Talk:Cyrillic alphabet
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Older discussion
It was my impression that a few of the characters of Cyrillic were taken from the Hebrew alphabet, particularly sh and shch (which resemble the Hebrew shin) and possibly ts (which resembles tzadeh rather more loosely). Is there any substance to this? --Fubar Obfusco
- I've heard the claim before, and it sounds plausible enough, but I haven't come across it in a reputable source yet. I'll check... --Brion
If this checks out, it'll originally apply to the Glagolitic alphabet, so check there. -- Toby Bartels 03:34 20 May 2003 (UTC)
Would it be possible to have, say, a gif/png image of the Cyrillic alphabet for the benefit of people whose browsers don't show up the letters properly? Magnus 12:16 Apr 24, 2003 (UTC)
I'll work on this. In the meantime, nobody else should hesitate to work on this, because when I do it, it'll be in one fell swoop. -- Toby 08:06 May 14, 2003 (UTC)
What does "Glagolitic" mean? -- Zoe
From the Catholic Encyclopedia:
- Glagolitic
- (Or GLAGOLITSA; Slavonic glagol, a word; glagolati, to speak).
- An ancient alphabet of the Slavic languages, also called in Russian bukvitsa. The ancient Slavonic when reduced to writing seems to have been originally written with a kind of runic letters, which, when formed into a regular alphabet, were called the Glagolitic, that is the signs which spoke. St. Cyril, who, together with his brother St. Methodius, translated the Greek liturgy into Slavonic when he converted the Bulgarians and Moravians, invented the form of letters derived from the Greek alphabet with which the church Slavonic is usually written. This is known as the Cyrillic alphabet or Kirillitsa. -- Derek Ross
- Can someone incorporate that into the article? -- Zoe
- Why don't I incorporate it into Glagolitic alphabet? -- Toby 08:06 May 14, 2003 (UTC)
Can someone more knowledgeable add a reference to the Mongolian alphabet, which is also Cyrillic?
Also, a description of Soviet orthography reforms would be interesting (I believe two letters were eliminated). Yaronf 22:30 May 5, 2003 (UTC)
- There's a bit about this in the table at Russian alphabet —Michael Z. 17:11, 2004 Sep 22 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure that the Mongolian alphabet is not based on Cyrillic, but is rather descended from one of the cursive Aramaic scripts. If you know Arabic, you can recognize quite a few Mongolian characters if you turn the page on its side. ACW 17:48, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Whoops, my apologies, Yaronf. I should have read the Mongolian article before I spoke. Yes, one of the alphabets used to write Mongolian is Cyrillic. I think the system most commonly called "the Mongolian alphabet" is the vertical Sogdian-derived script, though. Nevertheless, as Yaronf says, Mongolian should be listed among the languages that use Cyrillic. ACW 17:57, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The following material is from the now deleted Learning the Cyrillic alphabet. Please salvage anything that needs to be
Here is a way to learn the Russian Cyrillic alphabet classifying the letters into groups:
5 letters look and sound like English:
A K M O T
There are 9 letters that look like English, but are NOT pronounced like English:
B=V. E=YE. N(backwards)=I. H=N. P=R. C=S. Y=U. X=H. R(backwards)=YA.
These letters look different from any letter in English:
- Cyrillic B looks somewhat like a 6
- Cyrillic G looks like flipped L
- Cyrillic D looks like a box
- Cyrillic ZH looks like a K to the right of its mirror image
- Cyrillic Z looks like a 3
- Cyrillic L looks like a box without the bottom
- Cyrillic P looks like a hat
- Cyrillic F looks like a circle divided by a vertical line
- Cyrillic TS looks like square U
- Cyrillic CH looks like upside down lowercase h
- Cyrililc SH looks like square W
- Cyrillic SHCH looks like square W with tail
- Cyrillic E looks like backwards C with horizontal line
- Cyrillic YU looks like 10
There are 4 letters that seem unusual, which are:
- Short I = forms diphthongs, which are like ai in aisle, ei in vein, and oi in oil.
- Hard sign = Very rare
- Hard I = a sound with no equivalent in English
- Soft sign = Keeps preceding consonant soft
End dumped material
Letter names
Table of Cyrillic letters—Are these transliterated Russian names of the letters? They don't seem to be transliterated using either IPA or Wikipedia's adhoc system (or am I misinterpreting them? I don't speak Russian). Is the name "Ghe" pronounced [ç], [ɣɛ], [xɛ], or [ɦɛ]?
As used in ... Russian—This is slightly different from the table at Russian alphabet (Names: Ha ≠ /xa/, Shta ≠ /S'a/, Yeri ≠ /1:/;E ≠ /E oborotnoje/. SAMPA: /jE/ ≠ /je/, and both IPA and SAMPA palatalization symbols are mixed in: /j/ and /'/).
I realize there are differences in dialects and accents, but the same information should be presented consistently, with exceptions noted. And I guess this can't be fully resolved until each language alphabet has its own page developed, as noted above.
Maybe the section describing other alphabets relative to Russian should be a separate article. As a (non-Russian-) Ukrainian-speaker, I find it confusing at best. Ye is pronounced /E/ and is called "E"—I would say [jɛ] is represented by the letter Є, called "Ye". Maybe it would make more sense if Cyrillic was referred to as a writing system or script, whose symbols are used to represent sounds in the various languages' alphabets
I don't want to sound like a complainer. I'd gladly do as much of this as I can, but I don't know Russian so I don't want to mess it up. I'm working on a stub for Ukrainian alphabet, and I'd be glad to rewrite some of this with specific direction.
—Michael Z. 16:00, 2004 Sep 11 (UTC)
- (1) Russian Ghe is pronounced [ɡɛ] in standard pronunciation and [ɣɛ] in Southern dialects. (2) I, too, think that there should be separate pages for Russian, Ukrainian etc alphabets (it is already done so in Russian wikipedia). — Monedula 18:20, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- Thanks, Monedula. Is "Ghe" just a different transliteration, or is "Ge" pronounced differently (are they ге, гэ, гъе)? In the meantime, I've posted Ukrainian alphabet. —Michael Z. 15:41, 2004 Sep 22 (UTC)
- Could you link to the letters in that article? Nikola 03:48, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- I will eventually, Nikola. I'm doing some research and preparing relevant material for this article too. Work in progress at User:Mzajac/cyrillic.
- Could you link to the letters in that article? Nikola 03:48, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- Is "Ghe" just a different transliteration, or is "Ge" pronounced differently? — In the Russian context, it is just a different transliteration. — Monedula 17:23, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- Should I merge both Ge and Ghe under "Ge", since they have the same name and pronunciation in the respective languages? It might be clearest to also redirect Ukrainian "He" to this page, and explain the history and current usage in the respective languages in one place.
- Is "Ghe" just a different transliteration, or is "Ge" pronounced differently? — In the Russian context, it is just a different transliteration. — Monedula 17:23, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Transliteration of Russian
- Transliteration can be done in many different ways; the most commonly used method of transliteration from Russian to English is presented here
The method presented in the Russian table seems to be a mix of three or four standards, and is different from Wikipedia's Transliteration of Russian into English. For reference, here is a table of romanization standards for Russian: Russian.pdf (http://ee.www.ee/transliteration/pdf/Russian.pdf)
Is there any justification for the statement that it is most common? Can anyone think of a reason not to remove this column from the table? —Michael Z. 12:07, 2004 Sep 22 (UTC)
- Since there haven't been any objections here, I'll do so. —Michael Z. 03:52, 2004 Oct 14 (UTC)
- Done. Replaced this with more general notes and links on romanization. —Michael Z. 04:43, 2004 Oct 14 (UTC)
Capital and small letters
Here's a minor point, but I'm just curious. It seems to me that the corresponding opposites describing letter case are:
majuscule minuscule uppercase lowercase capital small
Does traditional Cyrillic typography use Gutenberg's system of upper and lower type cases for the big and small letters? Do majuscule and miniscule properly apply to the Cyrillic alphabet, or are these terms specifically rooted in Latin typography, like "uncial" and "Carolingian"? Anyone know? —Michael Z. 16:08, 2004 Oct 23 (UTC)
- The original Cyrillic script closely followed the Greek uncial writing of 9th-11th centuries. However, Peter the Great has reformed the Russian writing and typography at the beginning of the 18th century, making them very similar to the Western ones. So in today's Cyrillic and Latin scripts the notions of majuscule/minuscule, uppercase/lowercase and capital/small are identical. — Monedula 17:05, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- I worked as a professional typographer during the ’70s and ’80s, and we used the following corresponding opposites to describe letter case:
uppercase lowercase capital lowercase majuscule minuscule big small
- In practice, however, it is virtually always “uppercase” or “capital” versus “lowercase.” We did not use the words “big” or “small” to refer to letter case at all, but only to type size. --Stephen 08:38, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Thank you. Does anyone know of any accessible references about the history of Cyrillic typography (preferably in English)? All I've ever seen is the little bit in Bringhurst's The Elements of Typographic Style. —Michael Z. 18:15, 2004 Oct 24 (UTC)
Direction
[some text moved down from above]
Do you think that it would be good if contents of the "As used in various languages" section would be split and moved into articles about Russian alphabet, Bulgarian alphabet, Macedonian alphabet etc. as is the case with Latin alphabet (see Alphabets derived from the Latin)? Then this article could concentrate more on the history of Cyrillic alphabet and similar things. Nikola 07:41, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- This is a very good idea, however I'd rather be talking not about splitting, rather about copying/moving to the (missing) articles on individual alphabets.
- The individual articles may go in greater details, while this article must keep a reasonable amount of comparative information, which I find useful very often. Mikkalai 18:19, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I've counted 19 other non-slavic Cyrillic alphabets that we could build tables for, with information that's already on Wikipedia. Before we add too many, perhaps we should determine a few more details of our direction. I can think of a few scenarios. Feel free to add more ideas or details to the list.
Let's avoid duplication as much as possible. The several Russian alphabet tables on Wikipedia already disagree in a few details; I'd hate to see us trying to maintain 20 or more out-of-sync versions.
—Michael Z. 20:28, 2004 Oct 24 (UTC)
Wikiproject
Should we start a Wikiproject to organize all of the Cyrillic alphabet articles?
Scenarios
- Comparative info remains
- Cyrillic alphabet stays essentially the same. We keep adding small alphabet tables and comparative info for each one.
- Each national language or alphabet page has a vertical table of letters, names, and pronunciation.
- Minimal tables only
- Cyrillic alphabet retains only small alphabet tables for each language.
- Comparative info is moved to a new article, Cyrillic alphabets compared.
- Each national language or alphabet page has a vertical table of letters, names, and pronunciation.
Comparative information
Currently, the alphabets are all compared to the Russian. This seems to be sensible for most of the non-Slavic alphabets which are adapted from the Russian. But it can get confusing when dealing with some of the others.
E.g., I know Ukrainian but not Russian, so reading about the Macedonian alphabet becomes very convoluted: Macedonian is "like Serbian, except...", which is "like Russian, except...", then I have to construct my own mental image of "Russian is like Ukrainian, except...".
Can we establish more language-neutral base-line description of most or all of the letters? Perhaps all it would take is expanding the Russian alphabet table to include the other letters, noting national exceptions therein. For Russian, we can point to Russian alphabet, as we would with any other.
Or would the Bulgarian or Old Church Slavonic alphabet be a better base-line, for historic reasons? Differences and exceptions could be noted with references to historic evolution of the alphabets. Cladistics instead of comparative anatomy?
The comparative info as currently written need not be lost; it could be moved to a new article Cyrillic alphabets compared to Russian.
Letter articles
I've built a navigation box that's more compact than the current Template:Cyrillic alphabet. Tool-tip titles act as labels. Letters are sorted according to Unicode collation chart order (including the pending proposal to put Dze before Ze).
I think this currently has all of the letters used for Slavic languages (anything missing?). Should we extend it to include all of the others? Then it becomes another kettle of fish.
Is this navbox sufficient? How can it be improved?
Update: I've created a template for this, and a set of images of the letters, showing baseline, x-height, and ascent. —Michael Z. 21:14, 2004 Nov 5 (UTC)
The template would be inserted with code like:
{{Template:Cyrillic alphabet navbox|
Heading=Cyrillic letter A|
Image=Image:Cyrillic letter A.png
}}
- I like the way it looks, but am worried that someone who knows only about letter names won't be able to navigate such a table. Nikola 00:32, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- Just saw your older comments, N. I'm hoping that the pop-up tool tips are good enough, and each article is a click away. I'm most worried that the Unicode letters won't show up in some browsers. Your comment reminded me to see what it looks like in Lynx. Amazing, and almost useful:
Cyrillic letter A
Image:Cyrillic letter A.png
Cyrillic alphabet
A B V G G3 D D%
G% E IO IE ZH DS Z
I II YI J J% K L
LJ M N NJ O P R
S T Ts KJ U V% F
H C CH DZ SH SCH "
Y ' `E YU YA
Archaic letters
C3 Ѹ Ѡ Ѿ Ѻ Y3 IIA
Ѥ Ѧ O3 Ѩ Ѭ Ѯ Ѱ
F3 V3 Ѷ
Sample letters: large Unicode letters (e.g. A), or an image (e.g. Yery)? An image could also show the baseline and x-height, to distinguish ascenders & descenders.
- Large letters untill we have images. Baseline and height are important, but I somehow don't like the way it looks (reminds me on school perhaps ;). Nikola 00:32, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- It is schoolish looking, isn't it? I find it helpful when seeing unfamiliar letter forms in isolation. Without a diagram, I'd have no idea that Koppa (Cyrillic) has a descender. —Michael Z. 23:35, 2004 Nov 25 (UTC)
What is included in the sample letters?
- serif letters
- sans-serif letters
- in my opinion, this doesn't really demonstrate much about the letter; at best it provides a case study of the differences between serif and sans font styles. —Michael Z.
- handwritten
- can someone provide scans or a good font? A scanned penmanship lesson would be excellent.
- Old Church Slavonic manuscript style
- maybe adding an alphabet table and scanned sample manuscript to Old Church Slavonic is more appropriate
- Glagolitic equivalent
- the table at Glagolitic alphabet already has this information
- IMO, that would be too crammed. I thought about this and think that it could be solved by having a typography section, in which each of these variants could be included, as well as other info about typographical variants. Nikola 00:32, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
What other standard content should be present in each letter article?
- Introduction
- Name(s)
- Present in which alphabets
- Pronunciation
- Latin equivalent/transliteration
- Should this be tables, or text, or tables where needed and text where possible? Nikola 00:32, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- Related/similar letters
- Historical development
- Usage in computing
- Code points
- Code pages
- Unicode
- HTML entities
- Code points
Alphabet articles
Do we need a Cyrillic alphabets navbox, or is it sufficient to point to Cyrillic alphabet?
Standardized formats? Please see the table of letters and Unicode table in Ukrainian alphabet.
Content
- Introduction
- Native name
- Used in which languages, regions, periods
- Table of letters, names, pronunciation
- Punctuation, diacritics, quotation marks
- History
- Usage in computing
Kalmyk Mongolian
Stephen, the Kalmyk alphabet seemed different enough to warrant its own table, so I added it according to your description.
Are your pronunciation keys using IPA? Does "dž" indicate a short "z", or a Dzh sound /ʤ/? Should "ye" and "yu" be /je/ and /ju/?
Unicode collation charts (http://www.unicode.org/charts/collation/) place Һ after Х, but from your notes I assumed it follows Г in the Kalmyk alphabet. Please correct, or let me know what to change.
Are the letters "not employed" at all, or only for loan words? If the latter, here's a table you can cut 'n' paste:
| А а | Ә ә | Б б | В в | Г г | Һ һ | Д д | Е е | Ё ё | Ж ж | Җ җ |
| З з | И и | Й й | К к | Л л | М м | Н н | Ң ң | О о | Ө ө | П п |
| Р р | С с | Т т | У у | Ү ү | Ф ф | Х х | Ц ц | Ч ч | Ш ш | Щ щ |
| Ъ ъ | Ы ы | Ь ь | Э э | Ю ю | Я я |
—Michael Z. 03:12, 2004 Oct 26 (UTC)
- Yes, I think it's a good idea, Michael.
- My pronunciation keys were informal and not IPA. Khalkha Ж = /ʤ/, Е = /jɛ/, and Ю = /ju/ or /jy/.
- The letter Һһ does follow Х in Buryat, where it is pronounced /h/; but in Kalmyk, it follows Г and is pronounced /γ/.
- All the Cyrillic-based scripts use all the Russian letters for writing Russian words, but they vary in which nonnative letters they incorporate into their formal alphabets. Even though neither Khalkha nor Buryat uses the letter Кк in native words, Khalkha includes Кк in its alphabet, whereas Buryat does not.
- I will make these changes in the Cyrillic page. --Stephen 12:56, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Thanks, Stephen; that looks great. I appreciate how much work it can be to document this stuff. Michael Z.
Evolution and adaptation
Unlike the Latin alphabet, which is usually adapted to different languages using additions to existing letters such as accents, umlauts, tildes and cedillas, the Cyrillic alphabet is usually adapted by the creation of entirely new letter shapes. In some alphabets, invented in 19th century, such as Mari and Chuvash, umlauts and braves also was used.
Is this a good summary? There seem to be so many exceptions.
The Latin alphabet also added many ligatures (e.g., Æ, Œ, SS → ß), and adopted letters from at least Greek (Y, Z), Irish (Ȝ), and Runic (Þ and Ƿ). Slavic and non-Slavic Cyrillic alphabets use accents or additions to glyphs (Ukrainian Ґ, Latin Ð). In both, many diacritics are evolved from additional letters or ligatures (Æ → Ä, AO → Å, Œ → Ö → Ø, UU → W, Ukrainian apostrof comes from a little Yerok, I think). —Michael Z.
Ѐ and Ѝ
Which languages use Cyrillic E-grave and I-grave? These are listed in the navbox with Slavic characters, but I can't find any references to their use. —Michael Z. 14:42, 2004 Nov 15 (UTC)
- Bulgarian uses i-grave for a dative form of "she" (Ѝ ѝ), to distinguish it from "and" (И и). But that's the only case I've seen of a modern use of Cyrillic accent grave. — Stephen 12:25, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- The Unicode standard says it is Macedonian. — Monedula 18:24, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- No, Macedonian uses Г grave and К grave. Nikola 00:25, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- Macedonian uses Г and К acute. But back on topic, the only instances of Ѐ and Ѝ that I've seen is in Church Slavonic. Typhlosion 02:45, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Iotation
OK, I bit and made article on iotation. Edits are welcome :) Nikola 09:52, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Full Alphabetical Order
If one was to put all the cyrillic letters in alphabetical order, what order would they go in? For example, Ђ and Ѓ both come between Д and Е, but in different languages. So which would come first?
Typhlosion 02:42, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- Since each of those letters occupies the same position within its alphabet, neither comes before the other. Another problem is that the same letter in one alphabet is in a different position in another alphabet...for instance, Russian and Ukrainian Ь: the last 4 letters in the Russian alphabet are Ь,Э,Ю,Я, while in Ukrainian they are Щ,Ю,Я,Ь. Another consideration is that there are some 50 languages that use the Cyrillic alphabet, and among all those languages there are more letters between Д and Е than just the two you've named.
- But if you really had to write all the different Cyrillic letters down together, then I suppose that Ѓ should precede Ђ (since Г comes before Д). I think I might write them in this order:
- А,Ә,Б,В,Г,Ґ,Ғ,Гу,Гъ,Гъу,Гь,ГІ,Ҕ,Ҕь,Д,Дә,Дж,Дз,Ѓ,Ђ,Џь,Е...
- — Stephen 13:29, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- The Unicode Consortium has created a unified alphabetical order, described in the Unicode collation charts (http://www.unicode.org/charts/collation/) (click "Cyrillic"). I think this is considered a good compromise when to use when sorting mixed language text, but not necessarily correct for any one language (e.g., the Russian/Ukrainian example above).
- Template:Cyrillic alphabet navbox arranges the letters used in Slavic languages in Unicode order, but keeps the archaic letters in a separate list. Any suggestions on how to add the non-slavic languages to the navbox? —Michael Z. 18:16, 2004 Nov 29 (UTC)
- I think you could just tack the non-Slavic characters on at the end of what you already have in the Navbox. Something like this:
- ... Ъ Ы Ь Э Ю Я
- Ӑ Ӓ Ӕ Ғ Гу Гъ Гъу Гь ГӀ Ҕ Ҕь Дә Дж Дз Џь Ӗ Ә Ӛ Ҽ Ҿ Җ Ӂ Ӝ Жь Жә Ҙ Ӟ Ӡ Ӡә Ѝ Ӣ Ӥ Қ Ҝ Ҟ Ҡ Ӄ Кь Қь Ҟь Ку КӀ КӀу Къ Къу Кхъ Кхъу Лъ ЛӀ Ң Ҥ Ӈ Ӧ Ө Ӫ Ҩ Ҧ ПӀ Ҫ Ҭ Тә Ҭә ТӀ Ү Ұ Ӯ Ӱ Ӳ ФӀ Ҳ Хь Ҳә Ху Хъ Хъу ХӀ Ҵ Цә ЦӀ Ҷ Ҹ Ӌ Ӵ ЧӀ Шь Шә ЩӀ Ӹ Һ Ӏ Ӏу ’
- — Stephen 15:00, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- Should they be in a separate section the way archaic letters are? But I don't want to create the appearance of segregating anyone.
- Is your list here comprehensive, Stephen? Are these all considered separate letters, or are some repeated letters with an added diacritic? Do we know their names (I guess Unicode names are a start)?
- Maybe it doesn't make sense to create about 90 new letter substubs which will remain tiny (half the existing letter articles are still stubs). We could expand the list of alphabets, start moving them out into the language articles or create more alphabet stubs. (Almost?) all of the letters are compounds, ligatures, and modifications of Slavic or Latin letters, and should be mentioned in those letters' articles anyway.
- —Michael Z. 17:40, 2004 Dec 3 (UTC)"'
- It's a fairly comprehensive list, but I think there are probably a few other letters that exist besides these. For instance, it's possible that there are some languages that consider umlaut digraphs such as аь, оь, уь (for ä, ö, ˙) to be separate letters of the alphabet. I listed all the letters that I could think of, though...they all are formal letters in some alphabet or other. For example, ’ (апостроф) is the last letter of the Azeri Cyrillic alphabet.
- And yes, each of them has a name. A lot of them are Kabardian...for example, Гъу is a Kabardian letter named "ʁʷə" (ghwuh). Кхъу is a Kabardian letter named "qʷə" (qwuh). ЩӀ is another Kabardian letter, named "ɕʔə" (sj’uh). Ӏу is the tail-end of the Kabardian alphabet, and that letter is called "ʔʷə" (’wuh). The preceding letter, by the way, common in the Caucasian languages, is Ӏ (not the same as Ukrainian І), and Ӏ is named "ʔə" (’uh).
- Yes, I think more alphabets is the answer.
- — --Stephen 13:10, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Acute accent / stress mark
The article has a tiny note about how to use the acute accent with Cyrllic in Unicode, but it does not explain that the reason for this is to indicate the stressed syllable.
Also, many fonts which include Cyrillic do not work well with the combining acute. Does anybody know Unicode's reasons for not including precomposed forms? I'd also like to know some fonts besides Arial Unicode MS and Code2000 which do support the combining acute with Cyrillic. Even better would be fonts which support archaic letters and also the acute. I'm also thinking of creating a template similar to {{IPA}} and {{Unicode}}. This is particularly needed for our sister project, Wiktionary but would also be useful here.
Please contribute any thoughts. — Hippietrail 14:58, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
- Lucida Grande, which comes with Mac OS X, displays all the old Cyrillic characters and supports combining acutes. Unfortunately, it only has Roman and bold fonts—no italic.
- You mostly don't have to worry about a template for the Mac, because Safari/Mac OS is pretty smart about automatically choosing the a valid font for each character on the page (as is Mozilla on all platforms). For this reason, Template:Unicode hides its font specification from all browsers except MSIE/Windows. —Michael Z. 2005-05-14 21:44 Z