Talk:Documented Palestinian views of the peace process/archive 9

Intro and article location

Palestinian views of the peace process are the documented views of Palistenians on the peace process

Palestinian views of the peace process are the views of Palestinians on the peace process, whether documented or not. Of course, this article need to discuss documented views, because it needs to be verifiable, but I think that sentence is confusing, implying that all views are documented, or that only documented views are "proper" views, somehow. Martin 01:55, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

This is the problem that arises from having an article about documented palistinian views on a page entitled palistinian views. Bensaccount 02:08, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Your edited version seems to handle this problem well. Bensaccount 02:10, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I don't think we need to say "documented" in article titles. For example, we have Tony Blair, not documented facts about Tony Blair, even though our article should (ideally) consist solely of the latter. "documented" should go without saying, given that we're an encyclopedia. Martin 02:15, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

You dont seem to understand. This article is claiming to be about something it is not about. Tony blair is not doing that. Bensaccount 02:17, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

In other words, the Tony blair article is about Tony blair. The Palistinian views article is not necessarily about palistinian views. Its about DOCUMENTED palistinian views. Bensaccount 02:20, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I get this confusion a lot. Some people have trouble understanding second order explanations.

There is a certain standard for inclusion of information in the Tony Blair article: it has to be neutral, informative, verifiable, and so forth. I believe that we should apply the same standard to information about Palestinian views of the peace process as we do to information about Tony Blair. No lower standards, of course, but no higher standards either. Martin 02:26, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I will keep this simple:

An article about X is the definition of X. An article about a point of view on X is the definition of the point of view on X. Whether or not the definition uses documented sources is not the issue here. Bensaccount 03:04, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

An article about The peace process is a definition of the peace process. An article about Palestinian views of the peace process is the definition of Palestinian views of the peace process.

This article is about documented Palestinian views of the peace process and therefore should be Documented Palestinian views of the peace process The article Palestinian views of the peace process should not exist because such things are not known. Bensaccount 03:08, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I've moved it back.

Your first point is irrelevant: "documented" is already implied, because this is an encyclopedia.

Views do vary between Palestinians. That's why there's a plural, and it's not Palestinian view of the peace process. Martin 13:41, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Documented is not already implied; An article about X is the definition of X. An article about a point of view on X is the definition of the point of view on X. Whether or not the definition uses documented sources is not the issue here. [User:Bensaccount|Bensaccount]] 03:04, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The word views in the current title doesn't imply documented wiews. Bensaccount 15:09, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC) (I think you admitted this yourself at one point).

Martin is obviously correct on the name. I also dislike "documented" because it gives a sense of accuracy and balance which does not correspond to the rubbish that this page is mostly composed of. --Zero 13:59, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

That's the third point of the name change; it will stop the rubbish. Bensaccount 15:09, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

And you admit that views vary between Palistinians, Martin. Therefore you also must admit that these views can not all be known considering the large number of Palestinians and the fact that they all have varying views. You really have no point there. Bensaccount 15:12, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Yes, views vary between Palestinians, and not all information about all views can be known. Similarly, dogs vary between examples of that species, and not all information about all dogs can be known. However, we have dog, not documented dogs. The analogy holds.

The fact that this is an encyclopedia implies documented (along with, say, "verifiable", "factual", and "not stuff I just made up"). Martin 16:58, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)