Talk:Carl Sagan
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Discussion of pantheism and Carl Sagan at: Talk:Carl Sagan/pantheism
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Talk:Carl Sagan/Subpages
I propose that all discussion from this page on the issue of how pantheism relates to Carl Sagan's views be moved to Talk:Carl Sagan/pantheism. JWSchmidt 19:20, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- .....AND that the discussion of pantheism be removed from this page.
- .....And that people be requested to go to Talk:Carl Sagan/pantheism when they want to add new discussion of pantheism. Maybe there also needs to be Talk:Carl Sagan/cosmotheism or Talk:Carl Sagan/Attempts to cliam that Sagan was religious, a page that would cover all religions. JWSchmidt 14:16, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Oh, please. We're listing the nuclear winter in Iraq silliness but not saying what happened? Now I'm offended because he intruded into history, which he didn't understand. MichaelTinkler
"In a Nightline debate, Fred Singer predicted that on the contrary winds would dissipate the smoke within a few days."
Can anybody clarify this? I don't see how "dissipating" the smoke would ameliorate cooling effects.
Removed text:
- During the Gulf War, Sagan predicted that smoke resulting from U.S. bombing of Iraqi oil and refining facilities would result in a condition similar to nuclear winter. In a Nightline debate, Fred Singer predicted that on the contrary winds would dissipate the smoke within a few days.
It's unclear where this is supposed to be going. Sagan made a prediction, someone else made a different prediction, and... what? Did the facts bear either of them out? --Brion
- I guess where it is going is this: Sagan and Ehrlich's "nuclear winter" scenario always attracted a considerable degree of skepticism from other physicists, but like SETI (his other favourite project) was practically unfalsifiable. Sagan's prediction of 1991 being a "year without summer" on the basis of the same model, provided a way to falsify it. And it was very wrong - according to CRU data, 1991 was actually an unusually warm year. 203.51.99.36 10:56, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)
No Gulf War Winter
The smoke had an effect on local, but not measurably on global climate, thus Sagan was demonstrably wrong on this. [1] (http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/opinion/opinion1991-01.html)
I don't know how fast the smoke was dissipated after the fires were extinguished, though.
Aragorn2 14:00, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)
"His father was a Jewish garment worker and his mother a housewife": this is awkward. Was his mother not a Jew? If the point is just to say that Carl Sagan was ethnicly a Jew, or was raised a Jew, let's just say it.
He was ethnically and culturally jewish. However, orthodox jews would not ever duly consider him to be a real jew, unless his mother was actually a jew.
His adopted religion, like Spinoza and Einstein before him, was actually a form of pantheism or cosmotheism.
According to a Cosmotheist Web site and dedicated to the late Dr. William L. Pierce:
"Cosmotheism is a religion which positively asserts that there is an internal purpose in life and in cosmos, and there is an essential unity, or consciousness that binds all living beings and all of the inorganic cosmos, as one."
"What is our true human identity is we are the cosmos made self-aware and self-conscious by evolution. "
"Our true human purpose is to know and to complete ourselves as conscious individuals and also as a self-aware species and thereby to co-evolve with the cosmos towards total and universal awareness, and towards the ever higher perfection of consciousness and being."[2] (http://www.cosmotheism.net)
Some quotes by Carl Sagan from his Cosmos TV series that do mirror the three Cosmotheist statements above are:
"The Cosmos is all that is, was, or ever will be." "The Cosmos is within all of us; we are all made of Star Stuff."
"We Humans have here on earth evolved consciousness and have gained some measure of understanding.
We Humans are a precious form of matter, life, and which has been groomed by evolution to consciousness."
"We Humans are the legacy of 15 billion years of Cosmic Evolution." "We Humans are truely creatures of the Cosmos." "We are the way for the Cosmos to know itself".
- If Sagan had been interested in adopting the God Hypothesis he would have said so after having said each of the above comments. However, as Sagan's work makes clear, he saw no utility in adopting the God Hypothesis and was not a "theist" of any kind. JWSchmidt 14:09, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Obviously, that "hypothesis" of JWSchmidt that Carl Sagan "would have said so" is just completely without any foundation in fact, and is just purely his own subjective and pov bias against the facts and Carl Sagan's own words. Carl Sagan was NOT any PERSONAL THEIST, but, his own words do clearly indicate that he was a IMPERSONAL THEIST, ie. a pantheist or a cosmotheist, and this is factually true whether JWSchmidt falsely claims that he wasn't or not.-PV
Truth in advertising
At the bottom of the Carl Sagan page is an external link to an article called Contact: A Eulogy to Carl Sagan (http://www.probe.org/docs/contact.html) by Ray Bohlin.
If you follow the link you can find at the end of Bohlin's article the following:
- "Remember that enemies of the faith are lost and in need of a Savior. But even though they may be prayed for and witnessed to by colleagues up to the end, many, including Carl Sagan, will still, defiantly, die in their sins."
The entire article by Bohlin is an attempt to condemn Carl Sagan for being an irrational materialist, a faithless atheist and an "enemy of the faith".
I think it is useful to have this link. It demonstrates the kind of reaction that Carl Sagan provoked due to his philosophical orientation as a free-thinker. However, I think it would be appropriate to label the link with a warning to readers not to be misled by the title of the article.
eulogy. n : a formal expression of praise (to speak well of someone).
The title of the article might mistakenly be taken to suggest that Bohlin wrote a eulogy about Carl Sagan. However, the article simply describes the movie Contact as being a eulogy for Carl Sagan. I can accept this portrayal of the movie as "a fitting eulogy", even though the movie was constructed before Carl Sagan died. However, there is nothing in the title to warn the Wikipedia reader that Bohlin does NOT intend a formal expression of praise and that he instead provides a condemnation of Carl Sagan's religious views. JWSchmidt 02:13, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- I agree. How do you suggest the link description should be changed?—Eloquence 05:41, Mar 29, 2004 (UTC)
- Maybe it would be helpful to change,
- Analyzes Sagan's views from a Christian perspective.
- to
- Dr. Bohlin suggests that the movie Contact can serve as a fitting eulogy for Carl Sagan. Sagan's scientific approach to the question, "was the universe created?" is critically analyzed by Bohlin from his Christian perspective.
- I was going to sleep on it. JWSchmidt 06:07, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Butt head?
Apple gave their product the title BHA "Butt Head Astronomer" as an internal company name, after CS prevented them from using "Carl Sagan". CS sued, but lost. BTAIM, Apple didn't name CS butt head, and I wouldn't call it a honour. So I've delete the line. Fen 09:48, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Here's a quote from one of Sagan's article in Parade Magazine in March 1996 called "In the Valley of the Shadow", also published in his last book "Billions and bilions": "I would love to believe that when I die I will live again, that some thinking, feeling, remembering part of me will continue. But much as I want to believe that, and despite the ancient and worldwide cultural traditions that assert an afterlife, I know of nothing to suggest that it is more than wishful thinking."
"The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides."
His wife in the same book wrote that there was no religious awakening or anything like that, he remained true to his beliefs until the very end.
I think those prove that he was nothing but a model atheist. I think he would consider an insult putting anything else, especially in encyclopedia. --Spec 14:54, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- I agree. Sagan only believed in God using Spinoza's definition, in the same sense that Einstein talked about God playing dice. If he spoke about the cosmos, it was only to establish a sense of scale, not to attribute the universe with a divinity or a real consciousness of its own. He was deeply critical of what he termed 'significance junkies'. --Fangz 18:51, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The Faith Healers
Carl Sagan is listed as a coauthor of The Faith Healers, along with James Randi. I recently read this book, and don't recall Sagan as being a stated author. I believe he wrote the introduction. Any comments? Stormwriter 13:31, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- I just checked my copy (which is the exact same edition as listed in the bibliography), and you are correct; Sagan only wrote the foreword. I guess this means it shouldn't be in the bibliography? Or should it perhaps be listed under a new subheading, like e.g. "literary contributions"? Mortene 16:01, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I went ahead and removed the reference. Stormwriter 18:49, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Sagan's swastika theory
Hello. I've moved some text about Sagan's swastika theory out of swastika and into Carl Sagan. Sagan's theory has appeared in swastika twice, I believe, and given Sagan's notoriety I'm sure it will appear again. However, since the theory is unsubstantiated it seems inappropriate to give it any prominence in swastika. Carl Sagan seems like its natural home, if it has one. I'll let the regular Sagan editors decide whether it merits treatment in Carl Sagan. Happy editing, Wile E. Heresiarch 17:16, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Criminal Charges
"When the biography, entitled Sagan: A Life, was published in 1999, the marijuana exposure stirred some media attention, but no charges were laid by police." - but Sagan died in 1996, so surely there was never any question of criminal charges being raised? I didn't change this just in case I'm missing something obvious about US Criminal Justice, but surely the War on Drugs doesn't extend to dead people...
Nuclear Winter in Kuwait (Gulf War)
Can Wikipedia actually come out and say Sagan was wrong about his nuclear winter prediction about Kuwait? Or should we just cite newsman Ted Koppel as "asserting" that Sagan was wrong? In other words, do scientists generally acknowledge Sagan as wrong and Fred Singer right in this instance, or is it still controversial? --user:Ed Poor|Uncle Ed (talk) 22:07, Jan 27, 2005 (UTC)
- It is probably not wise to call Sagan's prediction about the oil fires a "nuclear winter prediction". Clearly there was no thermo-nuclear war in Kuwait. In his book The Demon-Haunted World Sagan admitted (page 257) to being wrong about the amount of global cooling due to the fires. Memenen 18:44, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Request for references
Hi, I am working to encourage implementation of the goals of the Wikipedia:Verifiability policy. Part of that is to make sure articles cite their sources. This is particularly important for featured articles, since they are a prominent part of Wikipedia. Further reading or "related books and media" is not the same thing as proper references. Those could list works about the topic that were not ever consulted by the page authors. If some of the works listed in that section were used to add or check material in the article, please list them in a references section instead. The Fact and Reference Check Project has more information. Thank you, and please leave me a message (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Taxman&action=edit§ion=new) when you have added a few references to the article. - Taxman 17:52, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)
- I suggest using this method to compile references. Memenen 15:53, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Inflated Ego
I am removing the sentence, "Sagan was considered by some to have an inflated ego," from the Personality section. If the original author can justify this phrase -- and expand upon it in-article -- it may be usable. But as it stands the sentance seems like it functions as a way to subtley slip a NPOV statement into the article in the guise of POV.
It is also unclear what part of the "Personality" section the "inflated ego" phrase is in reference to -- being the first sentance of the section. Certainly, Sagan's marriages are not an indication of an inflated ego. I'd take offence at characterizing any religious belief, or lack thereof, as egoism.
The Apple lawsuits seem like the most relevent example, but the issue could be spun either way: as either a reasonable request or as vainity. Using the phrase here spins toward the later, and is probably inappropriate for an encyclopedia. Readers can draw their own inferences without guidence from the text. ~CS 18:11, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, based on the fact that you deleted the remark without any comment in the article's audit trail, I reverted your change. I then saw this "talk" discussion. To prevent misunderstandings like this from arising in the future, you may want to always say something like "Deleted text; see talk page" in teh audit trail.
- I'd revert my own reversion, but the Wiki database is acting up and I can't see your version in the article history right now. But I guess we can let whichever version stand while this all gets discussed here. (Personally, I suspect I agree with the "over-inflated ego" comment.)
- Atlant 19:52, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
- Thanks, Atlant. I went ahead and removed the line again (with additional notation in the history), as your objections stemmed more from confusion, and not from opposition to the removal. If anyone objects, we can discuss it here. If someone wants to provide content to the article which presents actual accusations about Sagan's ego -- or provide better examples -- he or she should go right ahead, but as it stands the comment appears to be out of a political problem with Sagan's actions and beliefs. I'm not certain "over-inflated ego" passes encyclopedic muster to begin with. Perhaps more delicate phrasing would be necessary as well. ~CS 04:41, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
- One of the interesting things I read about Sagan (I think it is in the Poundstone biography, but I cannot find it in the index right now; however see this (http://www.skeptic.com/newsworthy06.html)) is that he had a CV (Curriculum Vitae) that was several hundred pages long. I read that it included every (even casual) mention of him by any source that was ever printed. Memenen 16:29, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
Ann Druyan "leftist"?
I note that Sagan's third wife Ann Druyan is labeled a "leftist" in the article. No supporting reference is given, and her article doesn't mention this. While she may well describe herself as a leftist, it would be nice to have something a little more concrete. Standing on its own, it is hard to tell whether or not this is just a fact or some sort of POV remark from someone who disagrees with her. Gwimpey 00:09, May 26, 2005 (UTC)
- I suspect that Ann Druyan might accept the label "leftist" with pride. She has always favored education, freedom, and reason as the engines of social change. Memenen 13:09, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
carl's religion
anybody know about carl's religion? i'm guessing he was strongly against the christian right - maybe even atheist/humanist?
- He was very interested in many topics that are traditionally thought of as religious or spiritual matters. He was very skeptical about traditional organized religions as valid sources if insight into questions like: was the universe created? what was the origin of humans and all life on Earth? is there some form of life after death? what constitutes moral behavior? He defended (in print) other free-thinkers who have been persecuted by religious bigots. See his book: The Demon-Haunted World and this web page (http://www.humanists.net/pdhutcheon/humanist%20articles/Carl%20Sagan%20and%20Modern%20Scientific%20Humanism.htm). Memenen 12:13, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)