Talk:Chaos magic

NPOV Neutrality

This article is written from the point of view that Chaos magic is real. Hugo Hadlow

Could you give specific examples? I've read through the article, and nothing is saying that Chaos magic actually works or accomplishes anything. It's just saying that given that some people practice magic, Chaos magic is one means of practicing that. Much like how the Protestantism talks about how it differs from regular Christianity, without discussing whether Christianity itself is correct, or even whether Jesus or God exists.

- Lifefeed 19:12, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)

magic is simply any unexplained process. whether it works can be personally evaluated by the practitioner, but since it's unexplained, the question of whether this tests any real phenomenon is problematic because it is not independently verifiable. -- 70.28.153.5 22:47, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Relation to other types of magic

"Chaos magic is also a place for individuals that would find no acceptance in other traditions of magic, such as Ian Read, former National Front activist and now editor of Rûna, homosexual magician and author Phil Hine and drug use advocate Julian Vayne."

I have excised the above from the main article on Chaos Magic as I find it deeply problematic for a number of reasons.

Firstly, the idea that individuals that would find no acceptance in other traditions of magic due to the 'fact' of them being right-wing, homosexual, or pro-drugs is, as a global statement, rather simplistic. While some magical orders do openly state that they do not accept members who use drugs or are not heterosexual, this is rather different than making a generalised claim that all other traditions (apart from chaos magic) reject individuals on the grounds of politics, sexuality, or drugs advocacy. There is certainly a debate which is worth having around politics, sexuality, and drugs and their relation to the occult.

Still on this point - on a biographical level, at least, it's demonstratably false. Both Julian and myself have been involved in a number of magical traditions - such as Wicca and Thelema.

Secondly, I find it intriguing that the author(s?) of this paragraph have isolated, for each of the individuals they're using to indicate the character of chaos magic, a highly-charged significator. Ian Read = ex-National Front activist, Phil Hine = homosexual, Julian Vayne = drugs advocate - and the conflation of these three highly-charged terms (hardly neutral) go together to imply something quite negative about chaos magic - especially as the reader has been told that these three things are not accepted in other magical traditions. It rather gives the impression that chaos magic is a dumping ground for degenerates of various stripes. And it also implies to a certain extent that there's a relationship between the three things as well - apparently one thing leads to another.

A far more 'neutral' statement (though still biographically accurate) could be:

"Chaos magic is also a place for individuals that would find no acceptance in other traditions of magic, such as musician Ian Read and now editor of Rûna, former Pagan News editor Phil Hine and permaculture advocate Julian Vayne."

Though I'll grant you, it doesn't have quite the same impact, does it? Indeed, readers will be left wondering what it is that other 'magical traditions' have against musicians, fanzine editors or permaculture advocates.

Finally, it's not my intention to appear to be 'censoring' public discussion of Ian Read's political history or Julian's advocacy of drugs (or indeed his advocacy of Tarot cards), it's just that I feel that it's simplistic to imply that any one attribute of any individual is somehow indicative of a whole "movement". Oh, and btw, whilst I have no problem with being labelled as "homosexual" I'm not, in actuality, homosexual. I can't help wondering though, why for the writers of the above paragraph, the 'fact' that I'm "homosexual" is more important to point out than me being a magician, or indeed, an author.

Phil Hine

I don't find this paragraph said all other traditions reject people with such highly-charged traits. Inserting "many" before "other traditions" would have been enough to clarify this.

I don't see what's so negative about right-wing politics, drugs, or homosexuality, either. What I meant to point out when I wrote this part was that chaos magic is much more accepting of personal flavors and opinions than societies (or most magical traditions) are. Alright, perhaps trying to do so by means of examples is not a good idea, and I'm sorry I got your sexuality wrong. Still the very high level of tolerance among chaos magicians is something I find very worthwhile noting, if in another way.

Wade Butler

I wonder if chaos magic is another term for conversion? It seems to me that this paradigm shifting methodology has a lot in common with religious conversions that suddenly transform the way that a person thinks.

not conversion so much as self-directed shape-shifting. you wear beliefs like you wear clothes. try changing them, see how different the world looks. -- 70.28.153.5 00:01, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Summary?

This article could do with beginning with a summary, at least one sentence before the table of contents.

what does 'empty-handed' mean? without the use of props? or without making a fist? -- 216.234.56.130 14:53, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

With out the use of props. I added that to the article. Lachatdelarue (talk) 15:07, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)