Talk:Colony

This article is far, far from being NPOV. Listing Corsica, Guadeloupe and Martinique as colonies while not listing Hawaii is ridiculous. David.Monniaux 06:14, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Equality of treatment on colony

(Transferred from User talk:Bkonrad)

Hi. I think that Hawaii should stay on the list, or that most of the list of French oversea possessions should be removed. All of French inhabited oversea possessions enjoy full citizenship rights. Corsica, Guadeloupe, Martinique, Réunion have almost exactly the same status as the mainland départements. David.Monniaux 17:56, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I have no knowledge of French oversea possessions and so cannot offer any suggestions in that regard. However, I very strongly feel that it is inappropriate to include Hawaii in the list. It is mixing apples and oranges. Hawaii is a fully incorporated part of the U.S. The other entities on the list are unincorporated territory (except Palmyra Atoll). If you can make a case for removing the French possessions, then I'm certainly not going to stop you. But Hawaii does not belong on the list, except possibly in a historical context. It is not presently a colony or dependency (at least not in terms of constitutional or international law). older ≠ wiser 18:12, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The problem is, perhaps none of the lands listed as colonies of France fit the usual definition of "colony" as a country administered from afar without a right to self-determination and without appropriate representation. Should I delete the list?

The listing of Corsica is in itself extremely POV, since it reflects the political stance of the independentist minority of being a "colonized" country.

Would you be so kind as to provide a definition of "colony" or "dependency"? None of these words appear in French legal texts.

To me, Hawaii fits my definition of dependency: it's a remote territorial unit much smaller than the mainland of the country, they had a distinct ethnic population, and they now have a large population that came originally from the mainland. Sounds very much like all most inhabited French possessions (with the exception of St Pierre et Miquelon). David.Monniaux 18:31, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Hawaii is a permanent part of the U.S. All of the other U.S. territories on that list except Palmyra Atoll are unincorporated, which means there is the possibility that they could, at some point, become independent of the U.S. That would not be possible for Hawaii. Also, those insular areas do not have equal status under the U.S. constitution; the U.S. Congress can determine (rather arbitrarily) what portions of the constitution apply to those territories. Hawaii simply does not belong on the list because it enjoys an entirely different status under international and constitutional law.

I am not familiar with France's constitution or how it administers its territories. If you want to try and delete the list, that's up to you. But Hawaii simply does not belong on the list. older ≠ wiser 18:49, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The point is: contrary to the US, France does not make any difference between citizens living on various parts of its territory with respect to national elections. Whatever the status of where you live, you vote like any other citizen living in France in legislative and presidential elections. The Constitution applies everywhere and may not be waved.

Since this is the criterion you apply for deciding that Hawaii is a full part of the US, then I can conclude that all the listed entities listed under French possessions should not have been listed. David.Monniaux 19:21, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Well, I doubt that I'll be the only person to have anything to say about this. I only know about U.S. I will defer to more those more knowledgable concerning the legal status of other countries overseas dependencies and possessions. A small note, the distinction within the U.S. is not so much concern whether the constitution applies to the people of a territory, but pertains more to the actual land itself. When the territory is incorporated as a part of the U.S., it is considered irrevocable and is a permanent part of the country, regardless of it's physical location. The unincorporated territories have a different status because there is the possibility of separating from the U.S. and becoming independent. I think you're current revision to the article may not be entirely accurate as I believe some of the UK's territories are in fact still considered Crown Colonies.

According to the Crown Colony entry, former "crown colonies" are now known as "oversea territories". "Colony" is a loaded word with a pejorative undertone, implying the exploitation of the locals, lack of political rights etc..., rest assured that all Western democracies have ditched such qualifications. (Whether or not the territories are still oppressed is of course a matter of appreciation.)

I do not know if there is a single definition of colony that would apply to all countries. In terms of the U.S., the term colony seems a little anachronistic, but if we use possession or dependency as roughly equivalent, then the main distinction is that the territory is not considered to be an irrevocably permanent part of the U.S. That the constitution only selectively applies is really a by-product of the territory's not being incorporated and is not the defining characteristic. older ≠ wiser 20:12, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Ok. That criterion fits the division I made in the entry about France (between oversea départements and oversea territories). David.Monniaux 20:49, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Moving away the list

The more I look into this, the less I like about this article, but I don't know where to start. The term colony is something of a historical relic, although that is not to deny the continuing impact of colonialism. I think you are correct that no modern nation has what can accurately be called a "colony". And there are so many other articles with slightly different takes on the subject. They really all need to be integrated (not merged, but just made to complement each other and not contradict or cause confusion). Here's just a partial list that I've come across so far:

• France: French overseas territories | Islands controlled by France in the Indian and Pacific oceans | Administrative divisions of France
• Britain: Crown colony | Self-governing colony | Crown dependency
• All: Dependent area | List of dependent territories | List of non-independent areas

I've moved away the list to List of dependent territories where it belongs. David.Monniaux 04:16, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Thank you, thank you, thank you. older≠wiser 11:18, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Decolonization of the USA & Australia

"In some cases, decolonization is hardly possible or impossible because of the importance of the settler population and where the indigenous population is now in the minority; such is the case of the United States, Australia and, to a lesser extent, New Zealand."

Seems rather wrong, and seems to suggest that 99% of the US population would have to move to Europe, Asia, or Africa to "decolonize" the USA. Something that happened either in 1776 or 1783 depending on your point of view.

America was originally inhabited by native Americans. The lands of the natives were largely stolen from them at gunpoint, and settlers from foreign cultures were allowed to move in and settle in their place. The descendants from these settlers largely rule the country now.

In some sense, this means that the United States is a "ultimate" colony - one in which the importance of the native population has been so well diminished that it is even unthinkable that the settling populations should withdraw. The European countries that colonized African countries, India etc. had problems with their colonies essentially because they did not drive the natives out and thus settler descendants were still minorities, albeit sometimes large ones. David.Monniaux 06:27, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

No it became a conquered land. The act of colonisation was while a foreign land was moving its population into the country or exporting its wealth out. Once governance transfered to a local authority, the native people where being conquered by a group who had moved into their lands. :)

ASJ