Talk:Culture of New Zealand
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I have removed the entire section on New Zealand cultural cringe. It is a real concept, and something should be written on it, but, for instance, there is not and has never been any desperation to see sheep shearing recognized as a sport or art from, and adulation is clearly not poured upon "any visiting celebrity". The section I removed obviously had a slightly comedic tone, but was also essentially fictional and misleading. There are arguably other parts to this article that have the same problems, and certainly parts of it are written in very vague, general terms, but I will leave it to someone else to either improve or remove such problems.
A few notes on this article:
Could someone explain what the song by The Knobz is about, or maybe write an article about it? I can kind of guess what the song was about and why it is relevant, but the article doesn't explain.
- I'm not sure how much of the song can be quoted under copyright rules. The memorable part goes something like "I could buzz around like a beehive boy, but I'd like to see you do my job, up front with the Knobz" where beehive boy means politician.
I have removed:
- Perhaps one of the less obvious New Zealand cultural attitudes is the
- notion that one should be judged by ones abilities and works rather than :ones status or class. Although a class structure does exist in New :Zealand society, there is often a strong reaction, such as the Tall Poppy :Syndrome, if high class status is openly flaunted in public. Some :observers claim that New Zealanders are in denial about their culture,
- others say that this is merely introspection and consideration for others.
- What is "Tall Poppy Syndrome"?
- Anyone who stands out from (or above) the crowd is *cut down to size*
- If New Zealand has eliminated classism, I will be both astonished and elated, and I will move there immediately. The whole paragraph, especially the first sentence, suffers from an abundance of vagueness.
"Kiwi" is always capitalized in the section on the word (which maybe deserves it's own article distinct from the bird?). I hesitate to change it because I don't know if New Zealanders always or sometimes capitalize it.
- We are Kiwis, the national symbol is the kiwi
I have also removed:
- With necessity often being the mother of invention and New Zealanders :often being faced with having to make do with what was available, they
- have often produced unique solutions to common everyday problems. :Many of these inventions are unique to New Zealand and are now known :as Kiwiana.
- This isn't encyclopedic and is so vague it probably applies to any culture throughout the world.
Tokerboy 03:18 Dec 30, 2002 (UTC)
A general copyedit and polish. I've tried not to change the sense of the article (I'm Australian and not qualified to write about NZ culture.) Aside from minor things, I replaced
- Small enclaves of these early immigrant cultures do exist, though these groups tend to maintain the unique aspects of their immigrant heritage over and above the dominant British colonial culture and have had little impact on it.
with
- Small enclaves of these early immigrant cultures remain as islands of unique heritage in a sea of British colonial culture.
Please change back if this isn't the original meaning. Also replaced:
- This has lead to a friendly, but competitive, cultural rivalry. Though in the face of adversity members of both cultures act co-operatively, despite this rivalry. Part of this rivalry may be due to Australia originally being a penal colony, while New Zealand was settled voluntarily by colonists who paid for their own passage
with a different para, which (I think) speaks for itself. On the voluntary settlement/penal colony matter, I question this. I'm not sure of the exact figure, but at a guess, convicts made up maybe 5% of Australia's immigrants, probably less. The cultural significance of the convict heritage, of course, is not a matter of mere percentages. Still, I think too much is often made of it. Now that's an Australian perspective: it may well be that Kiwis see it as more important than Australians do, in which case it should certainly go back in again. Tannin
This was my first cut at this topic and merely my own thought, after about 2 days of joining up! I believe that a lot more can be said about it. Changes made above do not seem to have substantially changed the overall meaning and intent of the article, while considerably tightening it.
- The one change that I am concerned about is the reversion of Kiwi bird to Kiwi, which is a disambiguation page. Correct me if I am wrong but according to policy an article about the kiwi (bird) is needed here, so the link should point directly there, even though the article does not exist, rather than the disambiguation page.
kiwiinapanic 11:56 Dec 30, 2002 (UTC)
- Yes. However, the thought of titling an article about the kiwi Kiwi bird fills me with dismay. I think I'd rather say "koala bear" or "moo cow" than "kiwi bird". No matter, I'm working my way through the ratite family already. I'll fix that tonight, with a stub at least. Tannin
Hi! I'm relatively new here, been getting acquainted by attacking the Wikipedia:Disambiguation_pages_with_links list. "Kiwi" looked like a straightforward one, but it seems there's no disambiguation page as such -- just the entry on the bird, kiwi, with links to New Zealand and kiwifruit at the top? And it's been debated before? I don't want to step on toes if it's still an open question, but it looks like Kiwi should read:
Kiwi can refer to:
- The Kiwi (bird)
- A native of New Zealand
- The Kiwi Fruit (should Fruit be lower case?)
"Kiwi bird" does sound dreadful, but shouldn't it at least be at Kiwi (bird), in keeping with other disambiguation titles (and allowing piped links)? Or am I missing a point here? -- Catherine, trying to be bold, but not overbold... :)
- I don't think it pays to be too inflexible in these things. There is indeed a case for a disambiguation page, but an even better one for not having a disambiguation page.
- The entry on the bird has to be at Kiwi because "Kiwi bird" is simply too infantile an expression to tolerate.
- The alternative meanings are subsiduary and derived fromm the original meaning, not true alternatives.
- The short disambiguation section at the top does not intrude on the article as a whole.
- A disambiguation page would serve no purpose that is not already taken care of by the current arrangement.
- There are other short disambiguation sections (as opposed to pure disambiguation pages) dotted about here and there, and have been for ages. Sometimes it just makes more sense to do it that way.
- By leaving it at kiwi we avoid having to bother with piped links or anything else, just type [[kiwi]].
- Tannin 06:37 Feb 25, 2003 (UTC)
- PS. I must remember to get back and finish the entry! It's onlt two-thirds done.
Fair enough -- thank you for clarifying. So if I continue disambiguating links -- should links to Kiwis as a people go to "New Zealand" or "Culture of New Zealand"? (Or something else I've missed?)
I'm greatly enjoying myself here -- and I think the kiwi article looks great! -- Catherine 16:47 Feb 25, 2003 (UTC)
Maybe it's just a case of "Cultural Cringe" but it seems to me that every one of the points mentioned in the Attitudes section portrays New Zealanders in a negative light. Comments like "the desperate assertion that sheep shearing is a valid sport or maybe art form" are not exactly neutral.
Having said that I do agree with a lot of what is said, and never having left New Zealand, I am unaware of international opinions.
Do others, kiwi or not, agree that this section is overly negative?
--AaronCaskey 14:16, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Hmm. It's not so much negative, but that every statement has a deliberate 'counter-balancing' statement. - (Someone outside NZ)
I probably would have held similar sentiments before I left New Zealand myself. Now that I'm based overseas, I'm able to view NZ culture from a more balanced perspective, including its many negative aspects. I have a deep connection to the land of my birth, but I also have many valid criticisms of the nation and the society built on top of it - none of which I was able to voice while still in the country. - (The NZ-born, Australian based contributer of some of the more cynical passages in this page)