Talk:Bohai
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The complete official name of Bohai's 3rd king, Wen Wang, is mentioned in the tombstone inscription of the Mausoleum of Princess Zhenxiao, which reads Great King Daxing Baoli Xiaoganjinlunshengfa (大興寶曆孝感金輪聖法大王). The first two characters may not be a part of the official name proper, because it is the era name that Wen Wang used twice. The next two may not be either, since they mean "Treasured Calendar". The last four characters, Jinlunshengfa, meaning "Golden Wheel and Holy Law", sounds Buddhist. Are the Bohainese royalties Buddhists? If so, we could add that to the article.
But this complete name does not have any character for "Wen" (文) at all. So maybe this is not the full version of the posthumous name? Maybe this is something else, a Buddhist honorary title used on the tombstone of his daughter to bless her on her way to the Western Paradise?
--Menchi 04:23 28 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Kyong Wang
"King Kyong" came from a misintepretation of Dongguk Saryak 東國史略:
- 至景哀王時契丹攻滅之以爲東丹國
景哀王 doesn't mean King Ae and King Kyong but King Aekyong of Silla. This mistake first appeared on Gaikoshiko in 1910. It was corrected by Jin Yufu. As far as I know, almost all documents except for some Korean ones avoid using this wrong title today. --Nanshu 02:30, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Genealogy of the royal family
On the genealogy of the royal family, Korean scholars as always start their arguments with the conclusion: Da Zuorong was Korean! This is based on the assumption that Goguryeo was a Korean state, but it's not the topic here.
To support their claim, they pick up 舊唐書. It says: "渤海靺鞨大祚榮者, 本高麗別種也." Maybe this suffices for them. They don't pay careful attention to the phrases: 渤海靺鞨<u>大祚榮 and 高麗<u>別種. They don't wonder why it don't use a more common sentence, say, "渤海靺鞨大祚榮, 高麗人."
新唐書 says, "渤海, 本粟末靺鞨附高麗者, 姓大氏." This is an unfavorable statement for them, so they try to negate 新唐書. They claim that 新唐書 fabricated the statement and they speculate on the reasons.
Hey, get rid of any preconceived ideas! Analyze historical sources objectively. Then you would notice that 舊唐書 doesn't necessarily contradict with 新唐書. 新唐書 is right and you can see why the original author of 舊唐書 selected the word 別種. --Nanshu 02:30, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Malgal, or "Mohe," refers to people outside of cities in Northern Korea and Manchuria, regardless of ethnic group or tribe; needless to say, the term can refer to a Goguryeo Korean villager or a Sukshin(肅愼) herder. However, it does not refer to a Chinese han, because they were not present in Manchuria during this time period. In relationship to the New Tang Records, Dae Joyeong is stated as a Malgal man with connections to the Goguryeo kingdom; additionally, the Old Tang Records state that Dae Joyeong is of the Goguryeo kind. This means that Dae Joyeong, the founder of the Balhae Dynasty, is Korean --or at least of the ethnic stock which created the Koreans we know to-day. Even if this conclusion is false, it does not make Dae-Joyeong ethnic Han Chinese.--Solert 5:30, 18 Feb 2005 (EST)
Huh? I agree that Mohe did not refer to a single (ethnic) group but was a collective term for several tribes in Manchuria. But I don't think Mohe included Goguryeo people. Can you bring from historical sources any examples of Mohe referring to Goguryeo people? And no one claims he was Chinese. --Nanshu 14:40, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Nanshu, your interpretation of the chinese characters in these old records is based on modern defintions, you cannot conclude many things you have said. If you did read your Old Tang and New Tang records well, you would realise that the Old Tang Record focuses on the ethnicity of the royal family of Kingdoms --when it states them-- and that the New Tang Record focuses on the ethnicity of the people of the Kingdom. Don't make me pull out the 松漠記聞(Songmakgimun) as what it says about the ethnic lineage of the Jurchen Jin Dynasty. Bezant
- Let us hear your seemingly weird interpretation of Xintangshu. --Nanshu 13:48, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Okay, first of all, most Korean scholars do not dismiss what the new Tang Records say.
Hey! That's not what I asked you to answer. I asked you how to interpret "渤海, 本粟末靺鞨附高麗者, 姓大氏."? My humble translation is "[The] Bohai [royal family] is originally the Sumo Mohe who has been under Goryeo [Goguryeo], and is surnamed Da." In Classical Chinese (or pre-modern) usage, a state is often synonymous with its monarch. --Nanshu 15:13, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
My interpretation is: "The Balhae royal family is from Sokmalmalgal (which is an area, not a tribe) was from the realm of Goguryeo and surnamed Dae." One should note that the New Tang Records classify royal families geographically and the Old Tang Records classify the royal families by the culture of the royal family; so, in this case you are the one ignoring the Old Tang Records and what it has to say. Also, the "Dae" family clan only exists Korea. The family clan can be traced back to last Balhae king. And no my interpretation is not "seemingly weird," you are just too biased and arrogant. I've never seen you discuss in the Diaoyu islands discussion --perhaps you believe these islands are historically and fundamentally Japanese? Oh, and furthermore, you've seemed to "shut up" after you've been corrected rather harshly on every discussion.--Zippie
Merge tables
It would be great if someone could merge the two tables such as in the article on Koguryŏ/Gaogouli. And there is no need to have both Pinyin with tones and Pinyin without tones, the latter should be deleted. Babelfisch 08:45, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- If you're talking about the CJK name table, haven't they merged? --Puzzlet Chung 15:26, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I've merged the two tables now. I'm not sure what romanisation was used originally, but there were some obvious mistakes. I have changed everything to McCune-Reischauer (since this is the only romanisation that I'm familiar with), but always spelled ㄹ as r in syllable-initial position. I've also removed the links that don't lead anywhere. Pages on individual rulers should also be linked correctly with the Rulers of Korea. Babelfisch 06:34, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)