Talk:Demographics of Israel

Is there a reason we give non-Jewish population change numbers in annual percents, and Jewish change numbers in octoannual percents? It's very confusing to compare. (My reading of our numbers is that the non-Jewish population has been increasing faster; is that correct?) DanKeshet 14:42 Feb 15, 2003 (UTC)

The non-Jewish population has a much higher birthrate; the Jewish population has only maintained a higher growth rate because of immigration. The birthrate among most Jews in Israel and internationally is actually quite low (typically 1.4), the Jewish birthrate in Israel (~2.6?) is only above the replacement-rate because the Jews of local Arab origins maintain an extremely high birthrate (6 or 7?) not unlike the Amish. So when you take religion out of the picture, Israel is steadily becoming `Arab` again.

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"While the non-Jewish minority grows at an average rate of 4.9% per year, the Jewish population has increased by more than 27% (3% per year) since 1989 as a result of massive immigration to Israel, primarily from the republics of the former Soviet Union. Since 1989, nearly 841,000 such immigrants have arrived in Israel, making this the largest wave of immigration since independence. In addition, almost 20,000 members of the Ethiopian Jewish community have immigrated to Israel, 14,000 of them during the dramatic May 1991 Operation Solomon airlift."

Gaaak. Surely these detailed statistics don't belong at the beginning of the page?

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The paragraphs about Israeli dance and art are not relevant to an article on demographics. They should be moved to Israeli culture or somewhere else.

Don't be timid. Go for it. Do it!! Unless someone convincingly argues otherwise in the next few units of time.

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" Official figures do not exist as to the number of atheists or otherwise non-affiliated individuals, who may comprise up to a quarter of the population referred to as Jewish."

How is this possible? Everyone in Israel is officially classified as Jewish or non-Jewish and required to carry identity cards showing this information. Keith from Calgary 06:40, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Identity cards don't show religious belief. Atheist Jews and religious Jews get the same cards. However, there are opinion polls about religious belief in Israel; if I come across one I'll include the figures. --Zero 09:38, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)

But they are officially classified for purposes of the marriage laws - surely there would be "official figures" available.

Hundreds of thousands of people immigrated to Israel under the Law of Return but do not qualify as Jews in Israel. Where are they in the ethnic and religious classifications? I suspect they are included in the 80.1% Jewish religion and 80.1% Jewish ethnicity classes, even though many of them are Orthodox Christians or unafilliated. Is this correct? ... After a bit more research I see that all this stuff comes straight fron the US Central Intelligence Agency (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/is.html), which in turn obtains it's "facts" from the Israeli government. So much for NPOV. Keith from Calgary 06:40, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Non-Jews who immigrate to Israel as family members of Jews get an id card showing "Christian" or "Muslim" (if s/he is one of those), or with that field left blank or marked as none (if not). They won't normally get "Jewish" unless they claim to be Jewish. A relative who claims to be Jewish can probably get a card with "Jewish" on it. However, if that relative wants to get married, buried, etc, having "Jewish" on their id card does not guarantee they will be treated as a Jew. If any suspicions are raised, that person's background can be investigated and it is quite possible for them to find themselves unable to legally marry in Israel at all, or to be buried in a Jewish cemetary. Cyprus does good business from Israeli couples who go there to get married because they aren't allowed to be married in Israel or because they are secular and don't want a religious ceremony. Such overseas marriages are at least recognised by Israel when they return. --Zero 23:08, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Is there a "field" for "religion" or "natioinality" or both?24.64.166.191 08:04, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You said above that "Identity cards don't show religious belief". But regardless of the id cards, people are classified for purposes of marriage, burial, etc. Why are no "official figures" available? and to repeat my question, "Where are they in the ethnic and religious classifications?" Keith from Calgary 06:40, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

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Literacy:
definition: age 15 and over can read and write
total population: 95%
male: 97%
female: 93% (1992 est.) I think the definition of "literacy" does not fit the numbers: According to the age structure, the definition must be wrong. As 28% of the Israeli population is below 14, it is impossible that 95% of the population is older than 15 and can write. I think the definition of analphabetism could be "age 15 and over and can read and write". If nobody objects, I will change the definition. --zeno 16:03, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Page is getting dated

This page is getting dated. I would like to update it based on numbers at Israel Central Bureau of Statistics (http://www.cbs.gov.il/lmsrce.cgi?p=!srch&r=0&f=3&o=0). For example, total population:

1996,5757.90

1997,5900.00

1998,6041.40

1999,6209.10

2000,6369.30

2001,6508.80

2002,6631.10 (this is the figure given on this page)

2003,6749.00

Jewish population:

1996,4616.10

1997,4701.60

1998,4785.10

1999,4872.80

2000,4955.40

2001,5025.00

2002,5094.20

2003,5161.50

Sounds like a good idea to me. By the way, you might want to get a userid. Jayjg 04:47, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

If I do this it will be controversial. Israel Central Bureau of Statistics (http://www.cbs.gov.il/lmsrce.cgi?p=!srch&r=0&f=3&o=0) includes settlers in the population. They also include tourists (mostly Jewish) but exclude foreign workers (non-Jewish). They also include anyone who has Israeli citizenship or permanent residency who has been in Israel in the last 12 months. They also include "non-Arab Christians" as "Jews and others". The object is clearly to inflate the "Jewish" proportion of the population. If I update this page I will use the standard definitions of population.

"Settlers" are citizens of Israel; I don't see any particular issues with any of the other definitions either, and don't think most other countries do it much differently. Please get as userid. Jayjg 23:46, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Most civilized countries define "population" as the number of people who are actually in the country on census day regardless of legal status (or race, religion or ethnicity). By this definition the Jewish population of Israel is declining and Jews are already a minority in Israel and the (occupied) territories.

"Civilized countries" is a highly POV term. Most countries do not include many people, including guest workers, tourists, illegal immigrants, etc. as part of the population, regardless of whether or not they are in the country on census day. This article is not about the demographics of the territories, other articles already describe that. Jayjg 15:54, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

When the ICBS collects population numbers for regions and towns in Israel, they are based on the number of people who actually live there. These numbers are used by governments and companies to plan roads, shopping centres, etc. to accommodate people who actually live there. If you add up these numbers you get a 50% Halacha Jewish population of Eretz Israel. To get the 80% number you have to add the settlers and emigrants and anyone who once had permanent residence status and the "others" (Russian Christians) and subtract non-Jewish foreign workers. I'm not sure about the tourists, I suspect they assume they are all Jewish and make a generous estimate of their numbers to boost the Jewish %.24.64.166.191 06:44, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The problems with ethnic categorization in a state that discriminates by religion

• 1. The ethnic categories section categorizes Israelis as either Jews (80.9%) or Arabs (19.1%) but Jews and Arabs are not mutually exclusive. Arab is an ethnicity or nationality but Judaism is a religion, not a nationality. It is possible to be both an Arab and a Jew (as mentioned later in the article).
  • Jew is an ethnicity much like Arab (as mentioned in the Jew article. Only revisionist deniers wishing to deligitimize the identity of Jews claim otherwise. Jayjg 04:16, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Judaism is a religion like many others, not a nationality. Only Zionists and Nazis consider Jews a race or nationality; hardly a coincidence that these racist concepts have common 19th century European origins. --Alberuni 05:38, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Judaism is a religion, and Jews are an ethnicity or people, like many others, despite your attempts to deligimitize their peoplehood. The hypocrisy of crying that "Palestinians" are a people and complaining that others are trying to deligitimize their peoplehood, while trying to do the same to Jews, is amusing. Jayjg 20:09, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• 2. The figure for "Jewish" includes immigrants from the former USSR who are either Christian or other religion (or none). Does this make sense? Russian Christians are counted as Jews in Israel?
  • I don't know how the counting works. Jayjg 04:16, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

First time you admit ignorance. The description of the ridiculous method was in the Israeli government census page. --Alberuni 05:38, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I'll look if I have time. Jayjg 20:09, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• 3. "Traditionally" Jews are divided into Ashkenazim, Sephardim, Yemenite Jews. What tradition is this exactly? An Israeli tradition? An Ashkenazi tradition? More specifics here would be useful.
  • Actually there are two or three major distinctions, Ashkenazim and Sepharadim, or perhaps Ashkenazim, Sepharadim, and Mizrahim. It is a Jewish tradition, based on the different histories of the groups. Jayjg 04:16, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

You have added no information. It doesn't look like much of a tradition if there are 2 or 3 categories. Which is it? When and where did this Jewish "tradition" arise? Is it an 18th century European construct, (no doubt). --Alberuni 05:38, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

LOL! "No doubt". And you have the audacity to claim that I fail to "admit ignorance". The distinctions relate to origins, liturgy, customs, Hebrew dialects, legal codes, etc., and date at least as far back as the 11th century when the distinctions became more pronounced. Jayjg 20:09, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• 4. Why are Yemenite Jews distinct from Sephardim?
  • Because their ancestors never lived in Spain. Jayjg 04:16, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The Sephardic Jews are descended from the same Arab Jews as the Yemenite Jews, presumably.--Alberuni 05:38, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It's not wise to presume. All Jews descended from the same origins. Yemenite Jews have their own unique history, as do Sephardi Jews and others. Jayjg 20:09, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• 5. Why are African Jews Sephardim except for South African Jews who are Ashkenazi?
  • South African Jews descended from Lithuanian Ashkenazi Jews. Jayjg 04:16, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This is new information that could go in the article. When did they emigrate and why? --Alberuni 05:38, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Persecution, opportunity; same as all Russian Jews. Jayjg 20:09, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• 6. Why are European Jews Ashkenazim except for Spain and Portugal Jews who are Sephardim?
  • Ashkenzim went through Rome north through Italy into Germany, and from there eastwards. Sepharadim went through North Africa to Spain with the Arabs/Muslims, then were expelled centuries later to various places. Jayjg 04:16, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Good answer. So you will agree that there are European Jews, right?--Alberuni 05:38, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

In what sense? There are Jews who live in Europe now. Jews have lived in various parts of Europe for at least 2,000 years. Jayjg 20:09, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• 7. Why are Jews from Islamic countries called Oriental Jews except for Jews from Yemen who are Yemenite?
  • Yemenite Jews are also Oriental. Jayjg 04:16, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Now we are getting somewhere. The categories are false distinctions. --Alberuni 05:38, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Why? Yemenite Jews are one of the Oriental Jewish groups. Jayjg 20:09, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• 8. What is the difference between an Oriental Jew and a Sephardic Jew?
  • Their ancestors never lived in Spain. Jayjg 04:16, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Good answer. So you will agree that there arre Arab Jews, right? --Alberuni 05:38, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Arab Jews in what sense? There are Jews who live in Arab countries now. Jews have lived in various Arab countries or regions for at least 2,000 years. Jayjg 20:09, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• 9. What do you get when you cross a Sephardim and and Askenazi?
  • A mix. It happens quite regularly. Jayjg 04:16, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Combining false categories results in a "mix". If you are going to maintain your labels on people, you are going tohave to do better than that. If you fail to keep people in their ethnic categories, you may begin to treat Sephardim as if they are equal to Ashkenazi and non-Jews as if they are equal to "mixes".--Alberuni 05:38, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Until recently the groups lived in distinct areas, and mixing was quite rare. In the mid and late 20th century most of the groups emigrated to mixed areas, and naturally individuals from the different groups started marrying each other. I can't make heads or tails of your last statement, it seems to reflect some sort of unclear political gibberish. Jayjg 20:09, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I am very interested in what would be the intermarriage (not to mention the unmarried stuff) and assimiliation % over the preceding centuries. Since Jews were heavily involved in trade and commerce I thought they would be attracted to cosmopolitan trading centres where opportunities for "mixing" would be plentiful.24.64.166.191 07:28, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• 10. What's the difference between an Israeli Arab and a Jew from an Arab country that emigrates to Israel?
  • Their ancestry and history. Jayjg 04:16, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

What is the "ancestry and history" of "Israeli Arabs". These articles are strangely silent on this subject. Could they be descended from the lower class Jews who remained in Palestine after the Romans killed or expelled 25% of the "Jewish" population (the rebellious religious & political elite) in 135?

Yes, that and the fact that the Jew from any Arab country (or anywhere in the world) is granted more rights in Israeli occupied Palestine than an indigenous Israeli Arab who is not a Jew. (Military service, education, jobs, loans, etc, etc). --Alberuni 05:38, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Nonsense not supported by the facts. By the way, Israeli Arabs also serve in the IDF. Jayjg 20:09, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

These are some of the questions raised by the false categories created by the racist state of Israel.--Alberuni 23:59, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Actually, those are just questions raised by people who are ignorant of Jews and falsely characterize Israel as racist. Israel didn't invent these categories, and only revisionist deniers who wish to deligitimize the identity of Jews describe them as "false". Jayjg 04:16, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

There is no way to delegitimize the identity of Jews. The Jewish identity will always exist as a religion. In fact, Israel does reinforce the categories of Jew versus Arab as if they are mutually exclusive, which they are not, and this categorization is the basis for the discriminatory and oppressive policies of the Jewish state. The Jewish supremacist state policies of Zionist Israel are clearly discriminatory against non-Jews. To claim otherwise is willful ignorance of the privileged class. Zionism is more damaging to Jews than any non-Jew or anti-Semite can be. Of course, fanatic Zionists can never accept this responsibility and will continue pursuing their ideology of Jewish supremacism until Israel totally destroys itself and many of its Jews along with it. --Alberuni 05:38, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Another revisionist denial screed displaying ignorance of Jews and a blatant attempt to deligitimize the identity of Jews. Wikipedia articles are for facts, not for spreading your extremist political beliefs. Jayjg 20:09, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Link is dead

The population demographic link is dead yet some anon keeps updating Israeli population in the Occupied Territories. [1] (http://194.90.153.197/shnaton54/st02_07x.pdf) --Alberuni 04:05, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)