Talk:Croatian linguistic purism
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earlier talk -> Talk:Croat and Bosnian neologisms
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Unprotected
If I understand the situation correctly, Mir Harven has departed. Therefore there is no reason for the page to remain protected. -- Cyan 02:36, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Can someone archive some of the above - I'm copying in some of the contentious material to this page, and suggest that we could, one by one, look at each of these proposed examples, and try to reach agreement on where they came from.2toise 05:07, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Previously, this page listed alternative official Croatian translations of the words belt, telephone, pistol, television, gutter, helicopter. As a native Croatian speaker, I am unable to confirm the factual accuracy of any of the given translations; I've hence restored this page to known-good translations. The term 'samokres' (given previously as translation of pistol) is a special term describing particular old guns (i.e. 18th and 19th century pistols); see Ancient gun replicas (http://www.rei-dizajn.hr/replike_artikli2.htm). The terms given for belt and gutter were given as jokes and are simply untrue. The official Croatian term for telephone is 'telefon', not 'brzoglas'; source: Croatian Telecom (http://www.ht.hr/index.shtml). Television is 'televizija', not 'dalekovidnica'; source: Croatian Radiotelevision (http://www.hrt.hr/). The previously given terms for helicopter and aeroplane seem to have been jokes as well, as I can find no sources for them. Since this page seems to carry some type of political charge, please cite your sources if you're adding translations. Ike 22:43, Jan 21, 2004 (UTC)
- As the first link on this page says, please see Talk:Croat and Bosnian neologisms for a previous discussion. We've already established that the table Igor added was flame bait, it's just that no one could be bothered to kill it off, up to now. It's good to see others reacting, though. --Shallot 22:53, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)
English - Serbo-Croat - Bosnian- Litteral translation
| English | Serbo-Croat | Bosnian | Litteral translation |
| coffee | kafa | kahva (official) | |
| obituary | umrlica/smrtovnica | rahmetli poster | RIP poster (official) |
- The origin of translations for "belt" and "gutter" in Croatian and "obituary" in Bosnian are bad jokes. They are in no way official. Bosnian translation for "coffee" was present in the pre-90ies Serbo-Croatian. For the origin of other Croatian translations I'm not sure. --Vedran 17:58, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I like the linguistic purism article, so I redirected this article there. The process of neologism is inherently tied to the purism, so discussing one but not the other seems strange. Martin 12:49, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)
- Maybe, but I think I am probably disinclined to begin the process all over again on a page containing phrases like "Serbia-instigated Yugoslav Army aggression on Croatia". Thanks, 2toise 16:29, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)
I understand that, and the purism article certainly has neutrality problems. But I think it provides a better basis for going forwards, with more detail: I often find that it is easier to neutralise a biased article, than add information to a neutral one. Besides, if we don't merge, the biased article will still exist anyway... Martin 22:36, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)
I zapped the "aggression" silliness, anyway. See if that's better, and see what else needs fixing. Martin 22:54, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)
- I don't see what talking passionately about the war is good for in a linguistics article (even though it's not untrue that it was an aggression, it makes the page sound biased). The problem with the whole deal is that things are misplaced. A bunch of silly joke words aren't encyclopedic material. They're also not a product of purism only, but of people from the street, and possibly not even streets of Croatia and Bosnia but of Serbia, as mockery. And some other stuff, as outlined above, is just erroneous and grossly misrepresented which just goes to prove the latter claim.
- I would recommend removing the newspeak page completely, and adding those two bits of historic data (that purism was on a rise since Yugoslavia started to dissolve and that some took it to the extreme) to the Croatian language page. The purism subpage needs to be proofread (I haven't read it) but I guess there should be something useful in it, seems like a historic overview. If not, zap that too. --Shallot 09:30, 5 Oct 2003 (UTC)
- The two bits of historic data are discussed in the purism article already, though with a different slant, hence my impulse to merge. Martin 12:08, 6 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Constructs
I won't read these kind of articles until such constructs as Communist Yugoslavia still exist herein. What is Communist Yugoslavia in fact? Yugoslavia was never a communist state!. It was a socialist one. Just read its former official name: Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia. I do not see any comms around. Why communism is always used for bad things? It is not the communism itself which is bad, but people. Always people. From Bad to Worst. Best regards. --XJamRastafire 06:16, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)
- It's funny that you should mention that, because I've actually come to the conclusion that in English usage, saying that such a state is a Communist state is much preferred to saying it's a socialist state. I guess it has to do with the fact there are two sorts of socialism so it's less ambiguous to say it's Communist, even though that's quite imprecise. --Shallot 17:02, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Yes, socialism means different things on different sides of the atlantic, and to different people. Communism is still a bit wooly, but it's slightly more precise. "Socialism" can mean everything from Tony Blair through to Marx. --Martin (resident anarcho-communist)
Dispute?
Nobody has made a single fact-related or bias-related accusation, let alone a correction, to the text of the article since 22 October 2003. Not particularly surprising given that the same dispute notice was added by someone who has previously replaced the article with a redirect to another with a different title and without 99% of the content (de facto censoring). I'm therefore removing the dispute notice. Should someone raise an actual concern with the text, we can restore it, of course. --Shallot 16:42, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- The whole Yugoslav period was yet another one of Mir Harven's nonsensical rantings about a Greater-Serbian expansion. REmoved it, will write something that makes sense instead. I don't agree with much of the stuff written in the article anyways so putting back the dispute header. -- Igor
- Replace, don't remove. --Joy [shallot] 16:47, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
comments by 68.4.50.15
English - Croatian - Serbian
Pistol - Samokres - Pistolj
Army - Vojska - Armija
Secretary - Tajnica - Sekretarica
Telephone - Brzoglas - Telefon
Fax - Brzovid - Faks
Airplane - Zrakoplov - Avion
Airport - Zračna luka - Aerodrom
Helecopter - Zrakomlat - Helikopter
Radio - Krugoval - Radio
In contrast to what some people have mentioned on this page, this IS pure Croatian. In the last 100 years, the Croatian language has been attacked and artificialy corrupted by serbs with the intention of destroying the Croatian language and creating a so-called "Greater Serbia." Since Croatia declared independence from Yugoslavia in 1991 and won the Homeland War in 1995, true Croats have been trying to reverse the influnence of serbian words on the Croatian language.
27 March 2005
(J.B.)