Talk:Born again
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We should probably mention Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus. -- Ed Poor
- I agree. I don't have time to go in to it, but this topic should be connected with Baptism, pedobaptism, believers baptism. The phrase as used by evangelicals often refers to believer's baptism; churches with a tradition of pedobaptism look at the passage a bit differently, but of course still affirm being born again, since the phrase itself is scriptural. --Wesley
An anoymous user made a very large edit which was reverted. I have saved their version at Born again/Alternative version. The Anome 12:32 Dec 16, 2002 (UTC)
This is a POV sermon from an Anon User who has also made a number of other major revisions to articles regarding Christianity User contributions:80.116.222.134 (http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Special:Contributions&target=80.116.222.134) and created several more that have since been deleted. I don't believe it belongs in Wikipedia. Mintguy
His/her contributions are certainly coherent, if enormous and non-NPOV. I'd like to give this person an opportunity to work with us in the NPOV process, if they want to. Otherwise, if they will not cooperate, we should treat them as a vandal. The Anome
To the author of the deleted material:
We did not delete your material because we disagree with it. We deleted it because it did not fit our neutral point of view policy, where all views are given as opinions, rather than as facts (even if we feel personally that they are facts). This enables people with multiple points of view to write articles that they can all agree on.
Would you like to work with us? The Anome 12:45 Dec 16, 2002 (UTC)
=====Below removed for work. (shortening) We might already have enough Christian explanation on this. Its entirely possible that the below is repetitious of the other... etc...
Regeneration is the impartation of a new and divine life; a new creation; the production of a new thing. It is Gen. 1:26 over again. It is not the old nature altered, reformed, or re-invigorated, but a new birth from above. This is the teaching of such passages as John 3:3-7; 5:21; Eph. 2:1, 10; 2 Cor. 5:17.
By nature man is dead in sin (Eph. 2:1); the new birth imparts to him new life--the life of God, so that henceforth he is as those that are alive from the dead; he has passed out of death into life (John 5:24).
In the new birth we are made partakers of the divine nature (2 Pet. 1:4). We have put on the new man, which after God is created in holiness and righteousness (Eph. 4:11; Col. 3:10). Christ now lives in the believer (Gal. 2:20). God's seed now abides in him (1 John 3:9). So that henceforth the believer is possessed of two natures (Gal. 5:17).
Thus regeneration is a crisis with a view to a process. A new governing power comes into the regenerate man's life by which he is enabled to become holy in experience: "Old things are passed away; behold all things are become new" (2 Cor. 5:17). See also Acts 16:14, and Ezek. 36:25-27, 1 John 3:6-9.
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The necessity is universal
The need is as far reaching as sin and the human race: "Except a man (lit. anybody) be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3, cf. v. 5). No age, sex, position, condition exempts anyone from this necessity. Not to be born again is to be lost. There is no substitute for the new birth: "Neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature" (Gal. 6:15). The absolute necessity is clearly stated by our Lord: whatever is born of the flesh, must be born again of the Spirit (John 3:3-7).
John 3:6 -- "That which is born of the flesh is flesh" -- and it can never, by any human process, become anything else. "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good that are accustomed to do evil" (Jer. 13:23). "They that are in the flesh cannot please God" (Rom. 8:8); in our "flesh dwelleth no good thing" (Rom. 7:18). The mind is darkened so that we cannot apprehend spiritual truth; we need a renewing of the mind (Rom. 12:2). The heart is deceitful, and does not welcome God; we need to be pure in heart to see God. There is no thought of God before the eyes of the natural man; we need a change in nature that we may be counted among those "who thought upon His name." No education or culture can bring about such a needed change. God alone can do it.
If without holiness no man shall see the Lord (Heb. 12:14); and if holiness is not to be attained by any natural development or self-effort, then the regeneration of our nature is absolutely necessary. This change, which enables us to be holy, takes place when we are born again.
Man is conscious that he does not have this holiness by nature; he is conscious, too, that he must have it in order to appear before God (Ezra 9:15). The Scriptures corroborate this consciousness in man, and, still further, state the necessity of such a righteousness with which to appear before God. In the new birth alone is the beginning of such a life to be found. To live the life of God we must have the nature of God.
We are "born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:13). It was of His own will he begat us (Jas. 1:18): Our regeneration is a creative act on the part of God, not a reforming process on the part of man. It is not brought about by natural descent, for all we get from that is "flesh." It is not by natural choice, for the human will is impotent. Nor is it by self-effort, or any human generative principle. Nor is it by the blood of any ceremonial sacrifices. It is not by pedigree or natural generation. It is altogether and absolutely the work of God. Practically speaking, we have no more to do with our second birth, than we had to do with our first birth.
The Holy Spirit is the Divine Agent in our regeneration. For this reason it is called the "renewing of the Holy Ghost" (Tit. 3:5). We are "born of the Spirit" (John 3:5).
John 1:12 and 13 bring together these two thoughts--the divine and the human in regeneration: Those who received Him (i. e., Christ)....were born of God. The two great problems connected with regeneration are the efficiency of God and the activity of man.
God begat us by "the word of truth" (James 1:18). We are "born again," says Peter (1 Ep. 1:23), "of incorruptible seed, by the word of God." We are "begotten through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:15). These scriptures teach us that regeneration takes place in the heart of man when he reads or hears the Word of God, or the Gospel message, or both, and, because of the Spirit working in the Word as well as in the heart of man, the man opens his heart and receives that message as the Word of life to his soul. The truth is illuminated, as is also the mind, by the Spirit; the man yields to the truth, and is born again. Of course, even here, we must remember that it is the Lord who must open our hearts just as He opened the heart of Lydia (Acts 16:14). But the Word must be believed and received by man. 1 Pet. 1:25.
This is the clear teaching of John 1:12, 13 and Gal. 3:26. We become "children of God by faith in Jesus Christ." When a man, believing in the claims of Jesus Christ receives Him to be all that He claimed to be -- that man is born again.
Man therefore is not wholly passive at the time of his regeneration. He is passive only as to the change of his ruling disposition. With regard to the exercise of this disposition he is active. A dead man cannot assist in his own resurrection, it is true; but he may, and can, like Lazarus, obey Christ's command, and "Come forth!"
Psa. 90:16, 17 illustrates both the divine and human part: "Let thy work appear unto thy servants," and then "the work of our hands establish thou it." God's work appears first, then man's. So Phil. 2:12,13.
====Moved by -Stevert Be well.
The opening paragraph is, I feel, a little disingenuous. The original usage of this phrase was Christian, and the primary usage is still Christian. As far as I am aware other uses to refer to similar experiences, religious or otherwise, are derivative from the Christian usage. No objection to referring to the other usages (which are much wider than implied - e.g. born again Cowboys fan, born-again Democrat, born-again Choccolate lover), but the Christion meaning should get a mention. DJ Clayworth 17:38, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)
If the article says whether it applies to Orthodox, or to Catholics, or to some of the various denominations, sects, cults, whatever of Protestantism, or who knows, to Monophysites, I sure missed it. This article sounds more like a sermon than a discussion of what different people believe, or do they really all believe the same thing? 209.8.184.25 04:35, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Cut the following text which seems to have little to do with the subject.
These relate to baptism, and of the difference between the realms of the Holy, Immortal Spirit and crude, mortal flesh. Baptism is the ritual revealing of the cleansing power of the word of God.
In Christianity, regeneration is not a natural forward step in man's development; it is a supernatural act of God; it is a spiritual crisis. It is not evolution, but involution -- the communication of a new life. It is a revolution--a change of direction resulting from that life. Herein lies the danger in psychology, and in the statistics regarding the number of conversions during the period of adolescence. The danger lies in the tendency to make regeneration a natural phenomenon, an advanced step in the development of a human life, instead of regarding it as a crisis. Such a psychological view of regeneration denies man's sin, his need of Christ, the necessity of an atonement, and the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit.
DJ Clayworth 05:19, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)
- I'm not sure how the reasons apply, that you cite; but, I certainly agree with the removal of the text. Talk about "crude, mortal flesh" smells funny. Mkmcconn 07:44, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Alternative Interpretation
It is interesting to consider that those who have a Near-death experience often experience the sensation of passing through a tunnel. Some have observed that as the physical act of birth entails passage through a physical "tunnel" — the birth canal — the spiritual act of birth may consist of passage through a spiritual equivalent.
In the Bible passage quoted earlier, Jesus stated that "no one can see the kingdom of God without being born again." If the rules of logic are properly applied to this phrase, it would be possible to be "born again" and not necessarily see the kingdom of God.
A contemporary speaker might say that one cannot see the Eiffel Tower unless one goes to Paris. But, one could go to Paris and never visit the Eiffel Tower. Similarly, Jesus makes it clear that no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again, but does not explicitly state that being born again means that one will see the Kingdom of God (while that might indeed be the case, it cannot be logically inferred from the Bible text).
Therefore, one possible interpretation is that a person is not "born again" by saying a "sinner's prayer" or observing some rite of a church — indeed, there are no specific instructions given in the Bible for entering the state of being "born again" — but that instead, a person is "born again" at the time of death (for most people), or perhaps for a small minority of people, during a near-death experience or an intensely spiritual experience. This would not conflict with what Jesus told Nicodemus in any way.
It's also worth pointing out that Jesus had responded in the way he did after Nicodemus had said, "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God; for no one can do these signs that you do apart from the presence of God." Those who believe that being "born again" is synonymous with "salvation" ignore the fact that Nicodemus was not asking was not asking how to obtain forgiveness from sin, but instead was observing that Jesus was doing things that he could only do in the presence of God. Jesus' response, therefore, probably had nothing to do with the modern concept of salvation, but rather was instruction for Nicodemus as to what must happen to him before he could see the kingdom of God in the same way that Jesus did.
Note that Christian fundamentalists would most likely reject this interpretation, not only because they believe that being "born again" and having "salvation" are the same thing, but also because they believe that it is impossible for a person to be saved after the moment of physical death (although it is quite questionable whether anything in the Bible directly supports the latter assertion). Therefore, the idea that for most people, spiritual birth comes after the moment of physical death would disagree with fundamentalist dogma.
I removed the above text, as it's really just somebody's speculation.
To the author: we appreciate your desire to contribute, but Encyclopedias in general, including Wikipedia, are not intended as places for personal essays or novel interpretations. Many places on the web will be glad to receive your thoughts on the subject. We are happy to receive any factual information you have of course. DJ Clayworth 15:02, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- Response to the above comment from the author:
- I had already restored the deleted text before I found this page (I'm still learning my way around), however I disagree that this is a novel interpretation - I have read it, or variations of it, in literature dealing with Near-Death Experiences. It would seem to me that an encyclopedia should not just parrot the traditional viewpoint, but should be willing to allow other views to be presented as long as they are not totally "off the wall."
- I would ask, how can anyone present "factual" information dealing with the topic of religion, where one person's absolute fact is another's total fantasy? Again, I based my comments on some of the things that have been reported by people who've had NDE's, a topic I've done considerable research on in the past year or so (just for my own enlightenment, not as academic research, but still...). I'm trying to reduce to four or five paragraphs the essence of what I've read in many paragraphs. If you feel my text is too speculative, I'm open to suggestions for how it might be made less so, but please bear in mind that ALL writings on religious topics are to some degree speculative unless you want to limit text to actual recorded history, or quotes from the writings of others.
- I don't know if you are of the fundamentalist persuasion or not; I had assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that a fundamentalist may have disagreed with what I wrote and vandalized it. In any case, this is not a paper and ink encyclopedia; are bytes of storage such a luxury that a reasonable attempt at explaining an alternative interpretation cannot be afforded? Or do you really consider my interpretation so unreasonable, or my writing so crude that it cannot be allowed to co-exist with the more traditional viewpoint?
- Anonymous: as a piece of speculation your essay is as valid as any other. But Wikipedia is like any other encyclopedia. It's not there to promote novel understandings of things, but to record what people believe about a subject. As a piece of study, if you wish this theory to be taken seriously you need to show that it was what Jesus actually meant, not just that there was some coincidental resemblance between what he said and some later reserach.
- Jesus clearly considered the Kingdom of God to be something attainable on this Earth, not something you get when you die.
- The translation of 'Born again' is quite close to 'born from above'. That doesn't seem to tie in with this theory.
- The only actual relevance you present of NDE to the John passage is that some reports of NDE are quite like a birth in one particular respect. So are many other experiences. Is there any other evidence?
- What you might consider doing is putting all this stuff in an article on Near death experience. It might then be reasonable to link from this article to NDE.
- By the way, it's good ettiquette to sign your name after entries on talk pages by putting four tildes in a row, like this ~~~~ DJ Clayworth 15:22, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- Response: The problem I'm having with this is that you seem to imply that an encyclopedia must of necessity only advance the most commonly-held belief on a subject. The problem is that this could impede the search for the truth. I'm sure that any reference book of the middle ages would have rejected the notion that the earth revolved around the sun, yet that didn't make it any less true.
- Traditional dogma has been around for hundreds of years, yet it is being challenged by new advances in science and medicine (particularly data on near-death experiences, and Dr. Ian Stevenson's research on children who seem to recall past lives), archaeology (the Nag Hammadi library and other recent findings), and the fact that we are getting better at translating the ancient texts (due to being able to use computers to aid in the task). I don't expect that anyone who believes in the tradition dogma to ever take an alternate view seriously, any more than I would have expected a bishop in the middle ages to admit that the sun was the center of the solar system.
- What I have tried to record is what some people, particularly those who've had deep spiritual experiences (in many cases as a result of an NDE actually do believe). In the minds of some, they actually are bringing information from beyond.
- I agree that "Jesus clearly considered the Kingdom of God to be something attainable on this Earth." I do not agree with the second part of your sentence, "not something you get when you die." What would make you or anyone think that, at least for those who have not attained access to the Kingdom of God during this lifetime, it becomes forever unattainable at the moment of death? Please keep in mind that some Christians (though definitely not the fundamentalists) believe that souls can be reborn in another physical body (reincarnation), indeed that was what the early church father Origen believed. So the question becomes, do we have access to the "Kingdom of God" in the time after death, or between lives (if Origen was correct)?
- But then you get into what is the Kingdom of Heaven, which Jesus said was all around us. My belief is that he did want to teach us how to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, and that some of his disciples did manage to do so, and that is how they were able to do some of the same works that Jesus did. But entering into the "Kingdom of Heaven" and being "Born Again" may be two different things, and only traditional dogma has tied the two ideas together as if they are the same event. There is little or no evidence that the very early Christians believed that way.
- Even if "born again" meant "born from above" - and that's open to some question - you still get back to asking what "born from above" means. It still suggests an experience that goes far beyond just saying a formula "sinner's prayer."
- When you talk about evidence, what evidence is there for the traditional dogma? This is all matters of faith, not evidence.
- My personal belief is that if what I have written is appropriate at all, it's more appropriate here than under Near-Death Experiences. Seems like you are saying that since what I have written doesn't agree with your beliefs, it's okay to stick it under NDE, but not here. Again, my question is, is it the job of an encyclopedia to present only a traditional belief, and never any reasonable dissenting view? I think, ultimately, that it should come down to whether the alternative viewpoint is a resonable interpretation, even if an alternative one. If it is reasonable, then it should be appropriate here; if not, then it's no more valid to place it under the NDE entry.
- Finally, at this point I have my reasons for wanting to remain semi-anonymous. I realize that may be a negative in some people's eyes, but Wikipedia does permit anonymous users to revise existing entries, and don't believe I have written anything totally outlandish or off-the-wall. If others disagree, I can accept that but I'd really prefer to see a reasonable objection from more than just one or two people before text is arbitrarily removed - and preferably, I'd like to see some reason as to why only traditional dogma would be considered acceptable, if that is truly the case.
- Dear Anon
- First, and once again, please sign your ID when you post on talk pages. Use four tildes ~~~~ like I describe above.
- "not including new ideas that haven't been tested in an encyclopedia might implede the serach for the truth". It's not a question of impeding the search, it's a question of the appropriate place. Encyclopedias have a specific function, and propagating novel, untested ideas is not one of them. Look at Wiki::What Wikipedia is not. There are plenty of places where you can post radical new ideas on the web.
- My reading of what you were writing was that you associated being 'born again' with death, or near-death-experience. Obviously, apart from the tiny minority of people who have an NDE, that means you don't see the Kingdom of Heaven until you die. Since it's clear that that was not what Jesus intended, your interpretation doesn't seem to be born out. I didn't mean that Jesus taught that you could only enter the Kingdom of Heaven before death, just that he taught that it could be entered before death, which you interpretation would seem to make virtually impossible. If I misunderstood what you meant to write, I suggest you explain or rewrite to make it clearer.
- You are right however that your decision to remain anonymous is not helping your case. Have you ever edited Wiki articles under a login ID?
- DJ Clayworth 18:09, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- Since you don't seem to answer questions unless someone edits 'your' text, I'm going to rewrite to try to preserve some of what you say while removing the worst excesses. Here are comments about what you wrote.
- The first paragraph, the stuff about the near-death experience seems to bear no relation to anything else in the section. Is there any reason to think that there is a 'spiritual birth' experience that looks like this? Has anyone experienced it? Or is it just an idea you came up with.
- The paragraphs about Paris and the Eiffel tower are just obvious. I replaced with one sentence.
- I've already explained, and you admitted, that Jesus clearly thought of the Kingdom of Heaven as something attainable in this world, so he can't have meant that you are born again at the time of death.
- You are right that it is not necessary from the passage that 'born again' means salvation from sins. However the Kingdom of Heaven would be associated in Nicodemus' mind with holiness, closeness to God and God's favour. Nicodemus and Jesus would both agree, from other passages which I can get into, that closeness to God involves absence of sin, so it's likely that the two are at least related. It's not just fundamentalist Christians but almost all Christians who make the association. DJ Clayworth 14:32, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- I have restored the Clayworth version. In my opinion, it is much closer to the "neutral point of view" espoused by Wikipedia. Additionally, our faceless user (or, should I say, abuser) will not identify himself. Mr Clayworth, on the other hand, logs in properly and we all know who he is. Now, to the nameless intruder, unless and until you can write something better than what Mr Clayworth has written, his version is going to stay put. Sorry. Davidcannon 00:38, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- Okay, as of right now I am washing my hands of Wikipedia. If you don't want (or respect) anonymous contributions, then you shouldn't allow them in the first place. Unless Mr. Clayworth is known to you personally, you really have no idea who he is, just because he uses a realistic looking name - I could do the same but I chose not to hide the fact that I prefer to remain anonymous. Now that I know otherwise, I will refrain for making any further contributions.
- By the way, I didn't object to my text being edited to make it more neutral, I just object to Mr. Clayworth's methods, which seem to me to be nothing more than high-handed censorship of a viewpoint that he disagrees with. I'm not saying my writing couldn't be improved, but he basically gutted it. Anyway, this is an interesting experiment but I guess it just shows that Orwell was right - some are more equal than others.
- If he's not a system administrator, I urge you to keep an eye on him (and if he is, that's all the more reason I'm outta here).
- P.S. I have also made contributions under several other topics, many related to Christianity. Please feel free to nuke any you find; at this point I'm sorry I contributed anything here.
Dear Anon: your addition claiming the the born again experience is about 'sexual repression' is what we here at Wikipedia call 'POV': i.e. it represents your point of view, and not a neutral or generally accepted point of view. Please read Wikipedia:Neutral point of view.
Also while the movie 'Saved' is indeed about a Christian High School, I don't think it is particularly about the subject of being born again. You might find other articles that it is more relevant to: Christian school for example. You might also start by writing an article about the movie. DJ Clayworth 13:19, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)
A Conservative is a member of the Conservative Party, and given a capital, just as Democrat is given a capital when meaning a member of the Democratic Party. DJ Clayworth 01:14, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Dear Mr. Clayworth,
Congratulations on being given the right to speak for all Wikipedians. One normally distrusts people who speak in the imperial 'we' because it is a demogogue's trick. There is no 'we' of course because there is no collective consciousness. That last statement is an example of a philosophical approach called methodological individualism. Speaking in the imperial 'we' is also the kind of verbal ploy used by old ladies at Methodist church coffees who are intent on excluding newcomers.
I do think the movie in question is highly relevant to this article. Thus we disagree about a question that calls for the use of judgment.
Have a nice day. (anon contribution)
- Thank you for the congratulations, but I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. DJ Clayworth 01:11, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Born Again
Different religions interpret the bible differently. I have friends who tell me they are born again, however, I don't know what that means. As long as you are baptized aren't you born with the spirit? Also, doesn't "...that which is born of the spirit is spirit" mean while the flesh part of us dies, our spirit lives eternally in God's Kingdom, and that is when we are born again?
- Absolutely right, different denominations do interpret this passage differently. Catholics associate the term with baptism; when a person is baptised, the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in them, revealing to them the truth about God and Jesus, and also providing comfort and encouragement to the Christian, enabling them to live a life pleasing to God. A Protestant believes much the same about the Holy Spirit, though they might believe that being born again occurs at conversion, or at a special experience of the Holy Spirit. Most Christians would agree on who the Holy Spirit is and what he does, but might differ in some of the details. Particularly they would agree that a Christian needs the Holy Spirit to live a Christian life. Many Christians use "Born Again" to mean a powerful experience of the Holy Spirit, which empowers them for God. If you want to know what being Born Again means to your friends, I would recommend asking them. I'm sure they will be willing to talk about it. If you want to ask me, leave a message at my talk page. DJ Clayworth 06:01, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Merge
Please don't merge with List of born-again Christian laypeople. That article is messy, and likely to grow overlong. Also it's really about politics. However some of the writing (as opposed to the list) is useful, and could be moved here, leaving the actual list in the list article. DJ Clayworth 13:32, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Oops. I didn't mean to merge the whole article and redirect. Just the paragraphs of discussion at the bottom. The list itself should stay where it is. I've fixed the message to reflect that. -Wiccan Quagga 06:39, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)