ championship. NetguruDD 18:01, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Poor Caption

This caption needs serious rewording:

79% of all flats suffered total, particularly those in bigger inner-city buildings, or negligible destruction; the center became a sea of ruins.

fixed: hopefully I have understood the meaning...? Saintswithin 19:24, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

yes, that´s right now. NetguruDD

Photos

Does anyone have any good photos of Dresden taken during the day? These are all night-time ones! Saintswithin 19:24, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC) The German version of the Dresden thread offers picures of the day. You can use them all, some are from me, others from guys which I know via wikipedia. They are glad if you use the picues. It´s the same with http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwinger_%28Dresden%29 It´s all GNU license.NetguruDD

Polish name

In accordance with Wikipedia:Cite sources and the Talk:Gdansk/Vote I hereby provide the rationale behind adding the Polish name to the header:

1. [1] (http://www.google.pl/search?as_q=Drezno&num=10&hl=pl&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Apl-PL%3Aofficial&btnG=Szukaj+w+Google&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=lang_en&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=)
2. Dresden used to be the Polish capital, most notably during the reign of Augustus II of Poland, who financed much of the baroque reconstruction of the city with the Polis treasury. Also, the city was taken by Polish and Soviet troops in 1945. Halibutt 17:41, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

I disagree. First of all, using the English-language Google only produces 3500 hits, many of which appear to be mirrors of a hotel service. Secondly, Augustus II was the Elector of Saxony who was then elected King of Poland–he's not Polish, and neither was Dresden. Mackensen (talk) 18:09, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

(added after edit conflict)

Regarding the second point: during the reign of Augustus II of Poland, there was a personal union between Saxony and Poland, as Augustus was also elector of Saxony. This perhaps meant that Poland was reigned from Dresden, but that does not make Dresden the capital of Poland, just as the capital of Canada is not London because the Queen of Canada lives there.

About the Polish troops in Dresden: do you really want every mention of Gdansk, Warsaw, or any other Polish city to be followed by the Russian name of the city as well? Eugene van der Pijll 18:11, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Unfortunately for Poland, it was ruled directly from Dresden... Augustus first wanted to enhance his power by seizing the port of Riga. The Saxonian forces were repelled and the Swedish retaliation was against Poland. Then, after the War of Polish Succession, king Augustus III of Poland was ruling from Dresden exclusively. During roughly 30 years of his rule he came to Warsaw three times. His governor in Poland, Heinrich Bruechl, was mostly occupied with earning more money for the baroque palaces and paintings in Dresden, which resulted in a complete decline of the Polish capital. Even minting of the Polish coin was moved to Dresden, which proved to be vital in breaking the Polish economy. After the city was seized by Prussia during the Seven Years War, the Prussians started to produce huge ammounts of Polish currency, which led to hiperinflation in Poland, even if Poland was not directly a part of the conflict. Halibutt 18:30, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

What do you mean by "his governor in Poland"? If Dresden was Polish, surely August wouldn't have needed a governor there?

But thanks for the history lesson; what you are saying is that the Swedish name should also be given at each reference to a Polish city? (And let's not forget Napoleon...) Eugene van der Pijll 18:37, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Dresden was never part of Poland, any more than London was part of Scotland from 1603 to 1707. Saxony was in personal union with Poland from 1697 to 1763, just as England was in personal union with Scotland. James VI after 1603, and Charles I and II, and James VII, and William and Mary, and Anne, all ruled Scotland from London. There were some governmental institutions in Edinburgh, including the Scottish parliament (the Sejm didn't meet in Dresden, did it?), but the most important business was conducted in London. I've never yet heard anybody say London was the capital of Scotland in this period. The same deal with Dresden, which was and is part of Saxony, which has never been considered to be part of Poland. john k 18:58, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Dresden was not part of Poland - and it doesn't have to be. The talk:Gdansk vote mentions a shared history, not shared borders.

Unfortunately for Poland, it was ruled directly from Dresden... Augustus first wanted to enhance his power by seizing the port of Riga. The Saxonian forces were repelled and the Swedish retaliation was against Poland. Then, after the War of Polish Succession, king Augustus III of Poland was ruling from Dresden exclusively. During roughly 30 years of his rule he came to Warsaw three times. His governor in Poland, Heinrich Bruechl, was mostly occupied with earning more money for the baroque palaces and paintings in Dresden, which resulted in a complete decline of the Polish capital. Even minting of the Polish coin was moved to Dresden, which proved to be vital in breaking the Polish economy. After the city was seized by Prussia during the Seven Years War, the Prussians started to produce huge ammounts of Polish currency, which led to hiperinflation in Poland, even if Poland was not directly a part of the conflict.

Which, hopefully, ends this dispute. Halibutt 07:36, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)

Halibutt, if you want to interpret "shared history" to mean that, I suppose we can't stop you, but considering that it is very clear to everybody else here that this is a tortured interpretation, perhaps you would stop it. The cities specifically mentioned as having a "shared history" are cities which were part of both Germany and Poland - Poznan, Szczecin, Gdansk, Wroclaw, and so forth. Not only were these cities very clearly at different times parts of both Germany and Poland, but they were parts of Germany as recently as 1918 or 1945. I don't think anybody (certainly I do not) particularly supports doing the same for cities which were part of Prussia from 1793 or 1795 to 1807, and never again. Dresden is clearly in a completely different class from these various cities. Poznan was always a Polish city, obviously, but it was actually part of the German Empire. Poznan sent representatives to the Reichstag between 1871 and 1918. It was an ethnically Polish city in Germany. Dresden, on the other hand was, as noted, never part of Poland, and it was never an ethnically-Polish city. The comparison is false, and you are simply continuing to make it to prove a point. Yeah, it's terribly unfair that Berlin and Hamburg were never part of Poland so that you can make reciprocity arguments. But the facts of Central European history mean that this is going to be an uneven exchange - many Polish cities are also known by German names, no German cities are known by Polish names. Again, I'm happy to work on changing the rules to make issues more clear, but what you are doing is still deeply silly. john k 16:05, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Let me add (perhaps repeating myself a bit), that your definition of a "shared history" is completely unworkable. Every city in the world can be found to have some "shared history" with a country of which it is not a part. Paris surely had a larger Polish expatriot population than any German city. Poland was ruled from Berlin, Vienna, and St. Petersburg after 1795. There is a large Polish-American population in Chicago, Illinois and Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and so forth. To interpret "shared history" in such a manner as to include all these is to make it absurd. Clearly, the intended meaning of shared history when we were doing the voting was not what you are making it out to be. It is fairly easy to figure out what places are effected by this ruling - just overlay the 1914 Germany map onto the modern Polish map, and include the places where they overlap. I don't think any other idea was envisioned, and I, for one, wouldn't support giving the German names for Galician cities, even, except in cases where the German names were once in common use in English, as with Lviv/Lemberg. But I certainly wouldn't support including "Lemberg" in parentheses next to every reference to Lviv, because these areas were never considered to be "German," even though they were ruled from Vienna, a "German" city (at least before 1866). Anyway, don't you think it suggests something that you are being repeatedly reverted by different people on this? john k 16:12, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

As the example of Bialystok clearly shows, the prevalent interpretation is the same I am using. As I mentioned on your talk page, as a sign of good will I'm going to stop adding the Polish name to articles on German cities other than the ones mentioning Dresden and the cities in the Ruhr Valley.

However, the case of Dresden very clearly falls under the current cross-naming rule, which doesn't mention shared borders or same state but shared history. Both Saxony and Dresden in particular shared the Polish history for roughly a century, that is approximately as long as the majority of pages affected by the rules. If we add the German name to the Polish city of Poznan, which shared the German history for roughly 50 years, then why not add the Polish name here? Especially that it falls perfectly under the shared history criterion. Also, the rules do not mention the ethnicity of the inhabitants or actual ownership of the land. Germany never owned Bialystok or Lemberg (except for WWII period, but this occupation was similar to the Polish and Soviet WWII occupation of Dresden, at least as far as international law is concerned), yet the German name is added there in accordance with the Talk:Gdansk vote. I do not contest that, but I request equal treatment. Nothing more, nothing less.

Also, you're still assuming that I'm trying to prove some point or that the true reason behind my recent actions is my alleged nationalism, which is not the case. I don't have to prove any point since it has already been proven by the community consensus. We might like it or not, but the results of the voting are what they are. Also, it is notable that so many people engaged in a revert war, yet none of them posted any counter-arguments, neither here nor in the edit history. Don't you think it suggests something, John? Also, I don't give a darn whether Berlin was part of Poland or not and I do not think reciprocity is needed, especially that it would be both against common sense and the voting results. I know history is unfair, but this has nothing to do with this dispute. Also, as far as I'm concerned, I would not oppose to adding German names to cities in Galicia, as long as Polish and Latin names are added as well (these were the three official languages there).

Anyway, I tried to reach some other interpretation on the talk pages of both the voting and the template, but to no effect. As long as the current rule is in place, I will continue to use it. That's exactly what it was for, after all and that's exactly what the community wanted. If you have other interpretation of the voting results - you might want to use the respective talk page to convince all the others.

As long as the pages on Amber, Lacznosciowiec Szczecin, Bialystok, Law and Justice, Szczecin-osiedle Sloneczne or Lechia Gdansk need the German name, the articles on Phidias, Vladimir Putin or Friedrich Schiller require the Polish name of the city that used to be the Polish capital. As simple as that. Or perhaps you have some other, more constructive proposal both me and the other side (you, User:Chris 73, User:Boothy443, User:Juntung, User:Curps and others) could accept? Halibutt 17:15, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)

Have you looked at Bialystok? I'll give you a hint, it doesn't include the German name anymore. I removed it three weeks ago, and nobody has put it back. As to counter-arguments, there are already plenty on this page. Presumably, all these people agree with the arguments put forward by Mackensen, Eugene, and me, rather than those you have put forward. At any rate, as to "shared history" - as I said before, you are abusing the meaning of the phrase to make a point. "Dresden" is never known in English by its Polish name, and it was never part of Poland. Poznan clearly "shared German history" by your definition for more than a century - the Prussian-ruled Grand Duchy is very much more a German entity than Saxony ever was a Polish one. Furthermore, there's the basic fact of usage - one is likely to come across English references that call Poznan "Posen," one will never come across ones that call Dresden "Drezno." I notice that you always shy away completely and utterly from any arguments that have to do with actual English usage, rather than abstract principles. Let's enumerate, then, differences between Poznan/Posen and Dresden/Drezno:

1. Posen - used in English; Drezno - never used in English
2. Poznan - was part of Prussia/Germany from 1863 to 1918, and before that in personal union with the German state of Prussia, and ruled from Berlin; Dresden - was never part of Poland, was for a while in personal union with Poland in a state ruled from Dresden
3. Poznan - the province, at least, and possibly the city (I'm not too clear on this) had at least a decent-sized German minority during the nineteenth century; Dresden - neither Dresden nor Saxony has ever had any kind of substantial Polish population

The basic fact is that these two instances are only superficially comparable. And your idea for Dresden provides the example that we must provide the Spanish names for Brussels and Naples - and not only that, but the French, Flemish, and Italian names for Madrid. We would have to give the Greek name for Venice (after all, Venice ruled over many Greek lands for some time), and the Greek, Maltese, Spanish, Hindi, Chinese, and Swahili names for London (Cyprus, Malta, Gibraltar, India, Hong Kong, and Tanzania having been British colonies); we would have to provide the Arabic name for Paris (after all, Algeria was actually part of France); and so on and so forth. It is an absurd interpretation. BTW, I assume your argument would also suggest that we should give the German name for every city in the pre-1772 Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth, since all those cities were ruled from the German city of Dresden? john k 17:50, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I second all that john has said. Why are you doing this Halibutt you have always seemed such a resonable person to me before this. Philip Baird Shearer 19:10, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Saintswithin 06:52, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC) As I understand it, Halibutt is enforcing this rule: For locations that share a history between Germany and Poland, the first reference of one name should also include a reference to other commonly used names, e.g. Stettin (now Szczecin, Poland) or Szczecin (Stettin). An English language reference that primarily uses this name should be provided on the talk page if a dispute arises. [2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Gdansk/Vote#Results_on_VOTE:_Cross-Naming_General) Halibutt, you asked whether anyone had anything to prove that Dresden does not fall into the category mentioned in this rule. The comments above all make perfect sense to me, but clearly they don't address this rule directly. In fact, however, I believe that it is Halibutt who still has to provide proof that Dresden does fall into this category:

• To use the vague language of the rule, Dresden does "share a history" with Poland (in the same way that Londres shares a history with France for example), so according to the logic of the rule Halibutt is perfectly right there.
• Halibutt has provided a list of links on Google to English language sources using "Drezno". Here is a modified version (http://www.google.co.uk/search?as_q=drezno&num=10&hl=en&rls=GGLD%2CGGLD%3A2005-05%2CGGLD%3Aen&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=wikipedia&lr=lang_en&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_occt=any&as_dt=e&as_sitesearch=pl&safe=images). However, the links mostly appear to lead to this site (http://www.drezno.self-catering.inn26.com/), which does not primarily use "Drezno", but uses it only once in this list: "Dresden, Dresden, Dresden, Dresde, Dresda, Dresden, Drezno" (at the bottom of the page). Halibutt, please provide not a list of Google links, but an actual English-language source written by native speakers of English, using "Drezno" consistently. I did look but have not been able to find one: [3] (http://www.google.co.uk/search?as_q=drezno&num=10&hl=en&rls=GGLD%2CGGLD%3A2005-05%2CGGLD%3Aen&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=lang_en&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=uk&safe=images). Saintswithin 06:52, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

At last someone is trying to counter my arguments and not my alleged behaviour or attitude or nationalism or any other bizarre idea. Thanks, Saintswithin.

1. Dresden indeed shares history with Poland, which clearly makes the Vote:Gdansk rule applicable here. I've been told that the rules of that voting are about to change, but so far I have a full right to request the Polish name to be added here - and I will continue to add it until the rule is changed or until someone points me to a Wiki rule that would ban it.
2. As to the links: if Google is not enough, then I can provide a number of other links. Tell me if that's enough (according to the Talk:Gdansk there has to be at least one link, so I guess the following would make it more than apparent. [4] (http://www.geocities.com/polishnobles/eagle.html), [5] (http://www.pgsa.org/Hearldry/HeraldSnob.htm), [6] (http://www.carrefours.info/en/cz_part.html), [7] (http://php-fusion.co.uk/profile.php?lookup=462), [8] (http://www.polishjews.org/shoahtts/02311two.htm), [9] (http://www.artist-info.com/cgi-bin/search/user_search.cgi?action=show_bio&ID=8523), [10] (http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=231937&messageid=1040081736)...

Halibutt 02:50, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)

Hello Halibutt, unfortunately all those links are to things written by Polish people with differing levels of English, except possibly the last one where an anonymous writer comments "Does it mean Germany is ready to return all Slavonic lands it grabbed including Drezno (Dresden), Lipsk (Leipzig), Branebur (Brandenburg) and others ???". If you are serious about this I suppose you'll agree that "an English language reference" does not mean one written by a learner of English. Saintswithin 07:47, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hi, Saintswithin. As to English language, it stays the same whether you speak it as your native language or a foreign one. Of course various people can speak better English than the others, but the actual usage of various terms in the language is not decided by native speakers only, but simply by those who use it, regardless of their background. So, in other words, an English source remains an English source, even if written by an American who can barely speak it or by Japanese scientist who speaks it fluently.

As to the sources I mentioned, the first one (number 4) was written by a Brit, born and raised in London (see [11] (http://www.geocities.com/rafalhm/me.html)). The second one (number 5) was written by an American person of Polish extraction, which also makes me think that the guy should have at least elementary knowledge of the English language. The third one was apparently written by a Czech person (though he could be a Pole as well), the fourth link (though I admit it's not exactly a full source nor a long text) is an account description of someone apparently living in Germany. Next goes a testimony by a holocaust survivor. If you wish I can contact the webmaster of that page (michaelwr@polishjews.org) and ask whether the testimony was written in English or is it a translation from some other language. The next link (number 6), the description of one of German artists of Polish descent) was apparently written by the webmaster of the www.artist-info.com page, which is run from Frankfurt am Main, Germany (see the contact link on that page). Finally, the last one might indeed be a comment by a Pole, I can't say for sure. Halibutt 10:42, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)

Huh, looks like you got me :-S - I thought the first one must be Polish as he had a Polish name. The first two do have OK English, but obviously neither of them have ever taken a course in translating! The first one also fails to anglicise "Wladyslaw" (should be Vladislav); the second one is a translation of a Polish text and capitalises nouns in a creative way. I wonder if they actually know that Drezno is Dresden? Neither is a reliable source, but they both just about fit into the vague language of the rule you're enforcing. In my opinion the rule should say a non-Internet, paper source should be provided, to make sure it really is reliable. Perhaps it should actually make a list of allowable sources, such as the OED etc. Did you say the rule was being changed? Saintswithin 06:47, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Saintswithin, the "arguments above" address the fact that Halibutt is interpreting the phrase "share a history between Germany and Poland" in a way which is technically defensible on a very narrow basis, but which is, in fact, completely absurd, and clearly against the spirit of the rule. This kind of nonsensical legalistic analysis, which Halibutt has made clear that he himself doesn't actually believe in, should be ignored for the tripe it is. The fact that something can be found to fit within a very literal interpretation of a rule should not be decisive here. john k 02:59, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

John, and who exactly gave you the right to decide which interpretation is applicable and which is not? Are you the ArbCom? Or perhaps you're Jimbo's puppet? I don't think so. IMHO your right to interprete the voting results is the same as mine. And that is why you should try to discuss with my arguments, or even try to prove me I'm wrong on this case. But so far your arguments were mostly aimed against me myself and not against my interpretation, which hardly supports any point. Or perhaps calling me childish or telling me to "stop it, stop it, stop it" was an argument but I simply missed it? Halibutt 03:14, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)

It is not just me. It is me and everybody else except for you. If everybody disagrees with your interpretation of the vote, that leads to the suspicion that your interpretation is wrong. I have also repeatedly explained why I think your interpretation is wrong. I will add that I've made numerous, numerous substantive arguments. If you choose to ignore them, that is your business, but you can't ignore them and then claim that I haven't made any substantive arguments. john k 03:28, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

But what does the number of those who oppose me have to do with the voting results? Just take a look at the number of people listed on 3RR or vandalism in progress. Does it give you the right to join them and vandalize wikipedia as well? Also, the points about the terms used in the voting being too broad and prone to different interpretations were raised before the voting even started. Yet, noone decided to change them, so IMO it is fair to assume that people who took part in the voting knew that. And they agreed, forming yet another holy grail of the wiki: the community consensus.

As to your arguments, I've read them all, so I'll try to list them here:

1. Dresden was never part of Poland - which is not a requirement mentioned by the voting rules

   This has been the interpretation of "shared history" which everybody has used up until you started this game. john k 16:27, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

   To be precise: which almost everybody used until the voting started. Halibutt 06:53, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

   No, it is ALSO the definition which everyone has used for the four months since the vote. john k 07:30, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

2. Dresden, which was and is part of Saxony, which has never been considered to be part of Poland - see above

   Ditto. john k 16:27, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

3. it is very clear to everybody else here that this is a tortured interpretation - in other words it is clear to many that their interpretation is better than mine. So..?

   It is clear to everybody except you. You cannot force your views onto articles against a consensus. john k 16:27, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

   But I can force the voting decisions to be applied over the consensus. Or try to reach a consensus on the talk page - and that's exactly what I'm trying to do - and what I'm being bashed for. Halibutt 06:53, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

   I will repeat this very slowly - IF PEOPLE DISAGREE ON WHAT THE VOTE MEANS, YOU ARE NOT ENFORCING THE VOTE. john k 07:30, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

4. The cities specifically mentioned as having a "shared history" are cities which were part of both Germany and Poland - wrong, read the voting results again.

   The cities specifically mentioned are Szczecin and Gdansk, which were part Germany and Poland. I should perhaps have said "the cities given as examples of having a 'shared history.'" john k 16:27, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

   Indeed, the two were given as examples only. Halibutt 06:53, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

5. Dresden is clearly in a completely different class from these various cities - You have a right to have such POV, but don't try to force others to accept it

   Everybody else already agrees with you. You are the one trying to force everybody else to accept your idiosyncratic POV. john k 16:27, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

   No I'm not. I'm trying to force people to stick to their own decisions not only in situations they find plausible, but also in situations they find it hard to accept. The law might be harsh, but it's still a law. Halibutt 06:53, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

   NOBODY ELSE THINKS THE VOTE MEANS WHAT YOU SAY IT MEANS. HOW HARD IS THIS TO UNDERSTAND??? john k 07:30, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

6. Dresden, on the other hand was, as noted, never part of Poland - see No. 1

   See my response. john k 16:27, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

7. it was never an ethnically-Polish city - so..? Perhaps your interpretation of the voting results mentions the ethnicity of the inhabitants, but fortunately such an argument was not included, since it would lead to even more revert wars (just imagine the number of quarrels on who lived there and when). See also No. 1

   Having been an ethnically Polish city would qualify it to have "shared a history between Poland and Germany." This is not the case. john k 16:27, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

   Yup, it would be one of such casesHalibutt 06:53, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

8. The comparison is false - POV again

   Huh? Discussion on talk pages can't be POV. I gave an explanation why I thought your comparison of was not a proper one. How else am I supposed to argue with you? john k 16:27, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

   No need to get offended, it was what I call a mental shortcut. What I wanted to say is that it is your point of view, which you are fully entitled to. However, your own point of view (even if supported by numerous admins) is still just that. Not yet a rule, especially when it enters conflict with the wikipedia rules. Halibutt 06:53, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

   Firstly, the vote on a naming convention is not a "rule." It is not even a policy. It is a convention. If there is a consensus that the convention is absurd, then it needs to be changed, not enforced against a consensus that it is a stupid rule. Even so, most people apparently believe that what you are doing goes far beyond the convention established by the vote, so you are NOT enforcing the vote, just your own interpretation of it. john k 07:30, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

9. you are simply continuing to make it to prove a point - unproved accusation, that could be treated as a personal remark (no offence taken, I'm sure you meant no harm)

   You have yourself virtually admitted that you are disrupting wikipedia to prove a point. john k 16:27, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

   I beg your pardon? I've been accused of trying to prove a point (which is not the case) for quite some time, yet nobody seemed to be kind enough as to provide any proofs for their accusations. You included. Halibutt 06:53, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

   Halibutt, how hard is this to grasp? You are purposefully spending huge amounts of energy here to enforce a particularly strict reading of a rule which you don't agree with in the first place, in order to show how absurd the rule is, so that it will be changed. That is the very definition of disrupting wikipedia to prove a point. john k 07:30, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

10. it's terribly unfair that Berlin and Hamburg were never part of Poland - POV

    This wasn't an argument as to why these cities shouldn't have the Polish name - I was simply saying that history isn't fair. However much one may want to say the situations are equivalent, they are not. My argument was that the situation is simply not equal - lots of Polish cities were under German control, no German cities were under Polish control. john k 16:27, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

    Indeed, the situation is not equal nor was history fair. But what does it have to do with - very precise - rules set by the voting? Halibutt 06:53, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

    The rules set by the voting are NOT PRECISE AT ALL. What "shared history" means is NOT AT ALL CLEAR. It can only be determined by interpretation. A fairly narrow interpretation has been applied up until you came along. Now you are insisting on an absurdly broad interpretation that nobody else agrees with. What you are doing is not enforcing "very precise rules" - you are trying to interpret a vague rule in as broad and literal a manner as you possibly can, in order to show that the rule is ridiculous. john k 07:30, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

11. what you are doing is still deeply silly - again, not a serious argument, I suppose; see No. 9

    No, this is not a serious argument. john k 16:27, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

12. your definition of a "shared history" is completely unworkable - POV. Also, I can work with it quite well, I wonder why so many people can't even try

    I explained why it is unworkable, and the absurd consequences that would attain from expanding its application beyond the issue of Polish/German city-names. john k 16:27, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

    Fortunately, the voting should be applied only to Polish-German history. What-if scenarios of applying the rules to other, unrelated articles might be fun, but have little to do with the voting itself. Halibutt 06:53, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

    A rule which creates completely different standards for the Polish names of German cities from any other cities in the world is a priori invalid. I don't believe that the vote actually did that, but even if it did, it would be absurd to apply rules in such a selective manner. john k 07:30, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

13. Every city in the world can be found to have some "shared history" with a country of which it is not a part - perhaps. That's why I believe that the voting, although done in good faith, resulted in damage done to wikipedia. But if that was the decision of the community, I'm not the one who should unilaterally change that. And neither are you, I believe.

    Halibutt, in the first place, a number of us have said that we think we should have a new vote to try to come up with a more workable standard. In the second place nobody but you interprets the results in this way. As such, you should perhaps defer to everybody else, instead of trying to force your POV through against massive opposition. john k 16:27, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

    Apparently the nobody but me group includes also other contributors. Check my arguments above Halibutt 06:53, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

    What other contributors? Who agrees with you? I cannot think of anybody who agrees with you. Even Witkacy has been essentially silent about this nonsense. john k 07:30, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

14. Paris surely had a larger Polish expatriot population than any German city - unrelated. Also, there were ca. 1 million Poles in the Rhine valley and the Ruhr in early 20th century. Nowadays it is estimated that in the vicinity of Berlin there are some 100.000 to 150.000 Poles living there. Much more than in Paris - ever.

    Alright, whatever. There were surely more Poles in Paris than in Aachen or Mainz. The whole Rhine Valley and the Ruhr cannot be compared to Paris, also.

15. To interpret "shared history" in such a manner as to include all these is to make it absurd - fortunately, the voting is related only to Polish-German history and not to Polish-American, Franco-Polish or any other.

    That is true, but a voting result which results in such absurd inequality in treatment of precisely comparable issues would be invalid, anyway. It makes sense to have special rules for Gdansk or Wroclaw - it doesn't make any sense to treat the Polish diaspora in Berlin any differently from the Polish diaspora in Chicago. john k 16:27, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

    So, the voting is invali because there can't be no equal treatment of articles on Polish and German cities? Hmmm... if you can convince the others to accept that view, it would make sense to me. Halibutt 06:53, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

    The voting isn't invalid. Your interpretation of the voting is invalid. I will submit that if the voting said what you claim it does, it would be invalid. But it is not invalid, because it doesn't actual require what you say it does. john k 07:30, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

16. Clearly, the intended meaning of shared history when we were doing the voting was not what you are making it out to be - again, you have a right to such views, but the result of the voting is as it is. The rest is our interpretation and I believe yours is no better than mine. At least our rights here at WP are equal. Or am I wrong?

    My interpretation has the benefit of having everybody else agreeing with it. Your has the disadvantage that nobody agrees with it except you. john k 16:27, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

    Except me, User:Chris 73, User:Calton, User:Boothy443 and majny others. Halibutt 06:53, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

    Please provide citations of these people agreeing that the Polish name of Aachen should be listed at the top of the page. john k 07:30, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

17. It is fairly easy to figure out what places are effected by this ruling - just overlay the 1914 Germany map onto the modern Polish map - then why wasn't such map attached to the voting? It's part of your interpretation, not of the voting itself

    No, but it is how everybody has interpreted the voting up until now, with the exception of a few examples of silliness like with Bialystok. john k 16:27, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

    Unfortunately not. Halibutt 06:53, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

    Hmm? What is the referent here? john k 07:30, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

18. I don't think any other idea was envisioned - POV again. You don't think so, I do.

    Can you point to anybody at the time of the vote suggesting such a thing? Even you yourself didn't suggest it - you didn't even vote against the proposal. In their votes against the proposal, not a single person suggested it might mean that German cities would get Polish names. john k 16:27, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

    And can you point to anybody suggesting anything to the contrary? Halibutt 06:53, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

    The fact that nobody added Polish names to German cities until you started to do so would suggest that nobody anticipated this as a consequence of the vote. john k 07:30, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

19. I, for one, wouldn't support giving the German names for Galician cities, even, except in cases where the German names were once in common use in English - since Austria and then Austria-Hungary was clearly a German state, the voting results apply also there. You don't have to support it now (although you did when you voted, AFAIR), but you should stick to the voting results

    Austria-Hungary was a multinational state, and Galicia was outside the Germanic Confederation. it has never been considered to be part of "Germany." Certainly Hungarians would beat you to death if you suggested that Hungary was part of Germany because it was ruled by the Habsburgs. john k 16:27, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

    But still, German was one of three official languages of Galicia (the others being Polish and Latin) and until its creation the only language there was German. Also, until 1866 the area was ruled from Vienna directly, so it was a German state, or at least an area under German control and rule. Halibutt 06:53, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

    Unlike Prussia, the Habsburg Monarchy never saw itself as entirely a "German" state. Its Polish and Hungarian lands, in particular, were clearly never seen as German, even if German was sometimes the language of administration. john k 07:30, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

20. But I certainly wouldn't support including "Lemberg" in parentheses next to every reference to Lviv - neither would I. Unfortunately, the voting results require that.

    No, they only do by your tendentious reading of them. Everybody else disagrees. john k 16:27, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

    Yeah, everybody... Halibutt 06:53, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

    Again, you have yet to point to any evidence that anybody actually supports your interpretation. john k 07:30, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

21. don't you think it suggests something that you are being repeatedly reverted by different people on this - again, just take a look at the number of people listed on 3RR or vandalism in progress.

    I have no idea what you are talking about here. when a large number of logged in editors and administrators are reverting a single person, it suggests there is a consensus against that person's edit. Whatever the results of the Gdansk vote, wikipedia runs on consensus, and everybody - whether they agree with that vote or not, agrees that what you are doing here is wrong, and is based on an incorrect interpretation of the vote. john k 16:27, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

    No, to me it suggests only that there is a number of contributors who ispute the voting results, though ar not sure how to do that and, instead of starting a new vote, they engage in silly revert wars. Halibutt 06:53, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

    So you are enlisting vandals as supporters in your cause? I think that speaks for itself. john k 07:30, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

22. Have you looked at Bialystok? I'll give you a hint, it doesn't include the German name anymore. I removed it three weeks ago - indeed, now it does not because Chris 73 did not want to revert your edits. However, it should have the "German" name mentioned as well.

    There is no German name - it is just the Polish name without the line through the "l". At any rate, you were arguing that because German nationalist jerks were adding shit to Bialystok, you were forced to retaliate. This is clearly nonsense, since nothing had been in Bialystok for weeks. john k 16:27, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

    No, it was not a retaliation. For over a month I was trying to reach some compromise on the issue - yet to no effect. Since nobody was interested in finding a solution acceptable to all, I simply waited a month longer than the fellow contributors in applying the rules to where they belong. But it was not a retaliation, just like inserting the German name in a plethora of articles was not an attack but simply following the rules set by the voting. Halibutt 06:53, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

    Keep telling yourself that. Again, why not spend your energies trying to get a vote for amendment. As I said, I would certainly support such a vote. I don't see as I have any particular responsibility to propose a new vote myself, but if you propose it, I will certainly help. john k 07:30, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

23. As to counter-arguments, there are already plenty on this page - hmmm... really?
24. Presumably, all these people agree with the arguments put forward by Mackensen, Eugene, and me, rather than those you have put forward - and why not the other way around?

    Huh? People are reverting you. That suggests that they do not agree with you. Presumably, they agree with Eugene and Mackensen and I because they find our arguments convincing. If they found your arguments convincing, they wouldn't be reverting you. john k 16:27, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

    Nope, see my argument aboveHalibutt 06:53, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

25. as I said before, you are abusing the meaning of the phrase to make a point - see points No. 9. Also, if I take it literally and you're trying to create some sophisticated interpretation, then who is abusing it?

    Well, you, because everyone else thinks your interpretation is absurd. Plus, you don't even like the rule. Why go to all this trouble to enforce a rule which you think is ridiculous? Don't you have other things to do on wikipedia? john k 16:27, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

    Dura lex sed lex, as the Romans used to say... Halibutt 06:53, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

    Conventions on wikipedia are not laws. john k 07:30, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

26. "Dresden" is never known in English by its Polish name - see No. 1
27. and it was never part of Poland - see No. 1
28. Grand Duchy is very much more a German entity than Saxony ever was a Polish one - see No. 1
29. there's the basic fact of usage - one is likely to come across English references that call Poznan "Posen," one will never come across ones that call Dresden "Drezno." - see No.1. Also see the internet sources I provided

    You were trying to claim that the cases of Poznan and Dresden were equivalent, I was simply arguing why they were not. john k 16:27, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)~

    Nope, it was you who brought the whole Poznan-Dresden comparison. Halibutt 06:53, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

    I initially brought it up as an example of a distinction. You then suggested that the cases were comparable. I then argued why they weren't comparable. john k 07:30, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

30. I notice that you always shy away completely and utterly from any arguments that have to do with actual English usage - see No. 1

    Actual English usage is the general wikipedia naming policy. Before we had Talk:Gdansk/Vote, people tried to make arguments based on usage, which was the then operative policy, which you ignored. john k 16:27, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

    Nope, I didn't ignore the rule. All who voted on Talk:Gdansk did. Halibutt 06:53, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

    You ignored the rule for months before that by insisting that all arguments about what to call Gdansk/Danzig be based around the question of who had political control, not what the place is actually called in English language sources. john k 07:30, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

31. Drezno - never used in English - wrong. See No. 29

    Can you find a single English-language book that even so much as mentions the name Drezno? If you can, I will withdraw the accusation. A couple of random ass internet sites don't count. john k 16:27, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

    If I have time perhaps I will. However, so far the links I provided should suffice. The "random ass links" are more than enough, even one should be enough. Halibutt 06:53, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

    One link is not enough, and never has been. And none of the links provided by the google search are of any quality. john k 07:30, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

32. Dresden - was never part of Poland - See No. 1
33. (Dresden) was for a while in personal union with Poland in a state ruled from Dresden - which proves my point here
34. neither Dresden nor Saxony has ever had any kind of substantial Polish population - except for 18th, 19th and 20th centuries, but this is OT here: see No.1

    "Substantial" does not mean "small diaspora population." john k 16:27, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)~

    AAMoF the Polish generic word for "working abroad" is saksy, which comes from the name of Saxonia. It comes from 18th and 19th centuries, when thousands of thousands of Poles migrated there. I don't know the exact numbers, but I guess these could be found somewhere. But it's quite OT here. Halibutt 06:53, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

    So you yourself are admitting that they were not permanent settlers, but temporary migratory workers. I suppose I will admit to being partially wrong, here. But nevertheless, it is not the same thing as those parts of Poland which had significant German settlement (majority or minority). john k 07:30, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

35. And your idea for Dresden provides the example that we must provide the Spanish names for Brussels and Naples - and not only that, but the French, Flemish, and Italian names for Madrid - no, it's not my idea. See No. 15

    It is your idea, unless you can point to somebody else who agrees with your interpretation of the vote. john k 16:27, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

    See above. Halibutt 06:53, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

36. We would have to give the Greek name for Venice (after all, Venice ruled over many Greek lands for some time), and the Greek, Maltese, Spanish, Hindi, Chinese, and Swahili names for London (Cyprus, Malta, Gibraltar, India, Hong Kong, and Tanzania having been British colonies); we would have to provide the Arabic name for Paris (after all, Algeria was actually part of France); and so on and so forth - see No. 15
37. BTW, I assume your argument would also suggest that we should give the German name for every city in the pre-1772 Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth, since all those cities were ruled from the German city of Dresden - yup.

    Then why aren't you spending your time adding those in? I'm sure the Lithuanians would be happy if you added "Wilna" to the names for Vilnius. john k 16:27, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

    Because so far I'm busy here. However, if there comes up some contributor who would like to add the German name there, I would see no problem with that. Halibutt 06:53, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

38. the "arguments above" address the fact that Halibutt is interpreting the phrase "share a history between Germany and Poland" in a way which is technically defensible on a very narrow basis, but which is, in fact, completely absurd - POV. What makes it absurd any more than your views?

    I've explained why I think it is absurd. And, again, my views seem to be accepted by everyone except you. Yours are yours alone. john k 16:27, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

    And again, it's not a valid argument, especially that it's not true (see above)

39. and clearly against the spirit of the rule - so, your interpretation of the spirit of the rule is right while the rule itself is wrong? Strangeargument

    Oh, fuck it. Why don't you sit back for a while and think about the whole mess, and come back in a week and we can work on a new vote to make the damned rule tighter. john k 16:27, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

    I've been trying to reach some solution for over a month now. Isn't that enough? Halibutt 06:53, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

    How, exactly? As I recall, most of your energy was devoted to specious arguments about counting the votes on how to call Gdansk between 1466 and 1793 and demanding a revote on that question. Your time might be better spent actually proposing a vote on this question, which seems to have widespread support and not necessarily any specific opposition. john k 07:30, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

40. This kind of nonsensical legalistic analysis, which Halibutt has made clear that he himself doesn't actually believe in, should be ignored for the tripe it is - and why so? See No.s. 3 and 39
41. The fact that something can be found to fit within a very literal interpretation of a rule should not be decisive here - and why not? If we cannot agree for common interpretation, then we should stick with the letter of the rule.
42. It is not just me. It is me and everybody else except for you - No. 21
43. If everybody disagrees with your interpretation of the vote, that leads to the suspicion that your interpretation is wrong - See No. 21. Also take note that I'm not trying to interprete the voting results at all. I simply take it for what it is and apply it as it is.
44. I have also repeatedly explained why I think your interpretation is wrong - see Nos. 1 to 43
45. I will add that I've made numerous, numerous substantive arguments - See No. 44
46. If you choose to ignore them, that is your business - I did not.
47. but you can't ignore them and then claim that I haven't made any substantive arguments - indeed, se No. 45

Finally: John, please tell me. Do you really believe that Wikipedia could benefit from lack of the Polish name here? Also, do you seriously believe that the WP can benefit from the quarrels over what was decided by the community? And, last but not least, could WP really benefit from the revert wars against the version supported by the voting? I doubt it. Halibutt 05:45, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)

Hello-but, stop your performance here. The beautiful German city Dresden (Baroque pearl) "was" "polish" same as Koenigsberg (polish falsificators wrote in this article that Koenigsberg belonged to poland (!)). And always think, why Lithuanians didn't want an "union" with such country like poland. Zivinbudas 07:07, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You, sir, are not helping. john k 16:27, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm probably going to get flamed alive for this, but.... For an ENGLISH edition of ANY encyclopedia I've never seen more than the English name, and the native name in an article. Cologne, for example, has an article by that name on Encarta and Britannica, with a note of the native German name, Köln. Neither article mentions the original name of the Roman settlement, Colonia Agrippina. But let's take another example. I would expect to find an English article on the Italian city of Milano under "Milan", the English name for the city. I would NOT expect to find Mailand in the article, except under the list of language links (in this case, de:Mailand), although, low and behold, it's there in the history of the city. While I support the ideal that multiple views of history should be taken into account, I should think that a note in the historical foundation of the city and then its later history should suffice (as with both cities I've given examples of, and I can think of others: London/Londinium, Bonn/Bonna, Tyrol/Tirol), and place the appropriate links to articles in other languages. --JohnDBuell | Talk 21:39, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Polish stupidity

You all could see stupid nationalistic games of drunk pole Hello-but here. The same he and few his friends (an "administrator" Piotrus, Witkacy, Balcer and Wojsyl) do on Lithuanian articles.

We Lithuanians fully support our German friends. We have to stop drunk polish rampage together. Best wishes from Vilnius, Lithuania. 85.206.194.242 (Zivinbudas) 07:05, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)