Talk:Deir Yassin massacre

Template:OldpeerreviewTemplate:Oldvfd See /Archive for discussions mostly around Autumn 2003. Evidently these discussions led to a rewrite of the page and are difficult to follow now. Gadykozma 04:52, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

See /Archive2 for discussions around the representation of the Irgun and Lehi as terrorists. If you disagree with the current formulation you are strongly advised to read this discussion, as it contains lots of relevant information (as in, things you probably don't know). I left on the main page Joseph's final words (see below) since I had the impression it related to other occurrances around Wikipedia as well. Gadykozma 14:06, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Contents

1 Eyewitness testimony 2 Sid Zion, again 3 You wanted some evidence... 4 How many were killed? 5 NPOV tag 6 I give up 7 Irgun, Etzel IZL 8 Question of Translation or Meaning 9 Message sent to me 10 Too long

Eyewitness testimony

It occurs to me, on reading the article, that most of the so-called 'eyewitness testimonies' are nothing of the kind - at best, they'd be eyewitness reports of what the aftermath appeared to be; at worst, they're inexpert speculation based on what the witnesses saw. To take Dr Engel's testimony as an example, he didn't turn up on the scene until significantly after the events; he clearly can't be an eyewitness to them. At most, he's a witness to the debris of the battle/massacre. This distinction is vitally important, and isn't made in any way in the article.

FWIW, the eyewitness testimonies also seem to contradict each other in many ways. The Irgun perspective seems to have been given remarkably little space/priority, too.

Examples of seeming contradictions:

Mohammed Jaber, a village boy, observed the guerillas break in, drive everybody outside, put them against the wall and shoot them.

-v-

Dr. Alfred Engel's eyewitness account (11th April): In the houses there were dead, in all about a hundred men, women and children.

-v-

Mordechai Gihon's account from the 9th: I estimated that there were four pits full of bodies, and in each pit there were 20 bodies, and several tens more in the quarry.

As an aside, I'm not sure the 107 minimum figure is in any way accurate or reliable - it's supposed to be a count of the number of dead following the entire incident - and the article seems quite clear that there were many killed in the fighting before the massacre began.

J-o-s-h hi, and welcome to Wikipedia. Thanks for trying to improve the article. It seems that you edited the beginning of the article so as no to say explicitly that a massacre indeed happened. It is true that a certain group denies that there ever was a massacre, but it seems that this is a very small group. The massacre is practically universally acknowledged, including within Israel. Therefore to preserve neutrality, it is best if this view is described at the end of the article rather than at it's beginning. Gady 03:06, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I don't think there's any doubt that there is some truth behind the story, but exactly what that truth is should surely be up to the reader to decide? Pejorative terms like 'massacre' are hardly NPOV. It is indisputable that there was an incident known as the DY Massacre; it is disputed as to exactly what took place. (I'm not going to change it back again without discussion, but I've noticed the same trend in various places on Wikipedia.)

I'm coming at this from a NPOV in that I've been trying to find out what actually happened. I don't think the article helped in any way; there has been deliberate obfuscation of the issue for so many years by so many different parties with conflicting political agendae that the actual truth is now undiscoverable. As such, I don't think it's possible to do a NPOV of this in any way other than to report all the various allegations and counter-allegations relating to the DYM. It's certainly not NPOV for the authors to be making judgements as to which statements are more believable. Reporting that almost everybody (including me, just to make that clear ;) believes that there was a massacre is objective fact. Reporting that the evidence shows there was a massacre is a subjective judgement.

Have you any comments on the eyewitness issue? Also, on further reading it occurs to me that there is clearly something missing from the part about the attack - no reasons are given as to why it took place, afaics.

I think it might be of benefit to start again from the beginning with a list of the indisputable facts of the issue. Josh

I am not sure I understand you objection: is the article unclear or is it unconvincing? Gady 21:50, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It's not only unclear, it's also not NPOV. It shouldn't need to be 'convincing' because it ought to be stating nothing more than the facts of the case, rather than someone's moral judgement of them.

To clarify, the article doesn't present a coherent account of the incident and fails to present the basic facts in a clear enough manner to allow the reader to use their own judgement. It's a bit of a mess, really.

I made several points above that you seem to have skipped over; they were the important bit, really. I don't find it surprising that an article about an issue this convoluted would be a little hard to follow, but there just doesn't seem to be any logic or forethought that's gone into it at all. It reads like someone's slapped together a bunch of quotes that supported their view and then someone else has edited it to try and make it more neutral, but has only elided, rather than added. Josh

First of all, there's no need to let the indentation slide away. Standard practice here is that a reply-to-reply is in the same height as the original text. Now to the article. You are claiming simultaneously that the article is unclear and POV. These claims should be separated very carefully. If you have ideas how to make the article clearer or more structured we might want to discuss them first, it will be easier and more satisfying.

The reasons I skipped over your eyewitness comments was that it was not clear to me how they relate to improving the article. Please reformulate these comments as suggestions to the article, and then I will be happy to discuss them. Gady 19:17, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

OK, I can agree with you on the indentation issue ;)

I'm suggesting that the lack of clarity is the major issue. There are some minor POV issues, but I think they'd come out with a re-write. (I don't think it's so much a POV issue as simply that it lacks balance.) Whether it's 'the incident known as the DYM' or 'the DYM' is a pretty minor difference - one of tone more than anything else - and a relatively unimportant one. To clarify what I wrote above, I get the impression that someone with a clear POV has had a good stab at doing NPOV but been unable to keep all their personal bias out of it. Much more importantly, though, the article looks like it's been edited so many times that it's lost cohesion. I think the only way to rectify that is to start from scratch - possibly utilising major chunks of the text, but starting with a clean slate.

As far as the 'eyewitness testimonies' go, at the very least it's imperative that those which are clearly not any such thing shouldn't be labelled as such. On top of that, I'm not sure how to reconcile the many contradictions between them - I believe they can't be, but the lack of corroboration between the witness statements is significant.

To address the issue of what should actually be done, I'd suggest that we could use this page to have a go at creating a new article to replace the old one. If we started by listing the basic, indisputable facts, and then listing the various different embelishments to the tale, it might be clearer. Josh 21:33 (GMT) 7 Nov 2004

I would suggest not to use this page for this purpose. Create a new page, for example Deir Yassin massacre/New version, and edit there. People will be able to comment on your work on Talk:Deir Yassin massacre/New version. When you are done, the text can be copied (and even the histories can be merged, if necessary).

I would highly suggest that you make every effort to separate POV and structure issues. This will make your version much more acceptable to people. If your POV issues are, as you say, quite small, you can address them after you address the structure issues.

As for the eyewitnesses, they report what they have seen with their own eyes, hence they are eyewitnesses. The fact that they contain contradictions is obvious: in a typical hit-and-run accident, eyewitnesses will disagree on the color and the make of the car. Such is human nature. On the other hand, there are too many of them. It might be worth while to take only representative eyewitness testimonies, and move the rest to a different page, perhaps "Eyewitness testimonies from the Deir Yassin massacre" or something like it. Gady 22:11, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I get the impression that you're telling me to go ahead and put my money where my mouth is :) I've no problem with that, but I wasn't sure quite what the etiquette was. You seem to be taking an interest in this page and I don't want to step on your toes. Josh 022208112004GMT

Basically yes. The etiquette says that large changes should be discussed before hand. The usual way is actually not to use a temporary page, but because the changes you suggest are currently a little vague, a demonstration would make the discussion much more effective. Gady 04:02, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think Josh's points are well taken, and a temporary page to sort out the problems with this article is an excellent idea. Jayjg 15:57, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Oh dear, I look terrible now. I am still interested in working on this, but I haven't had a lot of time recently. Josh 211226112004GMT

Sid Zion, again

I've exercised the following sentence from the text:

His testimony has lately been challenged by Sid Zion of the Zionist Organisation of America and other right-wing Jewish organisations.

(regarding Meir Pa'il's testimony). Meir Pa'il was a general and one of the most respected Israeli public figures. His personal integrity is beyond doubt. Sid Zion is an American right wing nobody. These people would say any old thing if they thought that it is congruent with their twisted view of what's in Israel's interests. If they care so much about us, why don't they take their noses out of our business? In short, this sentence gives a false impression as if there is some controversy about Meir Pa'il. There is none. Gadykozma 09:56, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

You wanted some evidence...

“Paradoxically, the Jews say about 250 out of 400 village inhabitants [were killed], while Arab survivors say only 110 of 1,000.”38 A study by Bir Zeit University, based on discussions with each family from the village, arrived at a figure of 107 Arab civilians dead and 12 wounded, in addition to 13 "fighters," evidence that the number of dead was smaller than claimed and that the village did have troops based there." Sharif Kanaana and Nihad Zitawi, "Deir Yassin," Monograph No. 4, Destroyed Palestinian Villages Documentation Project, (Bir Zeit: Documentation Center of Bir Zeit University, 1987), p. 55.

Contrary to claims from Arab propagandists at the time and some since, no evidence has ever been produced that any women were raped. On the contrary, every villager ever interviewed has denied these allegations. Like many of the claims, this was a deliberate propaganda ploy, but one that backfired. Hazam Nusseibi, who worked for the Palestine Broadcasting Service in 1948, admitted being told by Hussein Khalidi, a Palestinian Arab leader, to fabricate the atrocity claims. Abu Mahmud, a Deir Yassin resident in 1948 told Khalidi "there was no rape," but Khalidi replied, "We have to say this, so the Arab armies will come to liberate Palestine from the Jews." Nusseibeh told the BBC 50 years later, "This was our biggest mistake. We did not realize how our people would react. As soon as they heard that women had been raped at Deir Yassin, Palestinians fled in terror." 45"Israel and the Arabs: The 50 Year Conflict," BBC.

According to Irgun leader Menachem Begin, the assault was carried out by 100 members of that organization; other authors say it was as many as 132 men from both groups. Begin stated that a small open truck fitted with a loudspeaker was driven to the entrance of the village before the attack and broadcast a warning to civilians to evacuate the area, which many did. Most writers say the warning was never issued because the truck with the loudspeaker rolled into a ditch before it could broadcast the warning. One of the fighters said, the ditch was filled in and the truck continued on to the village. "One of us called out on the loudspeaker in Arabic, telling the inhabitants to put down their weapons and flee. I don't know if they heard, and I know these appeals had no effect."

Contrary to revisionist histories that the town was filled with peaceful innocents, residents and foreign troops opened fire on the attackers. One fighter described his experience:

My unit stormed and passed the first row of houses. I was among the first to enter the village. There were a few other guys with me, each encouraging the other to advance. At the top of the street I saw a man in khaki clothing running ahead. I thought he was one of ours. I ran after him and told him, "advance to that house." Suddenly he turned around, aimed his rifle and shot. He was an Iraqi soldier. I was hit in the foot.

The battle was ferocious and took several hours. The Irgun suffered 41 casualties, including four dead.

Surprisingly, after the “massacre,” the Irgun escorted a representative of the Red Cross through the town and held a press conference. The New York Times' subsequent description of the battle was essentially the same as Begin's. The Times said more than 200 Arabs were killed, 40 captured and 70 women and children were released. No hint of a massacre appeared in the report.

At least some of the women who were killed became targets because of men who tried to disguise themselves as women. The Irgun commander reported, for example, that the attackers "found men dressed as women and therefore they began to shoot at women who did not hasten to go down to the place designated for gathering the prisoners." Another story was told by a member of the Haganah who overheard a group of Arabs from Deir Yassin who said "the Jews found out that Arab warriors had disguised themselves as women. The Jews searched the women too. One of the people being checked realized he had been caught, took out a pistol and shot the Jewish commander. His friends, crazed with anger, shot in all directions and killed the Arabs in the area."

And so on, and so on... Mike23

So you have learned how to do copy and paste. Congratulations! Please come back when you have read the original sources cited by this article and so have the basis to make an informed report on it. Here's just one morsel for you: you copied "Surprisingly, after the “massacre,” the Irgun escorted a representative of the Red Cross through the town and held a press conference." Perhaps if you knew that the Red Cross representative wrote "All I could think of was the SS troops I had seen in Athens" you would start to realise that there is a little more to the story than you realise. --Zero 11:52, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

How many were killed?

The article header says At least 107 Palestinian civilians were killed. Some sources report many more deaths, but their accuracy has been disputed. The body of the article has a long discussion of death numbers, which includes the statement It can now be said with certainty that the death toll did not exceed 120. These statements need to be reconciled. Jayjg 17:02, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

120 is larger than 107 (take my word for it, I'm a mathematician). But seriously, I don't see here any contradiction. The article goes into great length to dispute these other sources so it can finally make that certain claim. Gadykozma 17:23, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Well, if it fully refutes that, then the summary claim should list the conclusion of the debate, not the start of it. Also, the number given in Israeli massacres article (sorry, the actual name escapes me at the moment) is 100-110. These should all be reconciled; I propose the number be given as 107-120 in all three places. Jayjg 17:29, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

In this I agree with Jagj, the number most commonly accepted is around 107-120, we will never know for sure, it may also have been a bit higher, but survivers testimonies, and the evidence show the number in that range somewhere (not all the bodies were recovered). The exhaustive Birzeit study showed that. The numbers were exagerated by both sides, but the flight of refugees because of the Deir Yassin story is very real. Even Begin, the former terrorist, admitted it was worth a division or more I believe.

As far as I know I do not think there were any rapes, no real accounts, it may have been covered up or been hushed up due to shame, but unlikely? Again who knows? A small number of children and adults survived the attacks.

We do know for sure there was quite a bit of widespread looting, and theft of jewellery from dead bodies (cutting rings off, etc.) It is eneough the homes became the property of new Jewish immigrants. The ground was still warm Joseph 21:22, Sep 19, 2004 (UTC)

NPOV tag

(the following paragraph was posted as a reply to the one above, but it really started a new discussion so I retrospectively added a headline and reduced the indentation. Gady 16:13, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC))

So what are the source for 120 deaths? And why should we trust the research of Palestinian university its certainly partisan source. So i am adding back the NPOV. Also how we know they were all civillians and there was no armed man inside the village?

The research conducted by the university was well documented. I don't know where to get it, but I believe the information is all available. The university found out there were much less victims than originally thought, even though for propaganda purposes it would of course be better if there were more. Also 1987 was a different time, much less tense than today.

In short, for the purpose of the NPOV-ity of the article, what is important is to represent all opinions fairly. There is a small minority that claims that no massacre ever existed — their views are described under Deir Yassin massacre#Modern debate. Are you claiming that the article does not describe their opinions in a fair way? Or that there is another group which specifically rejects only the university study — presumably in this case they would need to accept previous numbers which were much higher?

Finally, just to let you know, the {{NPOV}} tag should be put on the article only if a reasonable attempt to solve the dispute on the talk page failed. Gadykozma 21:47, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

There was no reply so I removed it. Gadykozma 16:47, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

First of all this article based on research conducted by one of sides in this incident so how can we trust that research?

Second Academic research is not ultimate truth. For example there is Academic researches that denies holocaust it doesn't make them true

Third provide link to this research. So we can at least check it out.

I am restoring the NPOV

I removed the quote you added because it already appeared in the article, several sections above, with attribution. As for the {{NPOV}} tag, please be more responsive in the future. You can't slap a tag that says there is a dispute and then disappear for two weeks. As for the research of the university, I have no clue, but Benny Moris' book should be in any reasonable academic library and would definitely contain a reference. Gadykozma 17:42, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I give up

Ok, let it be full of lies and misinformation, you will only hurt yourselves.

Everyone with sense, reason, and ther ability to research knows the truth. It is a shame this view has been taken, and it is akin to saying the Holocaust did not happen. I suppose those Arab homes the Jewish people live in in Deir Yassin were not Arab either, is that so too!

In any case, as others much wiser have said, it is a waste of time. Fill the content of the Wikipedia with non-sensical meanings, and vain attempts to hide facts, They will come out one day, when they do a deep shame should fill us all for all the innocent lives lost.

I feel sorry for the maligned truth on these pages. I guess if that is what the pro-Zionist supporters were after by blocking every entry I make then you got your wish. What a shame. There is no NPOV view or truth on any of these pages dealing with the Arab/Israeli conflict, and especially in respect to Palestinians Joseph 00:15, Sep 21, 2004 (UTC)

Irgun, Etzel IZL

Let's decide on one of them and standardize the article. I prefer (in this order) IZL, Etzel, Irgun. What do other people prefer? Gadykozma 13:40, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Irgun is the most commonly used name in English, and this is English Wikipedia... Jayjg 17:44, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

OK, I changed it to Irgun in the few relevant places. Gadykozma 01:44, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Question of Translation or Meaning

Ok, the truck with the mortar in the story near the end of the battle that comes from the Haganah; it says it fires "tree shoots". Is this a reference to "tree bursts"? The article seems to be talking about setting the mortars to explode above the building to kill snipers--this is best termed an "air burst".

Unfortunately, it seems the guy who wrote this, BL, has left Wikipedia on May. Therefore the only way to verify is to check the book referred to. My guess is that it should be "three shots"... Gadykozma 00:47, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I don't think that the article is pro-zionist. I just came here to read more or less what happened. I don't expect casualty figures or every report drawn from one book to be literally accurate. Just as you said, if you are too critical of the 'perspective' of wiki authors then it will descend into the same kind of political speech and bland, noncommital recitations that is popular in the American media.

Message sent to me

A wikipedian sent this message to me after I made a comment on the votes for deletion page, in everyone's interest I have copied it here:-

See http://www.etzel.org.il/english/ac17.htm, http://www.zoa.org/pubs/DeirYassin.htm, http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/deir_yassin.html, http://www.freeman.org/m_online/may98/bedein.htm, http://www.theraphi.com/da/april/18.html and of course stage five in http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/deir_yassin.html. While the loss of non-combatants is regrettable in any war, the fact that the Arabs deliberately hid among civilians, opened fire from within civilian crowds and pretended to be dead and then ambushed Irgun solders (foreshadowing present day events) places the blame for the non-combatant casualites squarely on Arab fighters, not the Irgun. Indeed, a truck with a loudspeaker was deployed to warn Arab civilians of the coming attack (thereby forgoing the advantage of surprise). Irgun fighers were given strict orders to not harm the elderly, woman and children, and took any Arab who surrended prisoner, as opposed to the Arabs who would execute anyone who surrendered to their forces. Arab eyewitnessess claim that there was no massacre, and that the majority of Arab non-combantants were serving in a support role to the Arab forces, and thereby legimate targets. Many Arabs openly admit that the so-called "Deir Yassing" massacre was used as a tool to support invading Arab armies, and not represenation of true fact. I sincerely hope that you will look deeper into this issue, and come to realize that in every war their are innoccents harmed, but in this case everything was done that could reasonably minimize this unforunate occurrence.

Regards,

MSTCrow 15:32, May 20, 2005 (UTC)

Too long

This page can be reduced to probably four paragraphs like a normal encyclopedia entry. It is longer than the page on the Taiping Rebellion, China's civil war that killed 20 million people! The minute details are for further study elsewhere. An entry should contain: 1) who what when where, 2) significance of massacre/atrocity reports in the time period, 3) fact that most conventional history reports event as a massacre, 4) that a few challenge it, alleging certain things (x,y,z), 5) it remains subject of factual and political debate. The end. The details can be hashed out numerous places and are.

-- Anon, but knowledgable on subject

It has been stated that the opening paragraphs are really all one needs for the article; I wonder how others feel. Jayjg ^(talk) 16:00, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I totally disagree. This proves that the Taiping Rebellion article is too short, not that this article is too long. One of Wikipedia's great strengths is its ability to treat obscure topics in detail; its weakness, in fact, tends to be the articles on broader topics, which fit less easily into any one person's expertise. - Mustafaa 16:43, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well, it's in desperate need of cleanup, particularly the footnotes which are formatted in the most obnoxious way imaginable. Jayjg ^(talk) 16:52, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The non-footnotes, you mean! I actually find them kind of convenient, but I agree that a standard footnote layout would be more aesthetically pleasing, if marginally harder to follow. - Mustafaa 17:02, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There does not need to be a Deir Yassin article AND a Deir Yassin Massacre article separately. At least the opening paragraph should say why the village is of interest, not the details of its location. The opening can give a summary of the reason for interest - a famous massacre reproted there -- and the basics, and report that the massacre allegation is challenged in some circles (IMO dishonestly and ridiclously but that need not be added). The rest of the article can be detailed by persons who want to write, amend, and reamend the massacre debate and details.

-- Anon but familiar

And someone keeps eradicating the Hebrew transliteration, even though it common appears (try Google) and was used and is used in Hebrew language literature and records on the subject and in translations of them. Stop it. What the village name is today does not mean there is no Hebrew transliteration of the former name.

The village had no Hebrew name, this transliteration is of a mispronunciation common among Hebrew speakers. This would be like putting "Betah Tiqoua" as a transliteration of Petah-Tikva.--Doron 06:40, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It is written in Hebrew in books and literature at the time and commonly transliterated that way -- see Begin's memoirs, do a google search. If you want to add a note to that effect, do it. The fact is that researching Deir Yassin is aided by noting that it often appears transliterated from the Hebrew as Dir Yassin. It may be a mistake, it doesnt matter, that's how it appears, and often odes in the literature on Deir Yassin; an encyclopedia aids researchers to find thngs, many things are listed as Dir Yassin, including a former Israeli punk rock band. The name Jonah for example is transliterated from Hebrew many ways but also via Greek as Jonas and that fact should be noted, if one is researching Bible references, one should note the common way it appears and in older English Bibles (particularly Catholic ones)and refrences to it you will find "JOnas". Deir Yassin DOES have a commonly appearing Hebrew transliterated name "Dir Yassin" (Google it, darn it!) in the same way there is a bad English transliteration "Deir Yassin" rather than the more accurate "Dayr Yasin". Given that much primary and secondary literature is in Hebrew and or transliterated from it, it should be noted. TO say the town doesn't have a Hebrew name is like saying Moscow doesnt have an English name. Yes, it does: Moscow. It is transliterated Moskva and is such in Russian. But in English it's Moscow. In Hebrww, an important language for researching Deir Yassin it appears often as Dir Yassin, even if mispronounced it is what it is.

Stop changing it.

-- Anon, but familiar

For handling alternative spellings, wikipedia uses redirects, so what you should have done is create redirects (such as [1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dir_Yassin&redirect=no) and [2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dir_Yassin_massacre&redirect=no)). Moscow and Deir Yassin are English names, "Dir Yassin" is a misspelling by the translator (I don't suppose the Hebrew original was written with vowels?).--Doron 12:28, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

______________ The redirects are useful, but does not give a useful explanation for the origin of the commonly appearing Dir Yassin. Mistakes in transliteration is how MOST foreign terms get popularized. Even mistransliterations, eg Jehovah is a mistransliteration of Yahweh consonants and later Adonai vowels, Paris is not Pah RISS but Pah reeee, but we pronounce as we read it. It is important to note the origin of Dir Yassin as anyone researching it in a book or online should look for that spelling; this tells why.

Deir Yassin is not an English name, it is a transliteration (and a poor one) from Arabic but it is the standard because it was the official British one. Dir Yassin is the standard roman transliteration from Hebrew. It should be noted as such. And not merely redirected.

I'm fine with your last edit.--Doron 23:59, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)