Talk:Christmas

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Contents

1 Orthodox calendar 2 "Papal propaganda" 3 Liturgical year page 4 Eastern Orthodox calendar 5 Saturnalia 6 Merry Christmas 7 Judicial non dies 8 Thanksgiving 9 Capitalisation of "He" 10 Sol Invictus / Yule 11 Pagan Rites and Antichrist Activities 12 History of Christmas section in article 13 Biblical quote used to criticise the Christmas tree 14 Constantine, etc. 14.1 Nimrod 15 Christmas traditions around the world 16 Commercialization 17 Getting better 18 Holiday vs. Holy day 19 Category:Holidays of the United States 20 Food poisoning scare? 21 Contradictions? 22 XMAS during wars 23 HIS Star 24 Sicily joke: the reindeer goats are officially extinct, let it go, please 25 Constantine 26 Christmas and political correctness? 27 Sections 28 Crimble? 29 Philosophical perspective 30 Christmas articles 31 Christmas points 32 NB Christian definition 33 Who is a Christian? 34 "Merge?

Orthodox calendar

O.K., many of the Orthodox resisted switching to the Gregorian calendar from the Julian calendar, and so though their societies run on the Gregorian calendar, they continue to celebrate their religious holidays according to the Julian one. That means a difference in date. It does not mean that they do not celebrate on the 25th. --MichaelTinkler

If you want to be real specific, Dec 24 Christmas Eve is the most important part of German Xmas and I believe other Europeans too? Everyone goes to church and celebrates on the 24st. 25th is the gathering of the family to the traditional Christmas goose dinner.26th is the 2. Xmas day.user:H.J.

H.J., I hate to break it to you, but the 24th is 'most important' because of the Catholic Church (papal propaganda?). In the middle ages monks developed the custom of celebrating the vigil or 'evening before' (hence, 'eve') of feasts. This practice is known technically as 'anticipation'; in other words, 'starting early'. Christmas Eve and Easter Vigil (the night before Easter) are still the most important two night-time services in Catholicism. --MichaelTinkler

---

To MichaelTinkler No need to break it to me, Protestant church is in the evening, Catholic church is at midnight. Used to go to both. To the anticipation you might want to add the "Advent" , another part of Xmas , greatly overlooked and "forgotten" in USA but very important other places. Back to the propaganda- http://www.newadvent.org/cathgen/12456a.htm dates the official phase of the propaganda start in 1572 . That is of course only when it was actually recorded as such.When I use it I should put it in " ". The seperat German Mythology is a good idea. But the whole thing with Mythology (Asatru) or whatever (for me) goes too much into the unreal . The German(ic) gods, were not really gods in that sence, more an attempt of explaining natural phenomina and should probably rather be called nature spirits instead of the English word gods. I would like to know what Stabreim (the type of poem) is in English though user:H.J.

"Papal propaganda"

You should not use the term 'papal propaganda' to describe late antique and early medieval evangelization efforts even in quotation marks because it is anachronistic. Evangelization was not coordinated by the popes, nor was there an official institution in Rome to train missionaries before the late renaissance. For instance, St. Boniface was not sent by the popes. He volunteered. He went. He was sponsored by the Franks. The popes accepted his mission, but did not send him. If you want to make a general statement, say 'Christian missionaries.' It has the advantage of being both correct and neutral. Stabreim is usually translated as alliteration, and the form is called alliterative poetry. --MichaelTinkler

Don't know about other Christians in America, but the Catholics, Anglicans (Episcopalians), and Lutherans I know (the ones who actually go to church) ALL know about Advent, and many light Advent candles... JHK

To MichaelTinkler and JHK Thank you both. I have never heard of alliteration poetry and would have never thought of translating or explaining Stabreimverse that way. I see that you are touchy about 'papal propaganda' and will remind myself not to use it. Maybe we do want to add "Advent" to the Christmas page ? user:H.J.

Liturgical year page

Actually, I think that there needs to be some kind of Liturgical year page or section somewhere -- to Christianity rather than to Christmas, though. Also (and I am speaking for Michael without his authority) I think the objection is not to the use of 'papal propaganda', but the fact that you are misusing the term, because it has a very specific historical meaning. In the general vein of being touchy, I know that I am particularly so whan an article does not address the purported subject, or when the conclusions drawn in the article have no basis in historical fact and/or method. I guess that's the problem with open content -- you have enough people who care from a professional, as well as a personal, point of view, and we edit as if we were editing the work of our peers -- except that we're nicer on the wiki! JHK

Does anyone fancy working on WikiProject Christian liturgical year? Gareth Hughes 10:58, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Eastern Orthodox calendar

When the article says Eastern Orthodox celebrate on "the civil date of January 7", does that mean by the Gregorian or Julian calendar? If I suspect they mean the Gregorian calendar by "civil", what date do they celebrate it on by the Julian? (I understand they still set Christmas by the Julian.) In which case, we better give the Julian, not Gregorian date, since the Gregorian date will move over time, but the Julian date will remain the same forever (or at least until such time as the Eastern Orthodox decide to finally switch totally to the Gregorian calendar :) -- User:SJK

---

There are a couple more wrinkles to the Eastern Orthodox calendar here, and I only half understand them. One is that there's a third calendar involved called the Revised Julian Calendar, which was adopted by many Orthodox in about 1923. It's used by the Orthodox Church in America, among others. For the most part, it brings them into sync with the Gregorian Calendar so they both agree on when a given date occurs (no more 10 or 13 day differential), and it keeps the Spring Equinox on March 21. But they also calculate Easter according to the 325A.D. method, same as the Old Calendarists, so that all Orthodox still celebrate Easter on the same day, along with the movable feasts that are based on N days or Sundays before or after Easter.

Now with regard to Christmas in particular, this feast used to be combined with Theophany ("Epiphany" in the West?), which falls on January 6 and is all about Christ's baptism. In both feasts, Christ is revealed to the world, first simply by being born into it, in the second through the voice from Heaven and the blessing of the Holy Spirit acknowledging who He is, and also revealing God as three persons, since all three are present in that scene. At any rate, the date of Theophany on one calendar comes pretty close to the date of Christmas on the other; I suspect the time between them might be the famous "12 days of Christmas" though I'm not sure; guess I need to research this better.

Also with regard to Advent, the Orthodox observe a 40 day fast, sometimes called "Winter Lent", leading up to Christmas, or the Feast of the Nativity. It's not as strict as Great Lent which leads up to Easter, and exact fasting guidelines vary between jurisdictions. --Wesley

Saturnalia

what was december 25 originally, before it was appropriated by Christianity? Saturnalia? -- SJK

Christianity rolled up a raft of pre-Christian traditions: Graeco-Romano, Celtic, Nordic and Eastern e.g. elements of Mithraism, etc. These tend to figure more in the geographical areas in which these absorbed cultures previously inhabited e.g. things like Yule logs are more likely to be seen in Scandinavia where these were a part of the old Odinnic cult celebrations and less prevalent in e.g. Ireland. Dec 25 and the Christmas festive brou-ha-ha are not culturally homogenous entities. Concepts like the Peterman, etc are unheard of in Britain yet prevalent in Holland, for example.sjc

Merry Christmas

I just had to say... Merry Christmas!

) [8-) ;) --KA

Judicial non dies

What on earth does "Epiphany and Christmas were not made judicial non dies until 5~4." mean? User:SGBailey 13:00 Dec 12, 2002 (UTC)

Judicial holidays. Anjouli 17:12, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Thanksgiving

The article reads: "Christmas is celebrated to a lesser extent in the United States, where Thanksgiving is generally considered the major festival in the year." This statement really surprises me, as I am an American living in the U.S. and I've never heard anyone say or suggest that Thanksgiving gets more attention than Christmas. In the United States, Christmas far surpasses Thanksgiving in terms of preparation, commercialism, and secular as well as nonsecular observance. Anyone else agree with me on this? I didn't want to change the article willy-nilly.

I'd agree there. Most people I know have dinner for Thanksgiving, but do little else. Christmas, for most people I know, is a much bigger thing.. relatives drive/fly in, they decorate their homes, shop for weeks in advance, prepare large dinners, etc. Some people I know actually take all day to open presents.. -Jazz77

Capitalisation of "He"

Should the "He" and "His" referring to Jesus in this article be made with lowercase 'H'? Seems like capitolizing it is not NPOV, and it is also kind of distracting. The Jesus Christ article uses lowercase for the pronouns.

Sol Invictus / Yule

I believe there should be something about the European origins of Christmas, that is the Roman Sol Invictus or German Yule. Or should this go elsewhere?

(IIRC) you are correct that Christmas was choosen to supplant a Roman holiday (It could be Sol Invictus - I can't remember the name). Please add it to the article. →Raul654 17:15, Mar 8, 2004 (UTC)

It is often said that Christmas occurs at 25 December because it occurs on the date of an earlier Roman holiday. I can find no evidence of this. Looking at early calendars, the Saturnalia is earlier on in December, and over by the 25th and the festival of the unconquered sun is an Imperial invention I believe, and may well be later than the earliest references to Christmas (though of course these are arguable).

My suspicion is that the relationship between Christmas and Saturnalia (and maybe DSI) is a neat and oft-repeated explanation with little basis in fact. Anyone any evidence.

Agnes Michels's book "The Calendar of the Roman Republic" is a very good account of the festivals of Rome up to CJC. 82.68.102.190 20:06, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Pagan Rites and Antichrist Activities

"In vain they worship me, teaching for doctrine the doctrine of men." (Matthew 15:9) I feel explains it all. I would not want Christ to assess all I have done to worship Himand find out He classified all my attempts as vain. The Bible offers 7 HOLYdays and a Weekly Sabbath to worship Jesus Christ properly.

Look at like this: You hire people to do a job, they decide not to do what you tell them and go ahead and do it their way. Your work is not being done. Do you keep those employees or fire them? How do you think Christ feels about us "Doing it Our Way?"

Finally Christmas is a modern evolution of a pagan festival that came from Babalonia from the time of Nimrod. It involves Nimrod who had a son, Tammuz, by him mother (whose name I cannot spell, Sin-a-ram-us.) Any way, the back ground event is briefly as follows: Nimrod was killed by Isrealites when he waged war to kill all who worshiped God. At his death, the Isrealites chopped his body in to pieces and sent those pieces in opposite directions. his mother/wife delcared herself god as Nimrod was now in heaven and will depart heavenly gifts upon his/her followers (Aka the Tree with Gifts) for the express purpose to destroy God's people on Earth. The Yule Log is his body, a remembrence to hate God's people. ** This stuff is in your public library, read it and learn the truth. **

Christmas is the exact opposit of what it poses to be.

History of Christmas section in article

This section feels to me as if it should be a separate article; the subject matter isn't primarily Christmas, but even the parts that are come at it in a detailed & unfamiliar way that doesn't seem consistent with the rest of the article. But I'm tired and it's late (my usual excuses) and I can't get my mind around it now. Anyone else? Elf | Talk 04:46, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I noticed the same, and just made a major edit to remove POV (see below) and improve flow, but it still needs better composition.--Johnstone 16:33, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Biblical quote used to criticise the Christmas tree

Because it is based completely on one particular translation of Jeremiah, I have removed the following criticism of the Christmas trees from the article:

"Jeremiah 10:1-5 speaks of this custom, "Hear the word which The Lord speaks to you, O house of Yisrael. Thus said The Lord, 'Do not learn the way of the nations, and do not be awed by the signs of the heavens, for the nations are awed by them. For the prescribed customs of these peoples are worthless, for one cuts a tree from the forest, work for the hands of a craftsman with a cutting tool. They adorn it with silver and gold, they fasten it with nails and hammers so that it does not topple. They are like a rounded post, and they do not speak. They have to be carried because they do not walk. Do not be afraid of them, for they do no evil, nor is it in them to do any good.'" The Bible describes the Christmas tree as an idol. It might not be by chance that at Christmas we place our gifts at the foot of the tree just as many other idols are offered gifts at their feet."

An alternate translation of the underlined portion, in the New Jerusalem Bible (which is translated directly from the original Hebrew) reads:

"Yes, the customs of the peoples are quite futile: wood, nothing more, cut out of a forest, worked with a blade by a carver's hand, then embellished with silver and gold, then fastened with hammer and nails to keep from moving. Like scarecrows in a melon patch, they cannot talk, they have to be carried, since they cannot walk. Have no fear of them: they can do no harm—nor any good either!"

Since they are not carved out of wood, and do not resemble a scarecrow, this is hardly a rail against Christmas trees.--Johnstone 16:33, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Constantine, etc.

I have removed the following paragraph:

"When Constantine, who was a self-proclaimed Sun-worshipper all his life, came into the picture, he created the Catholic Church (Catholic meaning Universal), revealing that his true intention was to allow numerous pagan rituals and ideologies to be intermixed with belief in the Creator. This made room for the pagans without forcing them to drop their pagan practices and accept Christianity. The Pagans had no difficulty worshipping the Catholic Madonna and child because they were just seen as another manifestation of the Queen of Heaven and her son. The Pagans made no compromises; they didn't need to, they just continued their Pagan worship within the church.

It appears to be based on statements in The Da Vinci Code that have been debunked in The Da Vinci Hoax (and others). Constantine was not a life-long sun-worshipper. He was baptised in 337, just before his death. ("It was common for Christians at the time to put off baptism until their deathbed. Serious sins committed after baptism would require severe penance, so some considered it safer to wait until the end of life to be baptized.") He did not create the Catholic Church, and "intermix" pagan rituals and ideologies into it. ("Why would Christians who had suffered just a few years earlier under Diocletian for refusing to renounce their unique beliefs about God, Jesus, and salvation willingly compromise those same beliefs without so much as a whimper?") Equating the Madonna and child with pagan goddess and child-god is "a curious statement since any sensible person recognizes that the image of a nursing mother is hardly unique to one religion or culture." --Johnstone 16:33, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Nimrod

I am removing the following, and will add it to Nimrod (king):

Genesis 10:8-10 describes Nimrod as one of the great grandsons of Noah. It says, "And Kush brought forth Nimrod, who was the first potentate on earth. He was a mighty hunter in the eyes of The Lord, therefore it is said, "Like Nimrod the mighty hunter in the eyes of The Lord." And the beginning of his reign was Babel, and Erek and Akkad and Kalned, in the land of Shin'ar." Nimrod was looked upon as a great leader and protector. His being a hunter and protector of the small villages from wild animals gave reason for him to be viewed as their savior.

Traditions outside of the Bible suggest that Nimrod died a violent death. One tradition says that he was killed by a wild animal. Another says that Shem killed him because he had led the people into the worship of Baal. According to ancient Egyptian and Babylonian traditions, his mother was Semiramis; sometimes Semiramis is referred to as the mother of Nimrod, and sometimes as his wife, leading to the belief that Nimrod married his mother. Also according to these traditions, Semiramis, who rose to greatness because of her son, was presented with a difficulty when her son died, so instead she pronounced him to be a god, so that she herself would become a goddess.

One tradition says that after Nimrod was killed, Semiramis claimed that an evergreen tree sprouted from a tree stump, which she said indicated the entry of new life into the deceased Nimrod; every year on the anniversary of Nimrod's birth (December 25th) they would leave gifts at this evergreen tree. This is presented by some as a possible explanation the origin of the Christmas tree. Even though Semiramis claimed to be a virgin she had another son, named Tammuz, who she said was the reincarnation of Nimrod. She became known as the "Virgin Mother", "Holy Mother" and the "Queen of Heaven" and was symbolized by the Moon. So began the worship of Semiramis and the child-god, and the whole paraphernalia of the Babylonian religious system.

After the decline of Babylon, the religion was transported to Egypt where the people worshipped Isis and her son Osiris (otherwise known as Horus). The same mother and child deities appeared in Pagan Rome as Fortuna and Jupiter, and in Greece as Ceres, the Great Mother, with the babe at her breast, or as Irene, the goddess of Peace, with the boy Plutus in her arms.

Christmas traditions around the world

I said this in Talk:Santa Claus too: I think it's a good idea to scrape together all the bits of information about the celebration of Christmas in non-English speaking countries that doesn't relate to the history of Christmas into a new page called "Christmas traditions around the world" or something. There we can list foreign names for Santa, Christmas decorations, etc., etc. and leave the Christmas and Santa pages devoted entirely to English speaking traditions and their histories.

Is everyone cool with this plan?

--Carl 03:57, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'm not cool with it, as I've just said on WP:FAC. When the article was changed into being devoted entirely to English-speaking countries, the article name ought have been changed, too. Wikepedia is supposed to be an international encyclopedia in English, not the U.S. + UK + Commonwealth encyclopedia. The logical thing would be to have a central page called "Christmas", which summarized and linked to both existing pages like Christmas customs in Poland and also to Christmas customs in the U.S., Christmas customs in the UK, Christmas customs in Australia and so on. Unless indeed people think a joint Anglophone Christmas (or something) is more suitable, in view of how much the anglophone Christmas customs and media Christmases have in common with each other. In other words, there should be no intermediate layer of Christmas around the world — the English-speaking countries are in the world.--[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen (talk)]] 22:38, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC) P. S. I rather agree with you about Santa Claus, on the other hand. That's completely different.--[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen (talk)]] 23:04, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I thought that plan was already in effect, as the current article links (both in the "national customs" section and in the "see also" at the end) twice with "Christmas around the world", where non-English speaking traditions are discussed. I had hoped that the holiday cheer would either loosen up the critics, or inspire someone to buff this up instead of shoot it down. At least I gave it a try, but with so many people chipping in on this popular subject, it is near impossible to write the article "by committee".Sfahey 23:15, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

C'mon. The spirit of the season can't or won't make room for the non-English-speaking world in an article named Christmas, what kind of holiday cheer does that project? I hope somebody will buff up the article, but if you put it up for FA, I think it's appropriate for me to criticize it even if I don't have the time to put in big-time work on it myself (which I think it needs: either that, or a simple name change). I only criticized in some detail because I thought it might be helpful, sorry if it ruined your Christmas instead. I do understand it must be frustrating to try to keep an article like this from popping off in all sorts of directions.--[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen (talk)]] 00:20, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I created the "Christmas around the world" article, because the article on Santa Claus used to have the Finnish name for Santa listed in bold in the header for the article. I think we can all agree, that non-English names for things don't belong in the header of English articles. That's why we have links to other languages. I then looked around and found that both the pages on Santa Claus and Christmas were littered at random with factoids about the celebration of Christmas outside the Anglosphere. I figured it would make most sense to collect these factoids into a central location and refocus the Christmas and Santa articles on English speaking traditions. I agree that other traditions should also be described, but since a lot of overlapping information about non-English traditions were already being cross posted between Christmas and Santa, it made most sense to put them both into one place. "Christmas around the world" was the best title I could think of for this, but I agree that it's a poor title. Perhaps the article should be renamed "Non-English speaking Christmas traditions." In any event, the page has enough information to stand on its own, and I remember having to write a report about how Christmas is celebrated in other nations when I was 8, so probably having the information consolidated into a page will be of use to other children in the future. Reflecting some more, perhaps the Christmas article should be split up into three different articles: Christmas (religious observance), Christmas (Anglophone traditions), and Christmas (Non-anglophone traditions). The three topics are each full enough to merit a full page, and it's a good project for a collaboration of the week.--Carl 11:41, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I just worked in a lot of stuff in the lead and elsewhere to make this a tad more universal. To make this live up to the ideal notion of an international article demands a much heavier hand, as much of the remaining items in the article are hopelessly parochial. It's too bad that "Japanese toilet", "Pepsi-can stove", and "Exploding whales" can make it to the front page, but topics that generate universal interest are doomed to die in committee.Sfahey 03:54, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Commercialization

I found some information on the over-commercialization of Christmas and I've sent the articles to some of my relatives. To the view of Rev. Lau of my church, Christmas should be the day for celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ. For over 130 years, people have been shopping a lot during the Christmas cycle, esp. those in US and Canada. This year, economists estimate that the sales amount of Christmas cycle will amount to 23% of annual total. I and the Rev. disagree because this seems to completely ruin he real purpose of this festival. If you have other comments, you can add or you can reply me at cheung1303@netvigator.com (mailto:cheung1303@netvigator.com) --Cheung1303 03:29, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Getting better

You now can read well into this article without getting swamped by the much-criticized Anglo-American slant. Evidently, nominating it for FAC was helpful. Anyone want to take it the next step ... chopping up UK and US "Media Christmas" for example, or incorporating the international stuff better into the main text? ... and perhaps re-nom it in time?Sfahey 00:22, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Many imprvnts this week. In the same vein as above, anyone want to move/shorten/shuffle those Ang-Amer centric sections ... and maybe shorten or footnote the (interesting but parochial) Oliver Cromwell section as well ... and re-nom. this timely article?Sfahey 00:05, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Holiday vs. Holy day

Come on...which is it Really? I believe we need to include HOLY ; (I did a Find search) not once is the word Holy said. We may have enter a said period in our time when Christmas is no longer considered a Holy day, but rather a Holiday - along with Groundhog Day, Boxing Day and not to mention the endless lines at your local Wal-Mart.
PEACE RoboAction 08:41, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Category:Holidays of the United States

I hope it's seen as helpful rather than scroogey that I've removed the article from Category:Holidays of the United States, sincde that's defined as "a collection of articles about holidays celebrated only, or primarily, in the United States". Incidentally, please do not add the article to the wider Category:Holidays either, as it is already a member of that (through the subcategory Category:Christmas.--[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen (talk)]] 21:37, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Food poisoning scare?

I did not find any reason for the reference to Swedish newspapers testing foods in the paragraph which I shortened. Without such an explanation the item seemed lengthy (and bizarre). Sfahey 21:04, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

In that case, I totally don't understand why you've now put the food poisoning scare sentence back, after I removed it. (The seasonal scare is an established media tradition, and personally I think the article can do with a little bizarre, but that's me.)--[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen (talk)]] 21:34, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

(at the risk of beating a dead reindeer) I don't like to delete material which someone made the effort to contribute. In this case I saw flowery phraseology and slang ("slap-up") about a (food poisoning) scare which had not itself been mentioned. I thought it warranted toning down and explication, but not necessarily deletion. Curiously, the sentence which was left behind after someone else deleted the whole (Swedish food) thing suggested that a Disney movie is the most-entrenched tradition of Swedish Christmas. Can THIS be true? I gave it the benefit of some doubt and just inserted the qualifier, "perhaps".Sfahey 22:52, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, I thought my edit summaries were very clear, those someones were all me. I contributed the paragraph about the julbord tradition and the media julbord scare tradition, you shortened it (don't understand the bit about you adding an explanation or explication), I removed the whole food material because I thought it a hollow shell without the attractively traditional aspect of the media scare, you reinserted it. Please just put any and all parts of the paragraph that you don't approve out of their misery, have you never heard of cruelty to animals? There are no someones out there to offend, nobody else added or removed any Swedish stuff. Incidentally, the reference to Ingmar Bergman, that you have also cleaned off (too flowery?), that was me, too. As for the Disney special on Christmas Eve being the one overarching Swedish Christmas tradition, yes, it's true. There's a lot of regional variation in Sweden, because the land is big although the population is small, so quarrels are liable to break out about any and all non-Disney aspects of Christmas, depending on where people have their roots. ("Baked ham? The hell you say! The traditional boiled pike!"--"Lutfisk!"--"All that matters is that you make your own mustard from whole mustard seed!"--"Herring salad!" Etc.). I quite understand if you won't take my word for the sense of national unity Swedes get from watching Disney on Christmas Eve, but ask any Swede--User:Fredrik or User:Mic come to mind. Merry Christmas.--[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen (talk)]] 00:40, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Contradictions?

The article states that the accounts of Matthew and Luke are contradictory or conflicting. I have read the story in both places many times and see no conflicts or contradictions. Eyewitness accounts commonly have different areas of focus or viewpoint. While Matthew and Luke were not direct eyewitnesses, they lived at a time where they were able to speak to those that either were eyewitnesses or only once or twice removed from the direct eyewitnesses, such as Mary herself or James the brother of Jesus. Luke gives the story primarily from Mary's viewpoint, whereas Matthew gives the story primarily from Joseph's viewpoint. -- Daniel Leatherwood

Yes, the differing way they deal with the announcement of Mary's pregnancy is easily reconciliable. I'll have to read them again to confirm that Matthew sends the family to Nazareth only to escape Herod's threat, while Luke has them from Nazareth to begin with, and in Bethlehem only for the census.Sfahey 20:15, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I agree too. Where're the contradictions? None. They compliment each other nicely I should say. So please remove this line: As one of the tenets of their faith, Christians accept the veracity of the story of Christmas, apparent difficulties reconciling the different versions of events notwithstanding. Thank you. --Garlics82 14:04, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)

XMAS during wars

I think that during IWW and possibly IIWW on many fronts the fighting stopped and soldiers from different sides mingled. Can anybody verify this, and possibly and more similiar trivia from other historical periods? This would definetly be a good example of 'good will towards man'. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 15:59, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

hmmmm. that may relate to the carol, "Silent Night". The article is long already, but I will look into this eventually.Sfahey 02:35, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The carol in mind was "Christmas in the Trenches". Its story is worth looking up.Sfahey 15:24, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yes, the famous "Christmas truce of 1914", if I remember the year right. It was early on in the war anyways. On Christmas eve, the Germans and English started singing Christams songs loudly at each other. In the morning, they went out into no mans land under flag of truce and initiated a short cease fire. Everyone got along quite well, traded goods (Germans had beer and cigars, English had better food and cigarettes, I believe) and even traded bits of uniforms for souveniers. Football games started. The truce dragged on. One Englishmen met his former barber, a German who had been living in England. The two sides helped each other post letters to loved ones in enemy territory. The officers couldn't convince the men to start killing one another again. They eventually resumed "fighting" but intentionally fired too high so as to miss. All the men had to be transferred elsewhere and fresh troops for both sides brought in, because those who had been a part of the Christmas truce refused to kill each other.

HIS Star

I'm referring to this line in "The story of Christmas": "Like the Magi, the shepherds observed a huge star directly over Bethlehem, and followed it to the birthplace." The whole 2nd chapter of Luke, in fact, the whole Bible never mentioned about the shepherds seeing the star as the wise men did which stated in Matthew 2:2. Assumption shouldn't be made.

Obviously, these are two different incidents which took place in different times and places: The first case (Luke 2:1-20), at the night when Jesus was born, the angle announced the news to the shepherds. They went for a search for Him with the only sign given: "And this shall be a sign unto you; ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger."-Luke 2:12.

The second event (Matthew 2:1-13), the wise men from the east saw the star and came to worship Him. Whether the star appeared before or after the birth, surely they needed some time to travel, ranging from days perhaps months to be more appropriate in those years (talk about Arabia to Jerusalem...). Well may be it was such a co-incident that the star started shinning way before Jesus was born, exactly the time needed for their journey and boom- bunch of people wedged in a manger (the wise men? Not necessary three, could be four, five or more...). However, let's go back to Matthew 2:1-2,"Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem...". Jesus was already born while they were still in Jerusalem asking Herod the king for the precise location.

Few keywords from KJV to take note of between Luke and Matthew:

• babe -> young child;
• manger -> house; ,
• Jesus, Mary and Joseph -> Jesus and Mary only.

--Garlics82 15:43, Dec 24, 2004 (UTC)

Sicily joke: the reindeer goats are officially extinct, let it go, please

On Dec 20, an anon contributed a pretty amusing joke paragraph under "Regional customs" about the unique Sicilian species the "reindeer goat" trecking through the snow [sic] on Christmas Eve to receive the blessing of the Marchese of the village (himself a Wikipedian, I have no doubt) from the balcony of his palazzo. I regretfully removed the paragraph some hours later. But yesterday, Dec 23, 66.56.91.185 (another anon, not, I believe, identical with the Marchese) reinstated it ! C'mon, folks, a joke's a joke. It's over now. If you don't believe me, google for the reindeer goats, break out a map to check out the Sicilian climate, and, finally, check the Marchese's Christmas blessing in a Latin dictionary. I'm removing it again.--Bishonen | (Talk) 21:58, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Constantine

I thought that Constantine I set Xmas to be Dec 25 to coincide with an important pagan holiday? Someone, other than myself, should look into that.

Christmas and political correctness?

Could this article benefit from a paragraph on political correctness? It seems like in recent years the public celebration of Christmas (even in secular ways) has caused controversy due to the holiday's religious nature. Meanwhile, some Christians have become upset that public celebration and recognition of one of their favorite holidays is becoming almost taboo.

Would this article benefit from a short paragraph about this? - Chardish

Perhaps a separate article, "The Christmas Controversy?" Is it a religious holiday or a secular holiday with religious origins? Either way, is it appropriate for the holiday to completely dominate a society (I'm speaking from a US perspective here) simply because the majority of its citizens are Christians? Is downplaying Christmas or acknowledging other holidays really an "attack" on Christmas as the Fox News Channel (and other conservatives) would have us believe? --207.69.138.10 05:38, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

A "short paragraph on political correctness" wouldn't be a single paragraph for very long, I bet: it would be bound to provoke the usual acrimonious Religious Right versus Liberal battle and edit war along the usual US lines (speaking from a non-US perspective here), as seen in so many places on Wikipedia. I think it would take over the Christmas article, discourage anybody interested in contributing on other aspects, and leave the page yet another charred battleground. I agree with anon, a separate article is a good idea, with a link from this one.--Bishonen | (Talk) 08:33, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Sections

Would anyone else be in favour of moving/copying some content onto sub-pages? Christmas dinner for example, is blank at the moment, as are Christmas traditions, Christmas worldwide, The_Christmas_story, and presumably Santa_Claus has lots of people writing on his own page without needing to repeat their work here. Ojw 12:48, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

That would be good. The references to the subtopics should still be 1-2 sentences, to make coherent narrative. Stan 13:28, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

!!!Hey! That's not the way to do it, Ojw! You've deleted half the article without even a comment in the edit field! Please create appropriate subpages, and give detailed info about them on this page, before deleting material. And before that, please give the people who've worked on the article a chance to respond to your original proposal. Being bold is one thing, halving an article that was just voted a Featured article (were you aware of this?) is another. I'm confident you have good intentions, but I'm going to revert to the version before yours now (see how I say so on the Talk page before I actually do it?), and look forward to more discussion on this page, of your apparently quite drastic plans for Christmas.--Bishonen | (Talk) 14:47, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Many apologies, and thanks to everyone who did it properly after my attempt. There seemed to be lots of sections which were distinct enough in their style and content to warrant a wikipedia entry of their own, although you're quite correct that my edit was the wrong way to do it. Regards, etc. Ojw 21:53, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

====Thank You, Bish====. At least, before the newcomers chopped it up, they asked for opinions anyway. They might go back a couple of months and see how far this article has come to date. In the aftermath of this ongoing Holiday frenzy cooler heads will hopefully prevail.Sfahey 18:28, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Crimble?

I'm from the American South, and I've never heard the term "crimble." Probably, we should explain who is it that affectionately refers to Christmas as crimble, and why. --Carl 20:10, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Same here, I'm nuking it. Google gets 950-10000 results, depending on if you include Christmas in the search. Xmas gets 13 million results; I'd say that's a pretty good threshhold. =p Either way, it seems either a slang or a very localized term. If someone can explain just where we might hear Crimble, then there might be a case for readdition (but not bolded). --Golbez 10:18, Dec 27, 2004 (UTC)

As a non-native English speaker, who once met some-one from Liverpool - I think the expression is "Crimbo" and crimble is a topping for an apple pie. I humbly suggest this, I could be wrong Giano 11:24, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Philosophical perspective

Removed somewhat diffuse exchange on contribution by Gabriel Kent, please see History. The upshot of it is described by Sfahey thus:

I have difficulty following the above series of exchanges/events/misunderstandings, but it still remains that the segment in question is not properly part of an encyclopedia article on Christmas. At best it is POV. Perhaps, since one COULD describe it as sort of a compendium of various abstract POV's, it might have its own page, but I plan to move it from its current location.Sfahey 00:33, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Gabriel's text has now been moved by Sfahey to Philosophical Perspective on the Spirit of Christmas. A happy new year to all!--Bishonen | Talk 08:43, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Christmas articles

Here are a couple of articles on Christmas (and Easter). The Origins of Christmas and Easter (http://www.ccg.org/english/s/p235.html) Article on Christmas and Easter (http://www.ccg.org/english/s/p236.html) Please read and post your comments. daf

I'm no expert, but this information seems to jibe with the current Christmas article's references to saturnalia and other pagan customs having been incorporated into the traditions of Christian holidays.I wouldn't say however, as the lead sentence of this web site recklessly states, that "Christmas" and "Easter" are therefore "not at all Christian ". sfahey, 1/3/05

Christmas points

I noticed with interest the general application of the word 'christian'. It is important to note that there are fundamentaly different views regarding practices and doctrines amongst christianity and christians. It is important to note in comments e.g. Christmas, whether this is a biblical scriptural event, practice or custom, or doctrinal with regards to one or more sections of christianity.

With the entry of Christmas, it is of note that no reference to christmas, or command/custom to celebrate the birth of Christ can be found in the bible. Refer to many encyclopedia references with regards to the origin of christmas.

Probably a good way is to structure a section specifically on the origin of Christmas, showing the multiple influences and the proclamation of Constantine, after which the celebration became popular.

Hard to quarrel with most of this, except that the article clearly delineates the differences between "biblical" events, secular customs, and the pagan roots of the current celebrations. In any event, the recent additions to the LEAD PARAGRAPH are clearly "over the top" for this section, and will be (at least) moved.Sfahey 22:45, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

NB Christian definition

Given the latest number of adds and deletes, I notice what is surfacing here is a difference with reference to the term 'Christian', and who may or may not encompass this group.

The article states that Christmas is a holiday in the christian calendar. As the term 'Christian' denotes being a follower of Christ, it is incorrect to state this as a 'Christian' holiday, as this is a denominational holiday, or rather, a holiday instituted not by biblical directive or command, but rather by tradition and other events, and celebrated by certain church or denominational groups. At least clearly define Christmas as not having a biblical origin in the heading, and not being celebrated by all who profess to follow christ, then all else are ok.

Let me illustrate. If people in my cultural region or country decide to implement a new holiday, non biblical, - lets say 'Christian fishing day' that is partly political, partly tradition etc, I would be incorrect to categorically say that this is a holiday in the 'Christian calendar', celebrated by 'Christians'. Of course I can say it has precedent in the bible as 'fishing' played an important part in the apostles lives. (For those that do not get the point, use another example e.g. a new day called 'Christ healing day'?) It would apply to our group and circumstances only, not to the greater whole. The same with Christmas. Just because some denominations, eg the Catholic and Protestant churches 'decided' to celebrate an added holiday, does not mean all followers of Christ do.

I am sure there are many that find the origin and practice of christmas offensive. Contributors have agreed to the pagan origins and non christian practices involved, and yes it has become a 'de facto' holiday celebrated by the masses, but is definitely not 'de jure', from the source of christian beliefs. Please note that it is not my intention to be controversial in this regard, and I do not disrespect a day that carries importance to others. However, from a 'knowledge correctness' point of view, in favour of precise knowledge, this should be adapted to reflect correctly.

hmmmm. I've thought about this at length. "Christmas" I think "began" in the early years of Christianity, when there was but one Christian church. Things first splintered after Constantine, and I think most if not all "Christians" continued to celebrate Christmas, albeit settling on different dates. What are the exceptions to Christians recognizing Christmas? Unless I'm missing something big here, as long as the article goes (deeply) into the pagan roots and secular present-day aspects of the holiday, I don't see a problem with introducing it as a "Christian" holiday. Sfahey 16:24, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Who is a Christian?

There has been some discussion on whether Christmas is Christian or not, because it is non-Biblical. It seems to me it mostly rests on what definition is used for Christian. It seems that the article is written int the sense of as christianity = 'what the majority of those who profess themselves to be christians do'. This is not necessarily unfair, but is necessarily innacurate. A major example of a christian group which does not celebrate christmas is the Jehovah's Witnesses. They are christian in the sense that they profess to follow Christ, believe the Bible, and would likely label themselves christians. However, the mainstream christian groups define christianity as groups which follow a particular set of doctrines. Generally this set of doctrines includes the trinity (interestingly a term also not found in the Bible) which the Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe. Thus the complication of the issue starts to come to light. JW's would likely call themselves christians, and reject christmas, but mainstream christianity would say they are not christian. Some members of mainstream christianty are more fundamenatalists in their outlook and also reject celebrating christmas, and hence somewhat resent the implication in the article that christmas is christian.

So what I'm saying (after all this ramble) is that those christians which don't celebrate christmas need to reconcile themselves with the fact that not all christian groups follow the Bible, or do so in the same way or to the same extent (else they would all agree). When you label yourself a christian without delving into the nitty-gritty details you are accepting a very wide and loose definition of the term.

Perhaps it could all be addressed by adding a sentence to the effect that some religious groups reject the celebration of christmas due to its non-Biblical orgins?

(I see note 3 has a reference to past rejection of christmas, perhaps add a note there that some groups to this day object to christmas?)

"Merge?

I don't understand the intent of the recently added "merge" comments atop the "Secular customs" section of "Christmas". This is a featured article, and large changes should be made only after careful deliberation. Clearly the two subsidiary articles are repetitious and should be disambiguated/merged however. Sfahey 22:54, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

• It was me who added the tag after accidentally discovering that more or less the same content is triplicated, with little differences in length and depth. Thus, either the content from the two other pages should be integrated here, or this page should have a short version with a reference to another article discussing the issue in more detail. In any case, whoever edits this article should attempt to preserve featured article quality. Martg76 23:32, 1 May 2005 (UTC)